Ever Happened In Our Past?

[Rexedgar]

Sec of the Army and the Army CoS ever make a statement like this?

 

[AmNat]

Sec of the Army and the Army CoS ever make a statement like this?

No, I don't believe the military has ever been so openly insubordinate as now.

 

[Rexedgar]

No, I don't believe the military has ever been so openly insubordinate as now.

Maybe Trump will get the message?

Spoiler

I don’t think so either!

 

[Rogue Valley]

Sec of the Army and the Army CoS ever make a statement like this?

To my recollection, no. That said, Trump has fired many senior Pentagon officials and replaced them with loyalists/toadies.

There are rumors that Trump is considering invoking the Insurrection Act on January 6 when the Electoral Votes are counted by Pence.

Martial Law would than transpire. To be honest, I cannot see the US military supporting any such banana-republic coup.

 

[Rexedgar]

To my recollection, no. That said, Trump has fired many senior Pentagon officials and replaced them with loyalists/toadies.

There are rumors that Trump is considering invoking the Insurrection Act on January 6 when the Electoral Votes are counted by Pence.

Martial Law would than transpire. To be honest, I cannot see the US military supporting any such banana-republic coup.

If he can fan the flames and get enough MAGA people to DC.................hope it’s an Arctic zone?

 

[Jredbaron96]

No, I don't believe the military has ever been so openly insubordinate as now.

If you ever served you would know the US Armed Forces swear an oath to the Constitution, not an individual.

 

[AmNat]

If you ever served you would know the US Armed Forces swear an oath to the Constitution, not an individual.

" I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

 

[Jredbaron96]

" I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

"" I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

Notice how that bits come before the mention of the President?

The President is not above the Constitution. The Chief of Staff is completely correct. Not that you care about the Constitution.

 

[Cordelier]

No, I don't believe the military has ever been so openly insubordinate as now.

You don't know the meaning of the word.

 

[calamity]

No, I don't believe the military has ever been so openly insubordinate as now.

lol...

 

[calamity]

Sec of the Army and the Army CoS ever make a statement like this?

Is this why Cry Baby left the Army Navy game early?

 

[Grand Mal]

" I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Aren't US military allowed to disobey illegal orders?

 

[Rexedgar]

Aren't US military allowed to disobey illegal orders?

That’s where the sticking point is......I don’t think there is a manual that lays out what an “illegal order” is.

Usually it is follow the order and seek relief after the fact??

 

[Cordelier]

" I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

That's the oath of enlistment. Commissioned officers swear the following oath (see 5 U.S.C. §3331):

" I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."

Enlisted personnel are required to obey the orders of the President and the orders of the officers appointed over them. "And", not "or". The two can't be contradictory. However, the officers appointed over them are bound only to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. If they are issued an unconstitutional or otherwise unlawful order from the President, then they are not required to obey it.

 

[Slartibartfast]

" I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

I am pretty sure that the UCMJ doesn't support sedition or coups.

 

[Rexedgar]

That's the oath of enlistment. Commissioned officers swear the following oath (see 5 U.S.C. §3331):

" I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."

Enlisted personnel are required to obey the orders of the President and the orders of the officers appointed over them. "And", not "or". The two can't be contradictory. However, the officers appointed over them are bound only to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. If they are issued an unconstitutional or otherwise unlawful order from the President, then they are not required to obey it.

Is there a clause in the officer’s handbook that defines an unConstitutional order?

 

[Rich2018]

No, I don't believe the military has ever been so openly insubordinate as now.

To be honest, it has never had to in the past.

 

[Cordelier]

Is there a clause in the officer’s handbook that defines an unConstitutional order?

There's ample legal jurisprudence for discerning an illegal order - notably US v. Keenan - in which the Court of Military Appeals held that "the justification for acts done pursuant to orders does not exist if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal."

If you are ordered to commit a crime, that is an illegal order. If you are ordered to violate the Constitution of the United States, that is an unconstitutional order.

From 18 USC §2384 (emphasis mine):

"§2384. Seditious conspiracy
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both."

The transition of Presidential power has a strict protocol and timetable that is written into the Constitution and supported by statute law. Any order issued that serves to prevent, hinder, or delay that transition would be construed to be an unlawful and unconstitutional order.

 

[Rich2018]

There's ample legal jurisprudence for discerning an illegal order - notably US v. Keenan - in which the Court of Military Appeals held that "the justification for acts done pursuant to orders does not exist if the order was of such a nature that a man of ordinary sense and understanding would know it to be illegal."

If you are ordered to commit a crime, that is an illegal order. If you are ordered to violate the Constitution of the United States, that is an unconstitutional order.

From 18 USC §2384 (emphasis mine):

"§2384. Seditious conspiracy
If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both."

The transition of Presidential power has a strict protocol and timetable that is written into the Constitution and supported by statute law. Any order issued that serves to prevent, hinder, or delay that transition would be construed to be an illegal and unconstitutional order.

The Nuremburg defense, does not work.

 

[Cordelier]

The Nuremburg defense, does not work.

It most definitely does not.

 

[ecofarm]

"American"



Heh

 

[MaryP]

To my recollection, no. That said, Trump has fired many senior Pentagon officials and replaced them with loyalists/toadies.

There are rumors that Trump is considering invoking the Insurrection Act on January 6 when the Electoral Votes are counted by Pence.

Martial Law would than transpire. To be honest, I cannot see the US military supporting any such banana-republic coup.

How would that work, exactly? Would it mean our local pd and elected officials, legislators and even US Congress no longer have a say in what happens? I've heard something about the military holding a new election (good luck with that), but otherwise, what would it look like if we had martial law?

 

[Rich2018]

How would that work, exactly? Would it mean our local pd and elected officials, legislators and even US Congress no longer have a say in what happens? I've heard something about the military holding a new election (good luck with that), but otherwise, what would it look like if we had martial law?

There's never been martial law so nobody know

I imagine a military "council" would be formed and would begin issuing orders to the civilian population (which includes the police) on things like curfews etc.

 

[CaughtInThe]

No, I don't believe the military has ever been so openly insubordinate as now.

 

[CaughtInThe]

all this drama so a Yankee crook doesn't have to face a judge/jury for his crimes.



it's pathetic.