EU worst Brexit fears come true as Brussels warned 'lasting scars' to spark more rebellion

[Ginza]

Ginza, I am getting back to you after beginning to read the Standard Eurobarometer 83 of 2015 and I can address your comment that only 40% of the people of the 28 member states (including Britain) trust the EU. Yes, I read that too but on the second measurement, you say only 31% trusted the European Parliament and I think you misread the document because there is no statistic for the European Parliament. Here is the text:
1. TRUST IN NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS AND PARLIAMENTS, AND IN THE
EUROPEAN UNION: TREND
Trust in the European Union has strengthened again (40%, +3 percentage points since
autumn 2014), reaching its highest level since the Standard Eurobarometer survey of
spring 2011 (EB75). Trust in the national political institutions has also improved slightly,
though it is still at a lower level than trust in the European Union: 31% of Europeans
tend to trust their national government (+2) and 31% their national parliament (+1).
While the proportion of EU citizens that tend not to trust national parliaments (62%) has
remained unchanged, the proportion tending not to trust the national government (63%,
-2) and the European Union (46%, -4) has decreased.

From the above, my initial suspicion is substantiated, namely that people tend to have criticism of government regardless of it being their national ones or the EU. In fact, we can see from this old survey that, as you put it, "only" 40% trusted the European but still less trusted their national governments (executives) 31%, the same lower measure that trusted their national parliaments 31%. So, the EU wins out over their national governments by 9%. In short, the citizens of the EU trust the European Union more than they trust their home governments and parliaments! How about that? Then you have the corollary that 62% do not trust their national parliaments and 63% do not trust their national governments while a much lower 46% do not trust the EU. So, the EU compares much better on all measures.

Your original rant that gave rise to our discussion was all about the English and their low opinion of the EU :

"it is the English who tried to undermine the EU from within with all their rude moaning at the European Parliament"

I have shown you now from two sources, one independent and one from the EU itself, that the majority of people in the EU also have a low opinion of the EU and its economic benefit to them. I pointed out to you that people in the EU saw safety as the main benefit of being part of the EU. I also expressed the opinion that people in the UK had no such safety fears so it was quite understandable that they should withdraw from the EU. It makes complete sense to UK citizens. The "English" are not out of step with European citizens except for their divergent views on safety.

What has surprised me in discussing Brexit is the bitterness of people within the EU to Britain leaving. Whilst I know that it will hurt their pockets as the UK will no longer be contributing to EU coffers AND the UK will almost certainly do a lot less trade with the EU, surely EU citizens should respect the decision of the people of the UK instead of insulting them by calling them "daft", as you did. I don't see the same level of bitterness by Brits towards citizens of the EU.

Perhaps, the aggressive rhetoric of Farage etc has coloured your perception. He has been quite insulting towards various EU bureaucrats. He does not represent the average British person, in my opinion.

 

[Jean-s]

Your original rant that gave rise to our discussion was all about the English and their low opinion of the EU :

"it is the English who tried to undermine the EU from within with all their rude moaning at the European Parliament"

I have shown you now from two sources, one independent and one from the EU itself, that the majority of people in the EU also have a low opinion of the EU and its economic benefit to them. I pointed out to you that people in the EU saw safety as the main benefit of being part of the EU. I also expressed the opinion that people in the UK had no such safety fears so it was quite understandable that they should withdraw from the EU. It makes complete sense to UK citizens. The "English" are not out of step with European citizens except for their divergent views on safety.

What has surprised me in discussing Brexit is the bitterness of people within the EU to Britain leaving. Whilst I know that it will hurt their pockets as the UK will no longer be contributing to EU coffers AND the UK will almost certainly do a lot less trade with the EU, surely EU citizens should respect the decision of the people of the UK instead of insulting them by calling them "daft", as you did. I don't see the same level of bitterness by Brits towards citizens of the EU.

Perhaps, the aggressive rhetoric of Farage etc has coloured your perception. He has been quite insulting towards various EU bureaucrats. He does not represent the average British person, in my opinion.

You couldn't be more wrong in your lack of understanding of Europeans, including myself. In my last post I made the effort to spell out for you how you were reading the data improperly, even imagining that the report from the EU Commission reported on attitudes toward the European Parliament but you acknowledged nothing from my reply. Nothing. You are not debating, Ginza. It is clear your Euroskeptic mind is made up. 52% of the voters in Britain agree with you. The other 48% have been buggered.

 

[Ginza]

You couldn't be more wrong in your lack of understanding of Europeans, including myself. In my last post I made the effort to spell out for you how you were reading the data improperly, even imagining that the report from the EU Commission reported on attitudes toward the European Parliament but you acknowledged nothing from my reply. Nothing. You are not debating, Ginza. It is clear your Euroskeptic mind is made up. 52% of the voters in Britain agree with you. The other 48% have been buggered.

The reason that I have not bothered to argue your points is that they are so flawed and ridiculous. I really haven'y got time to waste on nonsense.

You are bitter because so many British people voted against retaining EU membership.

I then proved to you that the vast majority of citizens of the EU are also unhappy with the EU in that they didn't trust its government and they didn't anticipate a future economic benefit. They did support the EU when it came to safety. This was a major concern for mainland European nations, whose citizens have suffered invasion by Germany and in some cases, Russia in the 20th century and by France in the 19th century. Britain has not suffered invasion in recent centuries.

You then come up with an utterly ridiculous "defence" of your singling out the "English" as being Eurosceptic by saying that many EU voters do not support their own governments, so it is understandable that they don't support the EU. Are you not capable of understanding that a survey by the EU itself and a respected research organisation which asks for yes and no answers to a variety of questions on the EU is totally different to a survey on a democratically elected national government? Did you know that most voters in the UK, USA and many European nations did not vote for their current government, so it is quite understandable that less than half of people surveyed regarding their national government do not support that government?

Are you not capable of understanding that the safety issue that is so important to many EU citizens is not a factor to most Brits as Britain is not only one of the most powerful nations in Europe, militarily, and possesses nuclear weapons, but is also an island which has been a major factor in the past when it comes to the possibility of invasion?

 

[Jean-s]

The reason that I have not bothered to argue your points is that they are so flawed and ridiculous. I really haven'y got time to waste on nonsense.

You are bitter because so many British people voted against retaining EU membership.

I then proved to you that the vast majority of citizens of the EU are also unhappy with the EU in that they didn't trust its government and they didn't anticipate a future economic benefit. They did support the EU when it came to safety. This was a major concern for mainland European nations, whose citizens have suffered invasion by Germany and in some cases, Russia in the 20th century and by France in the 19th century. Britain has not suffered invasion in recent centuries.

You then come up with an utterly ridiculous "defence" of your singling out the "English" as being Eurosceptic by saying that many EU voters do not support their own governments, so it is understandable that they don't support the EU. Are you not capable of understanding that a survey by the EU itself and a respected research organisation which asks for yes and no answers to a variety of questions on the EU is totally different to a survey on a democratically elected national government? Did you know that most voters in the UK, USA and many European nations did not vote for their current government, so it is quite understandable that less than half of people surveyed regarding their national government do not support that government?

Are you not capable of understanding that the safety issue that is so important to many EU citizens is not a factor to most Brits as Britain is not only one of the most powerful nations in Europe, militarily, and possesses nuclear weapons, but is also an island which has been a major factor in the past when it comes to the possibility of invasion?

I actually read the documents you cited and answered your argument. Now you say I wrote nonsense without saying where my observation is flawed. I tried to help you understand that your interpretation of the data is mistaken.

Having told me that my argument is ridiculous, you then accuse me of bitterness because so many British voters wanted to leave the European Union but you are wrong here again. Not that many voted for leaving when you look at the percentages. Almost as many voted to remain. 52% to 48% on such a momentous decision. It was stupid of the Tory government to put such a referendum to the country at large and to force half of the people to give up their European citizenship as damage control against Nigel Farrage and Conservative Euroskeptics. Furthermore, the overwhelming number of Scottish voters elected to remain in the EU as did the electorate in North Ireland. It was a most dishonorable thing to pull on the people who belong to those two nations. The Scottish in particular were told in their independence referendum three years ago that they should vote to remain in the United Kingdom if they wanted to stay in the EU because independence would mean expulsion from the European Union. But this promise by the Tories that they could stay in the EU if they voted to remain in the UK was broken by the Conservatives. If anyone is bitter these days, they are the Scots as well as the Irish. Having built up trade and cultural ties involving many industries and institutions over decades with the rest of Europe, to save the Tory party by having a referendum that was filled with misinformation and xenophobic hostility and then tossing it all to the wind on a wafer-thin majority was stupid.

Nevertheless the Euroskeptics bang on about how bad the European Union is still with arguments such as you present, namely that the citizens of Europe trust the EU more than they trust their own national governments is supposed to be criticism of the EU??? The so-called respected American outfit had a very flawed methodology in their survey because they only sampled a small number of Europeans in about a third of EU countries. I told you this. The one done for the European Commission sampled all EU member states as well as some awaiting membership. Respondents were all asked the same questions and it is telling that they trusted their own governments less than they trust the European government. I believe this makes the EU look quite good given that Europeans have a streak of criticism when it comes to any government. National governments trust 31% as against EU trust 40%! The European Commission would be glad with this result.

 

[Ginza]

I actually read the documents you cited and answered your argument. Now you say I wrote nonsense without saying where my observation is flawed. I tried to help you understand that your interpretation of the data is mistaken.

Having told me that my argument is ridiculous, you then accuse me of bitterness because so many British voters wanted to leave the European Union but you are wrong here again. Not that many voted for leaving when you look at the percentages. Almost as many voted to remain. 52% to 48% on such a momentous decision. It was stupid of the Tory government to put such a referendum to the country at large and to force half of the people to give up their European citizenship as damage control against Nigel Farrage and Conservative Euroskeptics. Furthermore, the overwhelming number of Scottish voters elected to remain in the EU as did the electorate in North Ireland. It was a most dishonorable thing to pull on the people who belong to those two nations. The Scottish in particular were told in their independence referendum three years ago that they should vote to remain in the United Kingdom if they wanted to stay in the EU because independence would mean expulsion from the European Union. But this promise by the Tories that they could stay in the EU if they voted to remain in the UK was broken by the Conservatives. If anyone is bitter these days, they are the Scots as well as the Irish. Having built up trade and cultural ties involving many industries and institutions over decades with the rest of Europe, to save the Tory party by having a referendum that was filled with misinformation and xenophobic hostility and then tossing it all to the wind on a wafer-thin majority was stupid.

Nevertheless the Euroskeptics bang on about how bad the European Union is still with arguments such as you present, namely that the citizens of Europe trust the EU more than they trust their own national governments is supposed to be criticism of the EU??? The so-called respected American outfit had a very flawed methodology in their survey because they only sampled a small number of Europeans in about a third of EU countries. I told you this. The one done for the European Commission sampled all EU member states as well as some awaiting membership. Respondents were all asked the same questions and it is telling that they trusted their own governments less than they trust the European government. I believe this makes the EU look quite good given that Europeans have a streak of criticism when it comes to any government. National governments trust 31% as against EU trust 40%! The European Commission would be glad with this result.

I have already stated quite clearly why your argument is clearly flawed. I have pointed out the fact that European citizens are actually even more Eurosceptic than the British on the benefit of being members of the EU, except when it comes to the issue of safety. I explained clearly that the British do not have the safety fears that EU many EU citizens have probably because their country has not suffered hostile invasion by other nations in the region. You then tried to justify that European citizens are just as Eurosceptic because of some inherent mistrust of government and that their support for their own governments is just as low as their support for the EU. This is laughable as I pointed out as many European nations are governed by a party that doesn't have an election majority so it is understandable that most do not support that government. This is a completely different issue to a referendum conducted on the EU. You don't seem able to understand the difference.

Both the EU themselves and the Pew Research institute have conducted surveys of EU citizens. Both found that European citizens do not trust the EU government. Both found that EU citizens believe that the EU will NOT improve their lives economically. The surveys found that EU citizens are even MORE sceptical than British citizens on these points. The EU citizens vary from British citizens only in that the EU citizens feel that the EU makes them safer.

Now, you even claim that the British government should not have respected the will of the majority AND that the EU should be happy that 60% of EU citizens don't trust their governance.

It's hard not to laugh.

 

[Jean-s]

I have already stated quite clearly why your argument is clearly flawed. I have pointed out the fact that European citizens are actually even more Eurosceptic than the British on the benefit of being members of the EU, except when it comes to the issue of safety. I explained clearly that the British do not have the safety fears that EU many EU citizens have probably because their country has not suffered hostile invasion by other nations in the region. You then tried to justify that European citizens are just as Eurosceptic because of some inherent mistrust of government and that their support for their own governments is just as low as their support for the EU. This is laughable as I pointed out as many European nations are governed by a party that doesn't have an election majority so it is understandable that most do not support that government. This is a completely different issue to a referendum conducted on the EU. You don't seem able to understand the difference.

Both the EU themselves and the Pew Research institute have conducted surveys of EU citizens. Both found that European citizens do not trust the EU government. Both found that EU citizens believe that the EU will NOT improve their lives economically. The surveys found that EU citizens are even MORE sceptical than British citizens on these points. The EU citizens vary from British citizens only in that the EU citizens feel that the EU makes them safer.

Now, you even claim that the British government should not have respected the will of the majority AND that the EU should be happy that 60% of EU citizens don't trust their governance.

It's hard not to laugh.

Where did you get that 60% of European Union citizens do not trust the EU government? You seem to have no comprehension of statistics. I quoted from the survey ordered by the European Commission:
While the proportion of EU citizens that tend not to trust national parliaments (62%) has remained unchanged, the proportion tending not to trust the national government (63%, -2) and the European Union (46%, -4) has decreased.
I'm sorry; I can only provide the argument. You provided the statistical data yourself but you consistently fail to understand it.

 

[Ginza]

Where did you get that 60% of European Union citizens do not trust the EU government? You seem to have no comprehension of statistics. I quoted from the survey ordered by the European Commission:
While the proportion of EU citizens that tend not to trust national parliaments (62%) has remained unchanged, the proportion tending not to trust the national government (63%, -2) and the European Union (46%, -4) has decreased.
I'm sorry; I can only provide the argument. You provided the statistical data yourself but you consistently fail to understand it.

Lol!

Would you prefer that I said only 40% trust the EU rather than that 60% don't trust it....as given in the EU's own survey? If so, you are being ridiculous. It doesn't change the fact that the majority of EU citizens do not have trust in the EU. The majority do not believe that they will be economically better off. Why be so devious?

You keep trying to see what is not there.

You really need to get over your bitterness over the fact that the UK is leaving the EU. Yes, the EU will be weaker as one of its members with a large economy is leaving and will no longer contribute to EU coffers, but the EU will survive.

If you feel the English are "daft". That's your opinion. The UK has done extremely well in the past making its own decisions. I wish them well.

 

[Jean-s]

Lol!

Would you prefer that I said only 40% trust the EU rather than that 60% don't trust it....as given in the EU's own survey? If so, you are being ridiculous. It doesn't change the fact that the majority of EU citizens do not have trust in the EU. The majority do not believe that they will be economically better off. Why be so devious?

You keep trying to see what is not there.

You really need to get over your bitterness over the fact that the UK is leaving the EU. Yes, the EU will be weaker as one of its members with a large economy is leaving and will no longer contribute to EU coffers, but the EU will survive.

If you feel the English are "daft". That's your opinion. The UK has done extremely well in the past making its own decisions. I wish them well.

You are laughing at your own ignorance. Because you do not know how to interpret simple statistics, you mock me for trying to help you. For example, you looked at the percentage of people who trust the EU (40%) and although I quoted the percentage who do not trust the EU (46%) you made the mistake of subtracting the 40% from 100% which gave you the figure 60%. You did not account for the respondents who reported that they had no opinion (14%). You did not have to do your own sums. The data clearly showed that 46% of respondents stated that they did not trust the EU government, not 60%. I had even typed the actual percentage in a different color and put the 46% in bold. Instead of accepting this latest correction you write "lol". You then ask whether I would prefer you to state 40% trust the EU rather than 60% do not??? No, it is incorrect to say 60% do not trust the EU. I would prefer you to stick to the published data instead of doing primary school arithmetic and getting all mixed up. If you want to repeat the number for those who do not trust the EU then that percentage is 46% as I typed in bold. With each post you demonstrate your poor grasp of statistics and survey design.

Given that 63% of respondents (which included the English who are now gone) said that they do not trust their own governments while only 46% said they do not trust the EU, this is a positive result for the EU by comparison.

 

[Ginza]

You are laughing at your own ignorance. Because you do not know how to interpret simple statistics, you mock me for trying to help you. For example, you looked at the percentage of people who trust the EU (40%) and although I quoted the percentage who do not trust the EU (46%) you made the mistake of subtracting the 40% from 100% which gave you the figure 60%. You did not account for the respondents who reported that they had no opinion (14%). You did not have to do your own sums. The data clearly showed that 46% of respondents stated that they did not trust the EU government, not 60%. I had even typed the actual percentage in a different color and put the 46% in bold. Instead of accepting this latest correction you write "lol". You then ask whether I would prefer you to state 40% trust the EU rather than 60% do not??? No, it is incorrect to say 60% do not trust the EU. I would prefer you to stick to the published data instead of doing primary school arithmetic and getting all mixed up. If you want to repeat the number for those who do not trust the EU then that percentage is 46% as I typed in bold. With each post you demonstrate your poor grasp of statistics
and survey design.

Given that 63% of respondents (which included the English who are now gone) said that they do not trust their own governments while only 46% said they do not trust the EU, this is a positive result for the EU by comparison.

It's hard not to laugh at some of the nonsense you post. You don't seem to comprehend how your own posts support what I have said.

For example, YOU write in a previous post : "Trust in the European Union has strengthened again (40%)"

So you admit that only a MINORITY of EU citizens trust the EU but then whine about the English and call them "daft" because they hold exactly the same feeling.

Can you not see how ridiculous I have shown your "argument" to be, by quoting surveys by both the EU and Pew Research which BOTH show that only a minority of EU citizens trust the EU.

I think you can but are not a big enough man to admit it.

 

[Jean-s]

It's hard not to laugh at some of the nonsense you post. You don't seem to comprehend how your own posts support what I have said.

For example, YOU write in a previous post : "Trust in the European Union has strengthened again (40%)"

So you admit that only a MINORITY of EU citizens trust the EU but then whine about the English and call them "daft" because they hold exactly the same feeling.

Can you not see how ridiculous I have shown your "argument" to be, by quoting surveys by both the EU and Pew Research which BOTH show that only a minority of EU citizens trust the EU.

I think you can but are not a big enough man to admit it.

I never wrote that the English were daft because they do not trust their government more than they did not trust the EU government. I wrote that it was daft for their Conservative government in England to have an In/Out referendum on European Union membership. I already made that argument as my first post on this topic. I never denied that a minority of EU citizens trust the EU government (40%) but I point out that a much smaller minority trust their own governments (31%). The EU looks good by comparison. The significance of this is lost on you.

 

[Ginza]

I never wrote that the English were daft because they do not trust their government more than they did not trust the EU government. I wrote that it was daft for their Conservative government in England to have an In/Out referendum on European Union membership. I already made that argument as my first post on this topic. I never denied that a minority of EU citizens trust the EU government (40%) but I point out that a much smaller minority trust their own governments (31%). The EU looks good by comparison. The significance of this is lost on you.

There is no significance, that's why it is lost on me.

What is lost on you is that a democratic vote that elects a government from numerous parties often returns a government that is not supported by a majority of voters. This is the case in both the UK and US and many other nations.

Such an election is an entirely different thing to a survey which asks for yes/no/don't know responses.

If you can't understand that, I can't help you further.

BTW : Your rant did not mention the Conservative government at all, but was all about "English malcontents" , "little Englanders", their "daft vote" to leave the EU, "the English who tried to undermine the EU" etc.....so now trying to say it was all about the Tories is more than a little devious.

 

[Jean-s]

There is no significance, that's why it is lost on me.

What is lost on you is that a democratic vote that elects a government from numerous parties often returns a government that is not supported by a majority of voters. This is the case in both the UK and US and many other nations.

Such an election is an entirely different thing to a survey which asks for yes/no/don't know responses.

If you can't understand that, I can't help you further.

BTW : Your rant did not mention the Conservative government at all, but was all about "English malcontents" , "little Englanders", their "daft vote" to leave the EU, "the English who tried to undermine the EU" etc.....so now trying to say it was all about the Tories is more than a little devious.

In one of my posts I most certainly did explain to you that the referendum on leaving the EU was to save the Conservative party from the threat of Nigel Farage and his Brexiteer followers as well as Tory eurosceptics. A promise to hold an In/Out referendum was put into the Conservative manifesto and when they gained a majority in parliament the referendum was held. It was a crazy idea from the beginning motivated to save the Tory party from splitting asunder. Leaving the EU for Britain was the worst political decision in modern times. Not only is it bad for the British people, almost half (48%) having voted to remain European citizens, but it hurt the rest of us in the Union who witnessed the loss of our valued people, especially the youth, future generations of which will suffer the consequence. It is incredulous that such a momentous step was taken on a 52/48% referendum that had been conducted with so much deceit and xenophobia by the English eurosceptics and all to save the Tory party. The Scottish people did not want to leave. There are only 6 Tory MPs from Scotland. The voters in North Ireland did not want to leave either. There are 0 Tory MPs in Ireland. The whole Brexit thing is a colossal mess.

 

[Ginza]

In one of my posts I most certainly did explain to you that the referendum on leaving the EU was to save the Conservative party from the threat of Nigel Farage and his Brexiteer followers as well as Tory eurosceptics. A promise to hold an In/Out referendum was put into the Conservative manifesto and when they gained a majority in parliament the referendum was held. It was a crazy idea from the beginning motivated to save the Tory party from splitting asunder. Leaving the EU for Britain was the worst political decision in modern times. Not only is it bad for the British people, almost half (48%) having voted to remain European citizens, but it hurt the rest of us in the Union who witnessed the loss of our valued people, especially the youth, future generations of which will suffer the consequence. It is incredulous that such a momentous step was taken on a 52/48% referendum that had been conducted with so much deceit and xenophobia by the English eurosceptics and all to save the Tory party. The Scottish people did not want to leave. There are only 6 Tory MPs from Scotland. The voters in North Ireland did not want to leave either. There are 0 Tory MPs in Ireland. The whole Brexit thing is a colossal mess.

While I agree with you that it will hurt "the rest of you in the Union", I think that the EU will survive. It's no use being bitter. Just dust yourself off and move on.

The UK did exceptionally well for itself in the years before it joined the EU. It joined a common trade area. The EU is far more than that now and now interferes in non trade related decisions as was seen recently when the Irish government had to take on the EU over its taxation policies regarding Google. The Irish won thankfully but the EU goes on trying to take on increasing powers over member states.

Australia has already benefited from Brexit and will continue to do so. Previously, Australians did not enjoy the access to the UK that citizens of the EU had. They could walk straight into the UK and live there whilst Aussies needed visas for a long term stay. How crazy this was when Australians have the Union flag on theirs and fought alongside the British in opposing fascism from Germany and Italy as well as Japan.

I am happy that the British government has respected the majority decision of the British people. Criminals from the EU will no longer have easy access to commit crime in the UK. The UK can control its immigration. The benefits are endless. British people making decisions that affect British people is an ideal situation.

Hopefully, the British pound will weaken to a level where it is equal to the Euro. This will benefit British exporters whilst helping local manufacturers compete with EU products which will become more expensive in the UK.

The economic benefits are substantial but more important is that the UK will have the independence required to make its own decisions. The EU will continue to suffer from excessive immigration.

The EU has only itself to blame for the loss of the UK. However, I wish them success for the future.

 

[Sven Karma]

"UK will have the independence to make its own decisions" would only work if the UK had a competent government with clear plans. But it doesn't.

Why Boris Johnson’s Brexit trade deal is not so different from no deal - POLITICO

There are "245,000 British businesses whose external trade is exclusively with the EU". To judge from the panglossian attitude of Brexiteers you'd have thought there were only 24 1/2.

 

[PeteEU]

While I agree with you that it will hurt "the rest of you in the Union", I think that the EU will survive. It's no use being bitter. Just dust yourself off and move on.

The UK did exceptionally well for itself in the years before it joined the EU. It joined a common trade area.

The UK was defacto bankrupt, so your definition of "exceptionally well" is a bit strange.


Sent from my Honor 8X

 

[Ginza]

The UK was defacto bankrupt, so your definition of "exceptionally well" is a bit strange.


Sent from my Honor 8X

Lol! I love your use of the word "de facto". It's so misleading. Many nations borrow money. The UK is no different.

In an article by US News, the UK was rated 6th in terms of "Best countries" to live.

The Guardian reported that the UK is the third most respected country : USA tops list of the world's most diplomatically influential countries, with Britain third | Daily Mail Online

Exceptional achievement for a small island with few natural resources.

 

[Ginza]

"UK will have the independence to make its own decisions" would only work if the UK had a competent government with clear plans. But it doesn't.

Why Boris Johnson’s Brexit trade deal is not so different from no deal - POLITICO

There are "245,000 British businesses whose external trade is exclusively with the EU". To judge from the panglossian attitude of Brexiteers you'd have thought there were only 24 1/2.

As one who would be delighted with a "No Deal", that is great news.

I note that there is not link to prove the claim that 245 000 British businesses trade exclusively with the EU. I am not surprised.

The UK has punched above its weight for centuries. It's currently highly respected and successful as my links in a previous post show. The UK has obviously had a competent government for many years, although the usual haters and sour faces will never admit that fact.

 

[Jean-s]

As one who would be delighted with a "No Deal", that is great news. ...

I recognized from your first post that you were a Brexiteer when you attempted to tar the rest of Europeans as being infected with the same poison as English euroscepticism. It is good you are happy unlike almost half the British voters. I predict Brexit in no time will be seen by the majority of the English as the dopiest decision by their government in modern times.

 

[Ginza]

I recognized from your first post that you were a Brexiteer when you attempted to tar the rest of Europeans as being infected with the same poison as English euroscepticism. It is good you are happy unlike almost half the British voters. I predict Brexit in no time will be seen by the majority of the English as the dopiest decision by their government in modern times.

You really need to read up and stop posting things that aren't true :

"the dopiest decision by their government"

The decision to leave was made by voters in a referendum which the "government" had promised to honour. Surely you're heard of the referendum?

"when you attempted to tar the rest of Europeans as being infected with the same poison as English euroscepticism"

I merely corrected your fantasy that it was only the English who were Eurosceptic by linking you to surveys from the EU itself and the respected Pew Research Centre which both showed that only 40% of EU citizens had trust in the EU. Which is actually a lower percentage than the percentage of Brits that voted to remain in the EU.

But if you don't want the facts to interfere with your rant about how "daft" or "dopey" the English are, it's OK with me. I just hope you get over your bitterness and enjoy living with all the illegal immigrants who have entered the EU, but are now finding it really difficult to enter the UK.

It's not all about money to the British, it's also about being independent and being able to determine who comes into their country.

I hope EU citizens do not suffer too much from the British exit. Although this German MEP claims the UK will save 72 billion pounds by leaving the EU :

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=german+mep+72+billion

Maybe the British aren't so dopey as you like to claim.

 

[Jean-s]

You really need to read up and stop posting things that aren't true :

"the dopiest decision by their government"

The decision to leave was made by voters in a referendum which the "government" had promised to honour. Surely you're heard of the referendum?

"when you attempted to tar the rest of Europeans as being infected with the same poison as English euroscepticism"

I merely corrected your fantasy that it was only the English who were Eurosceptic by linking you to surveys from the EU itself and the respected Pew Research Centre which both showed that only 40% of EU citizens had trust in the EU. Which is actually a lower percentage than the percentage of Brits that voted to remain in the EU.

But if you don't want the facts to interfere with your rant about how "daft" or "dopey" the English are, it's OK with me. I just hope you get over your bitterness and enjoy living with all the illegal immigrants who have entered the EU, but are now finding it really difficult to enter the UK.

It's not all about money to the British, it's also about being independent and being able to determine who comes into their country.

I hope EU citizens do not suffer too much from the British exit. Although this German MEP claims the UK will save 72 billion pounds by leaving the EU :

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=german+mep+72+billion

Maybe the British aren't so dopey as you like to claim.

The decision to hold a referendum was made by the Conservative Party and it was stupid. Once put to the people anything could happen and it did.

Not trusting the European Commission (46%) is altogether a different question from wanting to leave.

We don't have illegal immigrants in the EU. We do have asylum seekers who have a right in international law to seek asylum. This has nothing to do with EU membership although hatred of foreigners was used by Nigel Farage to appeal to the xenophobic English working class to stop freedom of movement for workers from Europe. You think the same as them. The irony is that the English have relied on European workers to keep their economy going over several decades. I agree it is not all about money. I believe Brexit was not about money at all. Forgive me, therefore, for not bothering to watch one German MEP claiming that the English will be saving billions and billions. Ha! We will see about that.

 

[Chagos]

Lol! I love your use of the word "de facto". It's so misleading. Many nations borrow money. The UK is no different.

In an article by US News, the UK was rated 6th in terms of "Best countries" to live.

The Guardian reported that the UK is the third most respected country : USA tops list of the world's most diplomatically influential countries, with Britain third | Daily Mail Online

Exceptional achievement for a small island with few natural resources.

You claim that the UK was doing exceptionally well in 1973 (when it joined the then EEC) and when it is pointed out how the UK was "the sick man of Europe" in those days, counter this with an article that describes the UK of 2020.

You really hold that to be clever?

 

[Chagos]

~................. Although this German MEP claims the UK will save 72 billion pounds by leaving the EU :

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=german+mep+72+billion

Maybe the British aren't so dopey as you like to claim.

Oh whoopee, quoting a totally insignificant member of what can safely be called a Nazi party while, that notwithstanding, providing absolutely no context over what he was actually addressing.:roll:

 

[Ginza]

Oh whoopee, quoting a totally insignificant member of what can safely be called a Nazi party while, that notwithstanding, providing absolutely no context over what he was actually addressing.:roll:

Lol! Do you need spoon feeding?

I thought this was an adult forum.

Ask Mom to link you to several other sites that quote exactly the same figure....a whopping 72 billion pounds saved!!!!

And there are Nazi MEP's? Wow! That's even more reason to pull out of the EU....if it wasn't just a silly exaggeration, of course.

 

[Ginza]

You claim that the UK was doing exceptionally well in 1973 (when it joined the then EEC) and when it is pointed out how the UK was "the sick man of Europe" in those days, counter this with an article that describes the UK of 2020.

You really hold that to be clever?

Why lie? I didn't even mention 1973. I mentioned that it did exceptionally well in the years BEFORE it joined the EU.

One can only hold that to be dishonest.

Ask Mom to explain to you the difference between the year 1973 and a period of many years.

The UK was indeed exceptionally successful. In the years leading up to joining the EU it was an influential world power that had twice helped stop German aggression in Europe. One can only wonder what would have happened to many European nations if Britain had not been used as a springboard by the Allies to free Europe. Perhaps the Russians would have taken over ALL of Europe.

So you see, success is not all about money and neither is Brexit. It was about having more control over UK borders and retaining independent decision making. Today, the EU is even interfering in the local taxation of members states and, horror of horrors, even talking of having its own army.

The UK joined a free trade zone. That is not what the EU is today.

 

[Ginza]

The decision to hold a referendum was made by the Conservative Party and it was stupid. Once put to the people anything could happen and it did.

Not trusting the European Commission (46%) is altogether a different question from wanting to leave.

We don't have illegal immigrants in the EU. We do have asylum seekers who have a right in international law to seek asylum. This has nothing to do with EU membership although hatred of foreigners was used by Nigel Farage to appeal to the xenophobic English working class to stop freedom of movement for workers from Europe. You think the same as them. The irony is that the English have relied on European workers to keep their economy going over several decades. I agree it is not all about money. I believe Brexit was not about money at all. Forgive me, therefore, for not bothering to watch one German MEP claiming that the English will be saving billions and billions. Ha! We will see about that.

"Once put to the people anything could happen and it did."

Wow! You sound like Stalin, Mao or even Saddam Hussein. They would have loved you.

"Not trusting the European Commission (46%) is altogether a different question from wanting to leave."

Er, obviously so. But they are totally unanimous in one thing......their lack of trust in the government of the EU. Surely, even someone as bitter as yourself can't deny that?

"We don't have illegal immigrants in the EU. We do have asylum seekers"

Did you really say something so daft? The EU has millions of people who have entered the EU illegally to seek asylum.

"A new Pew Research Center analysis based on European data sources estimates that at least 3.9 million unauthorized immigrants – and possibly as many as 4.8 million – lived in Europe in 2017. The total is up from 2014, when 3.0 million to 3.7 million unauthorised migrants lived in Europe"

Hmmmm! Seems that Pew are not as "generous" as you are with their words. They are calling these people exactly what they are.