Explaining Why Federal Deficits Are Needed[W:5330]

[OpportunityCost]

There are a lot of definitions for "subsidy". Every second one includes something along the lines of, "a financial aid supplied by a government, as to industry, for reasons of public welfare, the balance of payments ..." interspersed with, "Monetary assistance granted by a government to a person or group ... ". We could literally argue all day whether or not a tax break is a subsidy. I say it is. The government is forgoing receipt of taxes they would normally be due.

"...federal utilities that rely on coal received $1.08 billion in direct cash outlays..." sounds like an actual cash payment (hence, "direct cash outlay"), not a tax break.

Now give the rest of the quote.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Here is OpportunityCost once again FAILING to prove that coal miners are decent people for wanting to work in an industry that is destroying the environment for the whole world. I gave him three shots at it and he has failed.

Yes they are ****ed up. Yes, they are evil. That may not be less than human but it is CERTAINLY less than being American.

Its like the people who worked in the DDT factories. There were thousands of people employed in the production, sale, distribution etc of DDT. It was a top selling pesticide in the nation at that time. When the poisonous effects of DDT were established, the g'ment shut it down. Sure the industry grumbled abit at first - understandable - but they eventually agreed to put it aside for the good of everyone when the evidence was compelling. It was not easy to adjust but they HAD BALLS. They found other means to survive. They made it. No one fed DDT to their children because they were too poor to survive.

This is the exact same scenario.

Not even close. You claim that coal workers deserve to be retrained and society should bear that cost, but it is not working out that way and you know it. That's a smoke screen, the same as the evil argument you are using. Dehumanizing people makes them easier on your conscience to target and make bear the brunt of bad policy because you don't have to worry about them. You know they aren't evil, you are just too intellectually dishonest to admit they are hard working people in a bad situation not receiving enough help from a government that is killing their local economies and giving them nothing back.

Which has come back and hurt democrats because at the end of the day, they are still voters.

 

[Critter7r]

Now give the rest of the quote.

"... through federal programs, tax benefits, research and development funding, loans and guarantees, the EIA found."

 

[OpportunityCost]

"... through federal programs, tax benefits, research and development funding, loans and guarantees, the EIA found."

See, subsidies used to mean direct payments. Now it has been redefined to include tax breaks, research and development breaks, amortization, green energy credits and things that exist for all companies. Its a disingenuous way to define subsidies.

Coal is a net tax payer. They pay far more in taxes and regulatory compliance than they get in tax breaks.

 

[Critter7r]

See, subsidies used to mean direct payments. Now it has been redefined to include tax breaks, research and development breaks, amortization, green energy credits and things that exist for all companies. Its a disingenuous way to define subsidies.

Coal is a net tax payer. They pay far more in taxes and regulatory compliance than they get in tax breaks.

They very well may. But they pay less than they would without the subsidies.

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[Bobbaker]

And once again :

Not even close. You claim that coal workers deserve to be retrained and society should bear that cost, but it is not working out that way and you know it.

Whether society helps them or not should not matter to people who should be decent enough not to destroy the world to buy their bread for today. You'know, if they were as patriotic as our soldiers, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The miners are ********ers.

Not even close. You claim that coal workers deserve to be retrained and society should bear that cost, but it is not working out that way and you know it. That's a smoke screen, the same as the evil argument you are using.

Those are lies. Funny how you can lie and still collect your unemployment check, as millions have for decades. And then you lie about it. What do you think that is...manna from heaven ? Or society taking care of those going through hard times, knowing that tomorrow it might be someone else, even gasp themselves going through hard times ?

It will work out that way if they put the dems in power. In fact, the dems have been saying that that's exactly how they are going to resolve this situation.

Dehumanizing people makes them easier on your conscience to target and make bear the brunt of bad policy because you don't have to worry about them. You know they aren't evil, you are just too

The coal miners dehumanise themselves by their cheap selfish behaviour. Y'know, the one where they are prepared to literally dehumanise the planet tomorrow so that they can eat cake today.

intellectually dishonest to admit they are hard working people in a bad situation not receiving enough help from a government that is killing their local economies and giving them nothing back.

Funny how they say that and still show up to collect their unemployment checks when they come in. Funny isn't it ?

Which has come back and hurt democrats because at the end of the day, they are still voters.

Trump INFLAMED their ****ty cowardly behaviour. The dems decided they were better americans (they decided they were americans) and decided not to stoop so low. And the miners behaved like the unwashed masses of old. That's why the dems lost.

 

[OpportunityCost]

And once again :




Whether society helps them or not should not matter to people who should be decent enough not to destroy the world to buy their bread for today. You'know, if they were as patriotic as our soldiers, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The miners are ********ers.




Those are lies. Funny how you can lie and still collect your unemployment check, as millions have for decades. And then you lie about it. What do you think that is...manna from heaven ? Or society taking care of those going through hard times, knowing that tomorrow it might be someone else, even gasp themselves going through hard times ?

It will work out that way if they put the dems in power. In fact, the dems have been saying that that's exactly how they are going to resolve this situation.




The coal miners dehumanise themselves by their cheap selfish behaviour. Y'know, the one where they are prepared to literally dehumanise the planet tomorrow so that they can eat cake today.





Funny how they say that and still show up to collect their unemployment checks when they come in. Funny isn't it ?



Trump INFLAMED their ****ty cowardly behaviour. The dems decided they were better americans (they decided they were americans) and decided not to stoop so low. And the miners behaved like the unwashed masses of old. That's why the dems lost.

You have your scapegoat. Your characterizations are disgusting but that's why you keep losing. You have to at least pretend to empathize with people to understand their situation and try to resolve it, but its obvious you can't get that far. As much as you dislike it, all people can vote, including the ones harmed by liberal policy.

 

[OpportunityCost]

They very well may. But they pay less than they would without the subsidies.

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They pay more than green companies which are not profitable without subsidies. Maybe we have common ground: a flatter tax code with fewer exceptions is a benefit to all.

 

[mmi]

They pay more than green companies which are not profitable without subsidies

Completely unsupported, and of course predictably so. Where are yer figures? What evidence do you have that green energy can't be profitable without subsidies?

"When they are well-designed, subsidies to renewables and low-carbon energy technologies can bring long-term economic and environmental benefits. However, when they are directed at fossil fuels, the costs generally outweigh the benefits." — "World Energy Outlook 2011 Factsheet," International Energy Agency, 2011​

For centuries the federal government has been in the business of providing billions in subsidies to coal companies in order to ensure company profits. Modern day subsidies to the coal industry began in 1932, when the federal government allowed companies to deduct a portion of their income to help recover initial capital investments. While many coal companies continue to reap higher profits than before, thanks to increasing coal prices, taxpayers still continue to shell out billions of dollars in federal subsidies to these successful companies.

Whether the government is subsidizing the domestic manufacturing activities or allowing coal companies to treat royalties as capital gains (meaning they benefit from paying a lower tax rate), this hugely profitable industry costs taxpayers billions. — "Coal Industry Profits," Taxpayers for Common Sense, Jul 27, 2012​

"There is a myth around subsidies, but there is no such thing as an unsubsidised unit of energy."

He [David Hochschild, a commissioner with the California Energy Commission] said the oil depletion allowance had been in place for the oil industry since 1926, and would be ongoing, despite the fact it was one of the most profitable industries in the world. He cited insurance costs for nuclear plants – met by taxpayers – "without which there would be no nuclear plants".

For natural gas, it was the drilling, or fracking, which had been made exempt from compliance with the safe drinking water act: "That is subsidy," he said. And he pointed to taxpayer funded rail networks that have helped coal.

By contrast, the large-scale wind and solar industries in the US have had to content with repeated changes to their federal support mechanisms. The tax credits have been changed seven times in a decade.

"How can you plan a wind turbine factory or project in those types of conditions," he asked.

"You put subsidies in renewable energy and costs go down" to the point where they are not needed any more. That has not happened with fossil fuels and nuclear.— "The Myth About Renewable Energy Subsidies," Renew Economy, Feb 25, 2016​

Renewables have been stymied by stop/start subsidies that almost seem designed to scare off investors, because none are permanently in the tax code the way fossil fuel subsidies are.

Uncertainty alone makes subsidies less effective. If the ITC and PTC were permanent, renewable investment would be more predictable, so supplying equipment for projects and capital cost would be less, bringing generation costs down. While some investors are able to stomach the risk of buying into renewables projects without knowing whether the tax credits will still be there when their projects reach fruition, most cannot.

Because subsidies for fossil fuels are permanent, the effect is much greater, because permanence provides a stable and predictable investment environment not given to renewables. — "A Closer Look at Fossil and Renewable Energy Subsidies," RenewableEnergyWorld.com, Jun 10, 2015​

In 2016 the U.S. will learn if renewable energy can survive without government support. The most significant tax credit for solar power will expire at the end of 2016, and the biggest one for wind already has. These federal subsidies have provided wind and solar developers with as much as $24 billion from 2008 to 2014, according to Bloomberg New Energy Finance. That’s led to a 12-fold increase in installed capacity over the past decade, helping lower costs at least 10 percent each year.

Combined, wind and solar still generate less than 5 percent of electricity in the U.S. The subsidy cuts come as both industries face stiffer competition from ultracheap coal and natural gas. — "Say Goodbye to Solar Power Subsidies," Bloomberg, Nov 5, 2015​

 

[mmi]

"Corporate Welfare for Coal," Greenpeace, Mar 2016

"Top Three Ways That American Taxpayers Subsidize Dirty Coal Development," Think Progress, Apr 13, 2012

 

[Moderate Right]

No one is ignoring their plight. If they are lazy dumb ****s who are content to destroy the country and the planet so that they can put food on their personal table, even when the country can help them tide over and get new jobs eventually, then they need to be not only ignored, but vilified.

Are they such cowards that they can't make sacrifices? Have they lost so much self confidence that they cannot face an uncertain future with strength? When did they become such wimps ? When did they lose their pair ?

Again, for those of you who have great difficulty reading, clean energy jobs will prioritise those who've lost their dirty energy jobs...if they are not too lazy to get off their butts and get retrained to do them. And everyone given a pink slip here would get unemployment benefits equal to 80% of their income for the next 5 years (up to a limit of $80k/yr) as long as they can't get a job. Its a decision made by the country, coal miners are affected through no personal fault of their own, and so the country should pay for it. All our taxes can go up very slightly to cover that - no biggy for our neighbour. In other words, IT IS FAIR. Another day in the past, the coal miners paid their dues to others similarly displaced by much needed regulation that cost jobs somewhere else. This is called "working together as a ****ing society in a FAIR WAY".




Like most politicians, Joe Biden says stuff that skirts around the edges while avoiding the truth. The real reason the democrats lost narrowly would be this :

http://www.debatepolitics.com/2016-...try-sexism-and-selfishness-lost-election.html

You think all of the poor fit into one classification.

 

[Moderate Right]

Ok, since you believe they are such wonderful people. Then explain to me why they want to hang onto jobs which are destroying the environment for everybody, including their own children and future grandchildren ? Especially when green energy jobs will come into their towns to give them new jobs, and unemployment benefits are there to pick up the slack in the meanwhile ?

And that ultimately, if they are men of conscience, they shouldn't be doing anything that will harm others, period ?

What planet do you live on? These people need jobs to support their families. What evidence do you have that their coal jobs will be immediately replaced by green energy jobs?

 

[Moderate Right]

To characterize them as lazy, to demonize them the way you have...its just a scummy tactic. Green energy does not create jobs. It has been a black hole of subsidies with little to no economic returns. Nor is it particularly clean as the downsides of maintenance in the case of wind and manufacture in the case of solar are NOT green and have not been net winners for the US.

It is impossible for industry to do no harm whatsoever. Men of conscience will want to create as little harm as possible but so should the people wanting to replace industries with greener solutions. Your entire attitude reeks of **** these guys we are doing it my way and I don't care. Now you seemingly want to backpedal but still blame them after you mischaracterized them as lazy. You should be ashamed of your tactics, but I bet you aren't.

But the left are very knowledgeable of black holes sucking the money out of things, never to be seen again. We have already thrown 20 trillion dollars down a black hole. The left are big believers in trickle up economics.

 

[Moderate Right]

My original question :



Your answer :



Here you are distract everyone from noticing that you're not answering my question. Strongly suggests you actually have NO coherent answer. Lets look at the rest of your reply.




Again this point is also not relevant to my question. My question was why coal miners insist on working in a job that destroys the environment. (In the extreme) would be better for them to sit at home and shoot the breeze. Whether they work in green tech or bake cookies or wash toilets or something else or just take an unemployment check, is besides the point. I'm sure you will pretend not to understand that.
People without integrity will lie like that.




Again, you have not made a case for the coal miners being men of conscience who give a **** about the rest of the world. That was the thrust of my earlier question. Whatever I say and however I say it, you have not absolved them of their sins. So, in effect, you've proven that they don't give a **** about the rest of the world, as long as they keep their job that destroys the world for all of us.

Basically they are ****ers. They are physically hardworking, but they are intellectually lazy (thought it was obvious but i should've clarified). Thinking is harder work than swinging an ax - henry ford said so. And they basically don't give a **** about what happens to YOUR environment as long as THEY are fed. Selfish to the core.

Coal miners need jobs to support their families. How cold of you to tell them they should just wither away and die for the sake of the environment.

 

[Moderate Right]

Now give the rest of the quote.

Why should he do that if it proves your point?

 

[Kobie]

Coal miners need jobs to support their families. How cold of you to tell them they should just wither away and die for the sake of the environment.

Horse and buggy salesmen needed jobs too.

 

[Moderate Right]

Horse and buggy salesmen needed jobs too.

Can you prove to me that horse and buggy salesman were left to wither away and die, as you expect the coal miners to do? Your example is bad because, generally speaking, salesmen can sell anything. By the way, your statement is sexist. I'm not against encouraging green energy jobs to replace dirty energy jobs but we need a program in place for the transition. If we are going to take coal jobs away from certain areas then first we need to create green energy jobs in those same areas so that one can be phased out while the other is simultaneously phased in. If other coal areas are anything like my state of Kentucky, there are virtually no other jobs in these areas for coal miners to do if you eliminate their jobs. Most coal mining is done in extremely rural areas where there is nothing else. These people are not freeloaders and would rather have a job than a government handout that will never end, generation after generation. They want to work and their are willing to do a disgusting job rather than receive a government handout.

 

[Critter7r]

Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post

Now give the rest of the quote.

Why should he do that if it proves your point?

I already had, and it didn't.

 

[mmi]

Your example is bad because, generally speaking, salesmen can sell anything.

He meant the industry. Capitalism is characterised by creative destruction, a major element in the efficiency it generates.

The Left wants to help people work through these changes with income support, educational and job-training programs, and smart subsidies to emerging industries. What will a GOP-controlled Congress and a Frump administration offer? More cost-ineffective giveaways to an industry that's destroying the environment. That and rallies with customised baseball caps.

 

[Conservative]

He meant the industry. Capitalism is characterised by creative destruction, a major element in the efficiency it generates.

The Left wants to help people work through these changes with income support, educational and job-training programs, and smart subsidies to emerging industries. What will a GOP-controlled Congress and a Frump administration offer? More cost-ineffective giveaways to an industry that's destroying the environment. That and rallies with customised baseball caps.

View attachment 67211670

You are so right, the American people saw right though capitalism and voted for four more years of Obama with President elect Hillary. there is no question that President elect Hillary will spend whatever is necessary to continue the transformation of America into that wonderful European socialist model that has been so successful in areas like Greece. Providing people will all that they want is the liberal economic model and yes I have taken you off ignore to tell you how right you were and how wrong I have been. the 20 trillion in debt today, almost 10 trillion by Obama has generated an incredible return on investment. the Obama movement all over the country is a tribute to that model as state houses, local elections and of course the Congress now under Democrat control tell it all. The American people have spoken and capitalism is dead. Long live the Democratic socialist model

 

[jaeger19]

Horse and buggy salesmen needed jobs too.

True.. but the government didn't mandate that horse and buggies could not be created or used now did they?

The free market marked the demise of the horse and buggy as a mainstay of American mobility. Not the federal government.

 

[Critter7r]

True.. but the government didn't mandate that horse and buggies could not be created or used now did they?

The free market marked the demise of the horse and buggy as a mainstay of American mobility. Not the federal government.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/09/when-horses-posed-a-public-health-hazard/?_r=0

"In 1818, in an attempt to control the manure nuisance, the New York City Council required that those who gathered and hauled manure, so-called “dirt carting,” to be licensed."

Egads!! Regulations on pooper-scoopers!! One literally had to have a license to shovel sh!t.

https://nofrakkingconsensus.com/2011/03/29/the-horse-manure-problem/

"In 1894, the Times of London estimated that by 1950 every street in the city would be buried nine feet deep in horse manure. One New York prognosticator of the 1890s concluded that by 1930 the horse droppings would rise to Manhattan’s third-story windows."

"…the private automobile was widely hailed as an environmental savior. In the span of two decades, technology eradicated a major urban planning nightmare that had strained governments to the breaking point, vexed the media, tormented the citizenry, and brought society to the brink of despair."


I think the gross factor of horse manure in cities ushered out the horse and buggy more than anything. And I'm not debating your point, I was bored and Googled horse and buggy regulations and came across these tidbits.

 

[mmi]

the American people saw right though capitalism

You wouldn't know capitalism or anything else about economics if it hit you over the head

>>I have taken you off ignore to tell you how right you were and how wrong I have been

How did you know what I'd posted and that you wanted to respond to it if you had me on Ignore? You and yer pals on this board are the most pathetic and childish liars imaginable.

>>the 20 trillion in debt today

The product of GOP SSE policies you continue to support.

>>almost 10 trillion by Obama

BS. The economic collapse in 2008 created the $6.5T in deficits under the Negro. You can't stop lying, can you?

 

[Conservative]

You wouldn't know capitalism or anything else about economics if it hit you over the head

>>I have taken you off ignore to tell you how right you were and how wrong I have been

How did you know what I'd posted and that you wanted to respond to it if you had me on Ignore? You and yer pals on this board are the most pathetic and childish liars imaginable.

>>the 20 trillion in debt today

The product of GOP SSE policies you continue to support.

>>almost 10 trillion by Obama

BS. The economic collapse in 2008 created the $6.5T in deficits under the Negro. You can't stop lying, can you?

You are so right, President Elect Hillary will continue to Obama legacy and continue to address the debt. The economic collapses was indeed all Bush's fault as he totally ignored the Democratic Congress and implemented policies that they were totally unaware of. He like all Republicans are responsible for failure whereas Democrats are only responsible for anything good that happens. I am certainly glad you are here to straighten me out.

By the way I took you office Ignore after the election results so that I could give you the credit you deserve

 

[mmi]

I took you office Ignore after the election results so that I could give you the credit you deserve

No one cares who you Ignore or why. I sure as hell don't. Why do you and yer pals focus so much on it?

Sadly, you and just about everyone else on the Right in the community have nothing to offer but tedious BS.

Why not admit that the Negro's deficits total $6.5T and not ten? Why do you keep lying about that? Why do you Ignore the fact that CBO projected an FY2009 deficit of $1.2T before Obummer took office? I'll tell ya why — cuz yer a RW hack who doesn't have a clue.