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Evolution

Brady

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Why do so many people not accept this well established scientific fact? If you go back 60 million years ago, humans were not around and life on Earth was entirely different than what it is today. Life has changed. That is a FACT. Evolution is simply the model that explains HOW that change occurs. We aren't talking about beliefs here we're talking about facts. Evolution is one of the five backbones of modern biology and is overwhelmingly supported by scientists across all fields on an international stage. Kinda like Pangea Theory, Gene Theory, Cell Theory, and Heliocentric Theory which people seem to have no objection to.
 
Biology is grabbing other discipline's stuff! Evolution is the property of ecology and archeology. Helio is astronomy. Pangea is geology and oceanography.

You biology people need to back off and keep to your genes and cells.
 
Biology is grabbing other discipline's stuff! Evolution is the property of ecology and archeology. Helio is astronomy. Pangea is geology and oceanography.

You biology people need to back off and keep to your genes and cells.

Well yes it obviously spills into the ecoloy and archeology fields particularly with fossils but the process of species changing over time and adapting to new environments is one of the five unifying principles of modern biology:

1. Cells are the basic unit of life
2. New species and inherited traits are the product of evolution
3. Genes are the basic unit of heredity
4. An organism regulates its internal environment to maintain a stable and constant condition
5. Living organisms consume and transform energy.
 
Because they simply do not want to.

IMO, there's a real simple reason I accept evolution. I use gasoline. I know how they often look for gasoline. Therefore I accept evolution as a fact. That and every time I ask a creationist for a single commercial product outside of propaganda, they always run like cowards.
 
Because it's not established scientific fact but rather an idea. No one has proven it and it's merely an idea as to how life differentiated. It's very arrogant and ignorant to declare that everyone who doesn't accept the theory of evolution is somehow not intelligent.
 
Evolution is undoubtedly both a fact and a theory.

" The statement "evolution is both a theory and a fact" is often seen in biological literature.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] Evolution is a "theory" in the scientific sense of the term "theory"; it is an established scientific model of a portion of the universe that generates propositions with observational consequences. Such a model both helps generate new research and helps us understand observed phenomena.
When scientists say "evolution is a fact", they are using one of two meanings of the word "fact". One meaning is empirical: evolution can be observed through changes in allele frequencies or traits of a population over successive generations.
Another way "fact" is used is to refer to a certain kind of theory, one that has been so powerful and productive for such a long time that it is universally accepted by scientists. When scientists say evolution is a fact in this sense, they mean it is a fact that all living organisms have descended from a common ancestor (or ancestral gene pool) [8] even though this cannot be directly observed. This implies more tangibly that it is a fact that humans share a common ancestor with all living organisms.... "

Evolution as theory and fact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Why do so many people not accept this well established scientific fact?
Because many people believe their holy-book and religious beliefs cannot be wrong or in error. Therefore when something such as science conflicts with those beliefs they reject science rather than considering that their religious beliefs, holy book, or interpretation of their holy book is wrong.

If you go back 60 million years ago, humans were not around and life on Earth was entirely different than what it is today. Life has changed. That is a FACT. Evolution is simply the model that explains HOW that change occurs. We aren't talking about beliefs here we're talking about facts. Evolution is one of the five backbones of modern biology and is overwhelmingly supported by scientists across all fields on an international stage.
Evolution deniers have all sorts of ad-hoc arguments against evolution. From rejecting dating methods to claiming that dinosaurs lived with humans. What you'll notice is that most of these people lack any high education in the fields they talk about.
 
This isn't a thread about Evolution, otherwise it would be in the "Science and Tech" discussion area. Since this is in the Religion and Philosophy section, undoubtedly it is meant to take a stab at folks who are religious and voluntarily choose to ignore Evolutionary theory. Yes, Evolution is a proven fact, but if folks choose to disbelieve, so be it. You're not going to make much headway in teaching folks anything if you ram it down their throats, and education is always best when folks actually want to learn.
 
Because it's not established scientific fact but rather an idea. No one has proven it and it's merely an idea as to how life differentiated. It's very arrogant and ignorant to declare that everyone who doesn't accept the theory of evolution is somehow not intelligent.

But calling those who accept God is the supreme Liar and that the testable properties of various objects, items and natural occurrences are lies before your eyes idiots and not intelligent is spot on.

Disgbe, can you name me a single commercialized application of Creationism outside of propaganda?

I can name you dozens of commercial applications of evolution. That alone should suggest to you that evolution is far more than an "idea" and that creationism is a farce.

Does it bother you that there are Answers in Genesis writers who practice ACTUAL science while writing bull**** pieces for money?

How about this, since you reject evolution how about you don't use any of the product derived from it for a year?
 
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But calling those who accept God is the supreme Liar and that the testable properties of various objects, items and natural occurrences are lies before your eyes idiots and not intelligent is spot on.

Disgbe, can you name me a single commercialized application of Creationism outside of propaganda?

I can name you dozens of commercial applications of evolution. That alone should suggest to you that evolution is far more than an "idea" and that creationism is a farce.

Does it bother you that there are Answers in Genesis writers who practice ACTUAL science while writing bull**** pieces for money?

How about this, since you reject evolution how about you don't use any of the product derived from it for a year?

What commercialized products are you talking about? As a molecular biologist I find it foolish to think that randomness produced incredible order of mass proportions. We can't prove that Gene X from a species 100 million years ago evolved into gene Y after 50 million years. It's all theory and speculation. It's my educated opinion and the perfect order of biology that leads me to creationism and away from evolution.
 
What commercialized products are you talking about? As a molecular biologist I find it foolish to think that randomness produced incredible order of mass proportions. We can't prove that Gene X from a species 100 million years ago evolved into gene Y after 50 million years. It's all theory and speculation. It's my educated opinion and the perfect order of biology that leads me to creationism and away from evolution.

Interesting. And what is your educated opinion of what created the gods?
 
Interesting. And what is your educated opinion of what created the gods?

God? I believe God is beyond human comprehension, we aren't anywhere equal with him. God is infinite, we are finite. I believe God is beyond the need for a beginning and creator, but as finite beings we cannot fully comprehend this. Nothing created God, God has always been and is not finite and is beyond finite thinking.
 
If there were no dinosaurs, what do fundamentalists power their cars with?
 
What commercialized products are you talking about?

Gasoline for one. Big Oil prospectors look for large amounts of fossilized diatoms for potential sources of oil and gas. They start by consulting evolutionary time lines as to where large concentrations of diatoms were likely located and in what strata they would be compressed it. Furthermore, they examine the geological activity over millions of years to find where sufficient heat and pressure could have converted ancient populations of diatoms into hydrocarbons.

If you're looking for more:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA215.html

Name me a single thing Creationism has done that is even remotely close to that level of commercialization.

As a molecular biologist I find it foolish to think that randomness produced incredible order of mass proportions. We can't prove that Gene X from a species 100 million years ago evolved into gene Y after 50 million years. It's all theory and speculation. It's my educated opinion and the perfect order of biology that leads me to creationism and away from evolution.

Correction: Student studying to be a molecular biologist. Furthermore, evolution is not random. Every time you claim that is another time we all think you are lying about studying to be a molecular biologist. And genes themselves don't "evolve." Populations do. And biology is hardly perfect. If it was, there wouldn't be huge number of mutations and deformities in nature.

So no, you can't name a single product creationism has commercially derived. Thought so.

To repeat: Calling those who accept God is the supreme Liar and that the testable properties of various objects, items and natural occurrences are lies before your eyes idiots and not intelligent is spot on.

How about this, since you reject evolution how about you don't use any of the product derived from it for a year?

The final reason to reject creationism is purely because it's practically useless where products derived from evolution are used every day. This is a big problem with the internal consistency of creationists. You live your life using products you say cannot exit.
 
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Gasoline for one. Big Oil prospectors look for large amounts of fossilized diatoms for potential sources of oil and gas. They start by consulting evolutionary time lines as to where large concentrations of diatoms were likely located and in what strata they would be compressed it. Furthermore, they examine the geological activity over millions of years to find where sufficient heat and pressure could have converted ancient populations of diatoms into hydrocarbons.

If you're looking for more:
CA215: Practical uses of evolution.

Ah yes, because the theory of evolution exists we can drill oil... This is a fallacy and a baseless argument. Please expound upon your assertion that genes don't evolve. It's the genes that make the proteins, and it's the proteins that lead to traits. What does evolution have to do with geology? Evolution isn't the study of geology, it's within the realm of biology.
Name me a single thing Creationism has done that is even remotely close to that level of commercialization.


Correction: Student studying to be a molecular biologist. Furthermore, evolution is not random. Every time you claim that is another time we all think you are lying about studying to be a molecular biologist. And genes themselves don't "evolve." Populations do. And biology is hardly perfect. If it was, there wouldn't be huge number of mutations and deformities in nature.
Correction, I received a research grant which was only allotted to the top 5 within my university. I lack 2 biology electives from having a degree in molecular biology. I am currently working on and studying 2 genes in 2 different breast cancer cell lines and their roles on breast cancer invasion. Not only this, but my work when completed will be written and published. What research have you done? What education do you have? I don't mean to brag, but I'm tired of the trolling argument that all creationists are scientifically illiterate and having that count as a valid argument.
So no, you can't name a single product creationism has commercially derived. Thought so.

To repeat: Calling those who accept God is the supreme Liar and that the testable properties of various objects, items and natural occurrences are lies before your eyes idiots and not intelligent is spot on.

How about this, since you reject evolution how about you don't use any of the product derived from it for a year?

The final reason to reject creationism is purely because it's practically useless where products derived from evolution are used every day. This is a big problem with the internal consistency of creationists. You live your life using products you say cannot exit.

I'm done debating with you. When you want to debate the facts in a reasonable and respectful way then I'll listen and speak. I respect you and your beliefs, please respect mine. If that can't happen then I have no desire to debate.
 
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Ah yes, because the theory of evolution exists we can drill oil... This is a fallacy and a baseless argument.

Come again? I just detailed how big oil finds gas and oil deposits as proof that evolution does lend itself to tangible commercial products and you call that a fallacy and baseless in a discussion on the commercial applications of evolution vs creationism?

How exactly is that baseless and a fallacy?

Please expound upon your assertion that genes don't evolve.

How are you defining evolve?

It's the genes that make the proteins, and it's the proteins that lead to traits. What does evolution have to do with geology? Evolution isn't the study of geology, it's within the realm of biology.

This is how we know you really don't get it. What does evolution have to do with geology? Evolution predicts where organisms will be found in the geological record. And it does this pretty damn well so much so that it has yet to get any major classification wrong. Creationism has yet to place a single species in the proper layer. Furthermore, my example of how evolution is used to study geology for oil prospecting is a perfect example of what evolution has to do with geology. I gave you the answer before you even asked. You do realize that biology works with other fields of science no? Wow the fact I had to ask that bothers me.

Correction, I received a research grant which was only allotted to the top 5 within my university. I lack 2 biology electives from having a degree in molecular biology. I am currently working on and studying 2 genes in 2 different breast cancer cell lines and their roles on breast cancer invasion. Not only this, but my work when completed will be written and published. What research have you done? What education do you have? I don't mean to brag, but I'm tired of the trolling argument that all creationists are scientifically illiterate and having that count as a valid argument.

Look. Blowhard. How does this disprove anything I said? Hint: It does not. You can claim all sorts of education and awards. But when you cannot even define evolution properly, it suggests you aren't being honest. There's a difference between claiming expertise and showing it. I suggest you stick to showing.

I'm done debating with you. When you want to debate the facts in a reasonable and respectful way then I'll listen and speak. I respect you and your beliefs, please respect mine. If that can't happen then I have no desire to debate.

Look kids. Another creationists runs because he has no argument. I provided a list of tangible commercial evolution applications. I asked you provide a single creationist one. You accused me of being unreasonable and disrespectful. I'll own up to the disrespectful (partly because YECs are entirely retarded) but that does not change the fact my positions are entirely reasonable and yours are not based in fact.

Furthermore, YOU were the one who engaged in a fallacy. I never argued that it was because of evolution we can drill. I argued that evolution plays a role in oil prospecting which I detailed and you entirely failed to disprove. If you want to take the high road, I suggest you don't pretend to be there while you trek though the low lying mud.

It's amusing to watch YECs like you reject evolution and then go about using its products.

Creationism is a fraud. Purely because it is entirely useless in a practical sense.

Creationists get bad reputations because of behaviors like your's. You get challenged, you throw out insults and then you run, never stopping to actually refute opposition or support your positions. Well if my belief required a Supreme Liar God, I'd have real internal consistency issues as well. Real Christians reject YEC. Real Christians don't believe in a Liar God.
 
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I'm done debating with you. Your personal attacks are unnecessary. I am trying to discuss evolution in the biological sense, not the evidence for an old world or the fossil record. My specialty of study is in cancer biology and genetics. I will take my leave from this thread because you clearly are more interested in attacking me then debating respectfully.
 
What commercialized products are you talking about? As a molecular biologist I find it foolish to think that randomness produced incredible order of mass proportions. We can't prove that Gene X from a species 100 million years ago evolved into gene Y after 50 million years. It's all theory and speculation. It's my educated opinion and the perfect order of biology that leads me to creationism and away from evolution.

What is your opinion of the Lenski study, in which E. Coli (which metabolizes glucose) was grown in an environment low in glucose and high in citrate (which it does not metabolize), and evolved the ability to metabolize citrate as a result?
 
I'm done debating with you. Your personal attacks are unnecessary.

Fine. Run away. And pointing out how Creationism is bollocks on a variety of measures is not a personal attack. Furthermore, your failure to provide a SINGLE example requested says much about valid creationism really is.

I am trying to discuss evolution in the biological sense, not the evidence for an old world or the fossil record.

Except that evolution is more than just the current biological sense (you should know this). It is includes the old world and fossil record. I can see why as YEC you'd like to avoid that as it rips Jupiter sized holes in your belief. Evolution is not purely supported by current biology. If creationism was valid like Physics and Chemistry, it should make good predictions. It should provide foundations for commercial application. Creationism does neither.

My specialty of study is in cancer biology and genetics.

Actually your specialty is not support YEC yet rejection evolution and then failing to actually refute any rebuttals or provide any evidence as to why evolution is wrong or why creationism is right. I have absolutely no respect for YECs because they can never support their beliefs.

I will take my leave from this thread because you clearly are more interested in attacking me then debating respectfully.

You? Not really. I'm attacking your asinine belief. YEC is either total crap or God's a liar. Which is it?
 
What is your opinion of the Lenski study, in which E. Coli (which metabolizes glucose) was grown in an environment low in glucose and high in citrate (which it does not metabolize), and evolved the ability to metabolize citrate as a result?

I would like to read the primary research article. However this is intriguing. Bacteria have the ability to share and uptake plasmid DNA that codes for certain genes that allow them to preform different functions. I don't really find it plausible that their current genome somehow mutated and gave them the ability to metabolize citrate as much as I believe one of the E. coli bacteria had the ability to metabolize citrate and that bacterium reproduced while those that could not metabolize citrate died off. I think it would be an example of natural selection, however I would like to read the primary research article to examine their methods and discussion section. I don't discount the fact that single celled organisms can evolve (microevolution), but I am extremely skeptical of macroevolution (speciation, etc.)
 
I would like to read the primary research article. However this is intriguing.

DOI string as well as a link to the paper is at the bottom of the article I linked.

Bacteria have the ability to share and uptake plasmid DNA that codes for certain genes that allow them to preform different functions. I don't really find it plausible that their current genome somehow mutated and gave them the ability to metabolize citrate as much as I believe one of the E. coli bacteria had the ability to metabolize citrate and that bacterium reproduced while those that could not metabolize citrate died off.

As the article I linked states, Lenski's group was able to isolate the individual mutations which gave rise to the ability to metabolize citrate as well as the generations in which those mutations occurred. This was not natural selection, but genetic mutation giving rise to new capabilities for the organism. If that isn't evolution I don't know what is.

I think it would be an example of natural selection, however I would like to read the primary research article to examine their methods and discussion section. I don't discount the fact that single celled organisms can evolve (microevolution), but I am extremely skeptical of macroevolution (speciation, etc.)

Even on human timescales we've observed marked adaptation in animals which we domesticate, such as dogs. We know that organisms can mutate quite markedly to produce both chihuahuas and great danes from wolves. If that can happen in a couple thousand years what chance is there that the animals we see today have stayed static over a time scale of billions of years?
 
Why do so many people not accept this well established scientific fact? If you go back 60 million years ago, humans were not around and life on Earth was entirely different than what it is today. Life has changed. That is a FACT. Evolution is simply the model that explains HOW that change occurs. We aren't talking about beliefs here we're talking about facts. Evolution is one of the five backbones of modern biology and is overwhelmingly supported by scientists across all fields on an international stage. Kinda like Pangea Theory, Gene Theory, Cell Theory, and Heliocentric Theory which people seem to have no objection to.

Technically evolution is not an established scientific "fact". There is a reason that it is called the "Theory of Evolution". There are tons of ancedotal evidence that support evolution but there is no direct evidence of it. That is partly why some people consider it to not be fact. Mind you I am not one of those people.
 
Evolution is undoubtedly both a fact and a theory.

" The statement "evolution is both a theory and a fact" is often seen in biological literature.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] Evolution is a "theory" in the scientific sense of the term "theory"; it is an established scientific model of a portion of the universe that generates propositions with observational consequences. Such a model both helps generate new research and helps us understand observed phenomena.
When scientists say "evolution is a fact", they are using one of two meanings of the word "fact". One meaning is empirical: evolution can be observed through changes in allele frequencies or traits of a population over successive generations.
Another way "fact" is used is to refer to a certain kind of theory, one that has been so powerful and productive for such a long time that it is universally accepted by scientists. When scientists say evolution is a fact in this sense, they mean it is a fact that all living organisms have descended from a common ancestor (or ancestral gene pool) [8] even though this cannot be directly observed. This implies more tangibly that it is a fact that humans share a common ancestor with all living organisms.... "

Evolution as theory and fact - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No true scientist would ever use the word "fact" on something that is considered a "theory". Your link is one of the reasons that I don't like wikipedia.
 
No true scientist would ever use the word "fact" on something that is considered a "theory". Your link is one of the reasons that I don't like wikipedia.

The extract includes two options of rationale for using the word, and supplies references to exemplar papers where scientists do precisely that. Your use of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy belies your lukewarm declaration of support for the fact and theory.
Or are you suggesting that Stephen Jay Gould is not a "true" scientist?
 
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I would like to read the primary research article. However this is intriguing. Bacteria have the ability to share and uptake plasmid DNA that codes for certain genes that allow them to preform different functions. I don't really find it plausible that their current genome somehow mutated and gave them the ability to metabolize citrate as much as I believe one of the E. coli bacteria had the ability to metabolize citrate and that bacterium reproduced while those that could not metabolize citrate died off.

First of all, Digs, I am very impressed with your knowledge, and I think it's awesome that you are studying biology. It's a very rewarding field, even though it's hard work at times, and I wish you the best of luck in whatever avenue you take.

That being said, let me just clear up a few things. The first issue is the ability (or rather, the lack thereof) to metabolize citrate by E.coli. As i'm sure you're aware, E coli is unable to metabolize citrate; in fact, that's one of the distinguishishing factors to identify the bacteria as E. coli. Lenski's bacteria were no different back in 1988, when he began the experiment. None of the bacteria could metabolize citrate (just like any other E.coli), and the glory of Lenski's experiment is that clonal representatives were stored frozen from time to time, so all he had to do was thaw them out to collect any data he needed about earlier generations. This means that he is able to do any other experiments with 'earlier models' that he has need to, and he can detect the various generational mutations that have sprung up. So, if anyone had any questions about earlier generations, he can answer them by simply thawing out a few samples.

Also, you brought up plasmids. Good question - how do we know some piece of random genetic material from some other organism didn't find it's way into Lenski's bacteria and let them start consuming citrate? As it turns out, Lenski's bacteria are strictly asexual. But unlike other bacteria, which are also asexual, but can engage in sexual processes to transfer genetic material, Lenski's bacteria lacked the potential to do this. But even if they could, plasmid DNA (or any other exogenous DNA) can only be taken up by a a cell if it is competent, and of course, there has to be exogenous DNA around. Lenski's clones were kept free from contaminates, and any samples that ended up contaminated were tossed, and the latest generational samples unfrozen and allowed to continue reproducing. Thus, there would be no plasmids nor any other exogenous DNA in his clones for transformation to actually take place, even if Lenski's bacteria were somehow able to do so.

Your concern was also over the mutations. As you know from your studies in molecular genetics, there are plenty of mutations that take place in our own DNA over time - some are point mutations, others can be larger changes on a molecular level, and even others can be large chromosomal changes. Very few of these actually make it to the next generation, and Lenski's bacteria is no exception. The repair mechanisms are very efficient, so most of the errors are corrected before replication begins. However, Lenski noticed that some of his bacteria over time had developed mutations that did, in fact, make it through to the next generation. Some of the bacteria had problems growing on D-ribose. Cell volume increased. And of course, there is the appearance citrate metabolising generations. What exact genomic changes took place I cannot say, as I have not revisited Lenski's study in quite a while. However, given the lack of any contaminants, exogenous DNA, and the ability to replicate this by thawing earlier generations of Lenski's E.coli, what he has shown is Evolution in action, and on a scale where it is easily witnessed within a reasonable time frame. And the glory of the entire experiment is that it is totally reproducible. If someone doubts that the bacteria can't do it again, all Lenski has to do is thaw an earlier generation.

This is no surprise to any biologist, as there is overwhelming evidence that Evolution takes place not only on a genetic level, but phenotypically. For all it's apparent randomness, from a biological perspective, things in nature are actually quite organized. Living creatures have adapted behaviorally and morphologically to the environments in which they are found, and it's easy to see why some folks can take this as being designed from a creator. Evolutionary biology, however, easily demonstrates that this is not the case. While a creator may have 'started the process' so to speak, every life form we see today evolved from a previous ancestor.

I think it would be an example of natural selection, however I would like to read the primary research article to examine their methods and discussion section. I don't discount the fact that single celled organisms can evolve (microevolution), but I am extremely skeptical of macroevolution (speciation, etc.)

The article is readily available online if you wish to browse through it. I also have a copy from a few years ago that I could PM you if you want to read the experiment.
 
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