EU worst Brexit fears come true as Brussels warned 'lasting scars' to spark more rebellion

[Sven Karma]

see here ... yet again you keep mentioning the "B" word most people in Englonde know the union will be no more soon ... London does not speak for Scotland

A lot of people in Englonde still think Englonde=Great Britain=United Kingdom and it's hard work dislodging that notion from their little queen and country heads. The concept of 'non-union' is beyond their ken, or they are in denial about its implications.

 

[Sven Karma]

But why blame the English, if as you admit, Greek economists and Hungarians etc also admit that the EU is failing and the respected survey I quoted from the Pew Research Centre (a US organisation) produces results which show that 62% of people in the EU feel that the EU does not understand the needs of its citizens, 54% felt that the EU is inefficient, most felt the EU was intrusive and only 55% felt that it promoted prosperity. A median of 58% believe that when children in their country grow up, they will be worse off financially than their parents; only 30% think they will be better off.

The main benefit shown by the survey, appears to be that the EU promotes peace and security. Most EU states have been invaded by the two most powerful EU states, France and Germany, in the past two centuries or so, with horrific consequences, so one can hardly blame them for seeing huge benefit in such a Union.

The UK has not been invaded and, conversely, played a large part in freeing those states who were oppressed. They don't share the fears of other EU states regarding future invasion.

The "English" appear to be fully justified in their scepticism of the EU. Perhaps that chip on your shoulder regarding the "English" should be attended to.

'only 55% felt that it promoted prosperity'. That's called a majority, no?

The 'English' are, uh, delusional in the main. Brexit is the new Songbun.

 

[Godric1970]

A lot of people in Englonde still think Englonde=Great Britain=United Kingdom and it's hard work dislodging that notion from their little queen and country heads. The concept of 'non-union' is beyond their ken, or they are in denial about its implications.

Englonde is auld Scots for England and Fruanc = France ... the union wiped out 1 of our two languages and almost wiped out the 2nd Gàidhlig ... this will show how understanding and benevolent the Union was/is with Scotland speaking Gàidhlig in school grounds was punishable with being hit several times with a cane for the crime of speaking there ain language ... the forced removal of Highland Scots from there ancestral lands via a series of clearances instigated and supported by London all because they were deemed a threat "to the union"

 

[Ginza]

'only 55% felt that it promoted prosperity'. That's called a majority, no?

The 'English' are, uh, delusional in the main. Brexit is the new Songbun.

55% is a majority but are you not aware that "promoting prosperity" is not the same as achieving prosperity. Words mean little.

If you read the statistics about how EU members see the future of their children, you would have seen that "only 30% think they will be better off."

So the respondents obviously believe that the EU attempts to promote prosperity will NOT work.

As for you insulting the "English" by claiming that they are "delusional". They have done pretty well for themselves over the years in terms of influencing global thinking and done pretty well in helping to save Europe from French and German invasion. They have always punched above their weight.

I find that much of the criticism of the English is more due to envy and jealousy, than any other factor. Especially now that they have decided to leave the EU.

 

[Ginza]

a massive boost wait till we start campaigning

The SNP did not even achieve a majority of votes in Scotland at the last election...and at the last independence referendum, independence was rejected.

You need to up your game, laddie.

 

[Jean-s]

But why blame the English, if as you admit, Greek economists and Hungarians etc also admit that the EU is failing and the respected survey I quoted from the Pew Research Centre (a US organisation) produces results which show that 62% of people in the EU feel that the EU does not understand the needs of its citizens, 54% felt that the EU is inefficient, most felt the EU was intrusive and only 55% felt that it promoted prosperity. A median of 58% believe that when children in their country grow up, they will be worse off financially than their parents; only 30% think they will be better off.

The main benefit shown by the survey, appears to be that the EU promotes peace and security. Most EU states have been invaded by the two most powerful EU states, France and Germany, in the past two centuries or so, with horrific consequences, so one can hardly blame them for seeing huge benefit in such a Union.

The UK has not been invaded and, conversely, played a large part in freeing those states who were oppressed. They don't share the fears of other EU states regarding future invasion.

The "English" appear to be fully justified in their scepticism of the EU. Perhaps that chip on your shoulder regarding the "English" should be attended to.

Your sensitivity at being identified as English suggests to me that you are a typical English Eurosceptic. I notice that you use an English spelling for the American Pew Research Center. Now, how do you suppose that happened, I wonder. Maybe you live in Wales. Ha! Ha!

 

[Godric1970]

The SNP did not even achieve a majority of votes in Scotland at the last election...and at the last independence referendum, independence was rejected.

You need to up your game, laddie.

54% support Independence now ... support for SNP is at 55% we are even campaigning yet and in 2014 we lost due to promises made by the 3 unionist party leaders promises they never kept so it won't work a 2nd time ... the UK is finished ... London is in total panic mode

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

The SNP did not even achieve a majority of votes in Scotland at the last election...and at the last independence referendum, independence was rejected.

You need to up your game, laddie.

That was in part due to Scotland being told it would have to apply for membership rather than get it automatically in the EU. That could and likely have been blocked by Spain at the time, who is dealing with its own separatist movement. Once the UK leaves the EU, Spanish opposition to accepting Scotland would be low. Scotland wanted to remain in the EU, leaving the UK meant it would have been out of the EU. That is no longer the case. Scotland can hopefully soon be free from the English jackboots

 

[Ginza]

That was in part due to Scotland being told it would have to apply for membership rather than get it automatically in the EU. That could and likely have been blocked by Spain at the time, who is dealing with its own separatist movement. Once the UK leaves the EU, Spanish opposition to accepting Scotland would be low. Scotland wanted to remain in the EU, leaving the UK meant it would have been out of the EU. That is no longer the case. Scotland can hopefully soon be free from the English jackboots

I don't agree. Scottish voters mostly decided not to vote for the SNP because they want to still be part of a strong economy like the UK rather than be a largely ignored and irrelevant backwater. They voted against independence when an independence referendum was held, for the same reason.

Scots also realise that they export more than FOUR times (63%) as much to the rest of the UK than they do to the EU (13%). The Scots know which side their bread is buttered on.

Sure there are some bitter "little Scotlanders" who want independence. But they've been around for hundreds of years. Ask William Wallace.

 

[Ginza]

54% support Independence now ... support for SNP is at 55% we are even campaigning yet and in 2014 we lost due to promises made by the 3 unionist party leaders promises they never kept so it won't work a 2nd time ... the UK is finished ... London is in total panic mode

Talk is cheap. The SNP achieved only 45% of the vote at the 2019 election last year. When they have a majority at election time, they will have some justification for another independence referendum.

As for London being in total panic mode. That's hilarious. The Tories would be delighted if they no longer had to deal with opposition from the SNP in parliament. Their hold on power would be immensely strengthened. I lived in the UK for ten years and can assure you that most Londoners could nor care less whether the Scots leave the Union or not. They will respect the wishes of the majority of Scots. Whether they leave or go will not change their lives as they will still be able to visit Scotland whenever they please.

 

[Ginza]

Your sensitivity at being identified as English suggests to me that you are a typical English Eurosceptic. I notice that you use an English spelling for the American Pew Research Center. Now, how do you suppose that happened, I wonder. Maybe you live in Wales. Ha! Ha!

Your imagination runs riot.....but produces little of substance. I actually live in Australia, but some time ago spent ten years in the UK.

Why not attempt to answer the points I made instead of festering over my nationality? That chip on your shoulder regarding the "English" gets bigger by the post and doesn't reflect well on you.

 

[Ginza]

Presently we have Nigel Farage bigging up the Italexit party, riding high with 5% of the vote and a leader too wacky even for Five Star: Italexit SURGE: EU on alert as Farage inspires new party | Politics | News | Express.co.uk

I am sure that Farage would love to take all the credit for the increase in Euroskepticism but the fact is that the European voters are really to blame :

"Euroskeptics are a bigger presence in the European Parliament than in past"

Euroskepticism is growing in the European Parliament | Pew Research Center

 

[Jean-s]

Your imagination runs riot.....but produces little of substance. I actually live in Australia, but some time ago spent ten years in the UK.

Why not attempt to answer the points I made instead of festering over my nationality? That chip on your shoulder regarding the "English" gets bigger by the post and doesn't reflect well on you.

Ten years in the so-called UK. Australia is sort of a colony of the English I understand. You have their flag on yours and even have the Queen of England as your Head of State. You probably like the idea of Brexit given that England will be having lots of trade with Australia as a result of having no access to the European single market.

 

[Jean-s]

I am sure that Farage would love to take all the credit for the increase in Euroskepticism but the fact is that the European voters are really to blame :

"Euroskeptics are a bigger presence in the European Parliament than in past"

Euroskepticism is growing in the European Parliament | Pew Research Center

I see you are quoting the American Pew Research Center or Centre if you like. But you are attempting to create a false impression that the European Parliament is choc-a-block with members who hate the European Union and that this number is growing but the increase in Euroskeptics according to your citation is 1% and that number included the Nigel Farage group of Little Englanders and some anti-EU Tories which actually made up the majority of English MEPs. With them gone the percentage of Euroskeptics has reduced contrary to your claim. Secondly, the Pew people cannot even decide what a Euroskeptic is and they count not only malcontents who wanted out but even those who think that the EU needs improvement which they define as "soft" Euroskeptics, making a grand total of 29%. What system is perfect and above criticism? So, it is clear that you've got the wrong end of the stick.

 

[Ginza]

Ten years in the so-called UK. Australia is sort of a colony of the English I understand. You have their flag on yours and even have the Queen of England as your Head of State. You probably like the idea of Brexit given that England will be having lots of trade with Australia as a result of having no access to the European single market.

Your understanding couldn't be more wrong on several counts :

1) We are not a colony of anyone. Yes, we do have ongoing ties with Britain. Why not? They are a great nation who have stood by us in the past.

2) We do have access to the EU. In fact, the EU is our second biggest trading partner after China....although this will obviously decrease when Brexit is finalised and we deal with the UK directly. We are currently well into negotiating a free trade deal with the EU.

It would probably be astute for you to check your facts, before posting.

 

[Ginza]

I see you are quoting the American Pew Research Center or Centre if you like. But you are attempting to create a false impression that the European Parliament is choc-a-block with members who hate the European Union and that this number is growing but the increase in Euroskeptics according to your citation is 1% and that number included the Nigel Farage group of Little Englanders and some anti-EU Tories which actually made up the majority of English MEPs. With them gone the percentage of Euroskeptics has reduced contrary to your claim. Secondly, the Pew people cannot even decide what a Euroskeptic is and they count not only malcontents who wanted out but even those who think that the EU needs improvement which they define as "soft" Euroskeptics, making a grand total of 29%. What system is perfect and above criticism? So, it is clear that you've got the wrong end of the stick.

I wasn't attempting to create any impression at all. I merely ridiculed your anti-English rant by quoting a survey which showed that the main reason that most people in the EU want to remain in the EU is for safety reasons that have nothing to do with economics. Most respondents to the survey believe that the EU is inefficient, doesn't address the needs of members and will lead to their children being less well off in future.

This criticism of the EU came from the results of surveys in 10 European nations.....not just the UK.

Get that chip on your shoulder attended to.

 

[Godric1970]

Talk is cheap. The SNP achieved only 45% of the vote at the 2019 election last year. When they have a majority at election time, they will have some justification for another independence referendum.

As for London being in total panic mode. That's hilarious. The Tories would be delighted if they no longer had to deal with opposition from the SNP in parliament. Their hold on power would be immensely strengthened. I lived in the UK for ten years and can assure you that most Londoners could nor care less whether the Scots leave the Union or not. They will respect the wishes of the majority of Scots. Whether they leave or go will not change their lives as they will still be able to visit Scotland whenever they please.

things have changed in the past 7 months support for Indy has risen and continues to rise same with the support for the SNP Boris Johnson has been a great appointment for the SNP ... he is our biggest cheerleader along with his pal Cummings

 

[Jean-s]

Your understanding couldn't be more wrong on several counts :

1) We are not a colony of anyone. Yes, we do have ongoing ties with Britain. Why not? They are a great nation who have stood by us in the past.

2) We do have access to the EU. In fact, the EU is our second biggest trading partner after China....although this will obviously decrease when Brexit is finalised and we deal with the UK directly. We are currently well into negotiating a free trade deal with the EU.

It would probably be astute for you to check your facts, before posting.

You underplay your connection to England. The Governor of Australia is appointed by the Queen of England and he can fire your prime minister. In fact he did so a while back. "Australia's 1975 shutdown ended pretty differently, though, than they do here in America. Queen Elizabeth II's official representative in Australia, Governor General Sir John Kerr, simply dismissed the prime minister." How is this different from being a colony, it must be asked.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/01/australia-had-a-government-shutdown-once-it-ended-with-the-queen-firing-everyone-in-parliament/

Of course the European Union has trade agreements all over the place. They typically take years to finalize. This is very different to having access to the single market which the English have given up. It mystifies me how the English are going to replace this massive customer base with 27 countries on its doorstep with individual deals here and there around the globe. Who do they think they are fooling, I wonder. Certainly the general public in England have been hoodwinked and that is a matter of regret.

 

[Jean-s]

I wasn't attempting to create any impression at all. I merely ridiculed your anti-English rant by quoting a survey which showed that the main reason that most people in the EU want to remain in the EU is for safety reasons that have nothing to do with economics. Most respondents to the survey believe that the EU is inefficient, doesn't address the needs of members and will lead to their children being less well off in future.

This criticism of the EU came from the results of surveys in 10 European nations.....not just the UK.

Get that chip on your shoulder attended to.

It was one small survey by an American outfit when you count the number of respondents and I would not take its finding without seeing it replicated and I very much doubt that 10 countries fairly represents attitudes in a Union that was almost three times the number of countries (28) which included the English. I am sure a more scientific survey over 27 countries now that England has gone would give a different picture, particularly if it were designed by a European institution which had its ear more to the ground when formulating questions.

 

[Ginza]

things have changed in the past 7 months support for Indy has risen and continues to rise same with the support for the SNP Boris Johnson has been a great appointment for the SNP ... he is our biggest cheerleader along with his pal Cummings

The SNP gained from the Labour Party (6 seats) because Corbyn's fence sitting and also gained from the Tories (7 seats) because of Brexit, in the last election.

The result had little to do with Boris.

The SNP has always bragged about having majority support but they will continue to have little credibility until their claims are shown to be true. To date, they've been fanciful.

 

[Ginza]

It was one small survey by an American outfit when you count the number of respondents and I would not take its finding without seeing it replicated and I very much doubt that 10 countries fairly represents attitudes in a Union that was almost three times the number of countries (28) which included the English. I am sure a more scientific survey over 27 countries now that England has gone would give a different picture, particularly if it were designed by a European institution which had its ear more to the ground when formulating questions.

I would still rather put more faith in a survey conducted by a respected international and independent body than someone's obviously bigoted opinion.

If you would prefer results straight from the EU itself :

Only 40% of EU residents trust the EU

Only 31% trust the EU parliament

https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/archives/eb/eb83/eb83_first_en.pdf

So it's obviously not just those pesky English that have a problem with the EU.

Personally, as the EU collected these results and is obviously not independent in this matter, I would put more faith in the independent Pew Survey.

But both sets of results are unanimous in agreeing that people in the EU have a dim view of the EU, except for the safety aspect.

 

[Ginza]

You underplay your connection to England. The Governor of Australia is appointed by the Queen of England and he can fire your prime minister. In fact he did so a while back. "Australia's 1975 shutdown ended pretty differently, though, than they do here in America. Queen Elizabeth II's official representative in Australia, Governor General Sir John Kerr, simply dismissed the prime minister." How is this different from being a colony, it must be asked.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/10/01/australia-had-a-government-shutdown-once-it-ended-with-the-queen-firing-everyone-in-parliament/

Of course the European Union has trade agreements all over the place. They typically take years to finalize. This is very different to having access to the single market which the English have given up. It mystifies me how the English are going to replace this massive customer base with 27 countries on its doorstep with individual deals here and there around the globe. Who do they think they are fooling, I wonder. Certainly the general public in England have been hoodwinked and that is a matter of regret.

You are behind the times. Recently, papers have been released that clearly show that the Queen had no say at all in the sacking of Whitlam :

'Palace letters' show the queen did not advise, or encourage, Kerr to sack Whitlam government

I'm not sure I really want to waste time explaining to you the difference between a colony (direct rule by the colonial power) and a democracy like Australia.

I am sure that you are quite capable of doing some research yourself.

 

[Jean-s]

I would still rather put more faith in a survey conducted by a respected international and independent body than someone's obviously bigoted opinion.

If you would prefer results straight from the EU itself :

Only 40% of EU residents trust the EU

Only 31% trust the EU parliament

https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/archives/eb/eb83/eb83_first_en.pdf

So it's obviously not just those pesky English that have a problem with the EU.

Personally, as the EU collected these results and is obviously not independent in this matter, I would put more faith in the independent Pew Survey.

But both sets of results are unanimous in agreeing that people in the EU have a dim view of the EU, except for the safety aspect.

I am willing to read the document you cite and then give you my considered response. I note it is five years old and a lot has happened since then and it would be necessary to know what were current events and issues back then. You will appreciate I cannot give an immediate response without perusing the 44 pages of the 'First Results' and then try to evaluate the intervening history, not least the disappearance of England from the scene.

Just immediately, I would hazard a guess that the Brexiteers sewed the data and I would expect more favorable attitudes toward the EU today. Secondly, even with the English poison, you tell me that the survey says "Only 40% of EU residents trust the EU" but that statement must be qualified. It is almost meaningless. Trust the EU about what exactly? The same goes for the statement about the EU Parliament. To what extent did the other 69% (including the English) not trust the parliament and on what issues? If it's all the same to you I will have to get back to you on this.

 

[Jean-s]

You are behind the times. Recently, papers have been released that clearly show that the Queen had no say at all in the sacking of Whitlam :

'Palace letters' show the queen did not advise, or encourage, Kerr to sack Whitlam government

I'm not sure I really want to waste time explaining to you the difference between a colony (direct rule by the colonial power) and a democracy like Australia.

I am sure that you are quite capable of doing some research yourself.

I guarantee you that the Queen dismissed the Australian prime minister but I never said nor implied that she actually had an opinion on the matter (although she must have had). No, we all know the Queen theoretically does as she is told by the government in Westminster who make all the decisions, nevertheless in Her Majesty's name. I daresay the Queen had a chat with the English prime minister at the time during one of her Tuesday evening meetings and the topic of giving the Australian prime minister the boot would have come up. She would have advised her prime minister no doubt.

Please be assured that I neither expect nor would I wish for you to waste your time on me. I am not that important. I will remind you that your definition of a colony needs reworking. You see, Gibraltar is a British colony and recognized to be so by the United Nations yet it is self-governing with an elected assembly of some sort. In a sense, it is none of my business but Australia is not an independent sovereign country as long as it has a Governor General answerable to the Queen of England and the Union Jack on your flag is a bold statement that you belong to England. Now, I do understand that you would see it differently but I suspect that there are Australians who agree with me. Take a look at Canada or New Zealand; their national flags do not have a foreign flag in the corner and that is how it should be. On the other hand they both have governors general so they are something less than sovereign to my way of thinking.

 

[Jean-s]

I would still rather put more faith in a survey conducted by a respected international and independent body than someone's obviously bigoted opinion.

If you would prefer results straight from the EU itself :

Only 40% of EU residents trust the EU

Only 31% trust the EU parliament

https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/archives/eb/eb83/eb83_first_en.pdf

So it's obviously not just those pesky English that have a problem with the EU.

Personally, as the EU collected these results and is obviously not independent in this matter, I would put more faith in the independent Pew Survey.

But both sets of results are unanimous in agreeing that people in the EU have a dim view of the EU, except for the safety aspect.

Ginza, I am getting back to you after beginning to read the Standard Eurobarometer 83 of 2015 and I can address your comment that only 40% of the people of the 28 member states (including Britain) trust the EU. Yes, I read that too but on the second measurement, you say only 31% trusted the European Parliament and I think you misread the document because there is no statistic for the European Parliament. Here is the text:
1. TRUST IN NATIONAL GOVERNMENTS AND PARLIAMENTS, AND IN THE
EUROPEAN UNION: TREND
Trust in the European Union has strengthened again (40%, +3 percentage points since
autumn 2014), reaching its highest level since the Standard Eurobarometer survey of
spring 2011 (EB75). Trust in the national political institutions has also improved slightly,
though it is still at a lower level than trust in the European Union: 31% of Europeans
tend to trust their national government (+2) and 31% their national parliament (+1).
While the proportion of EU citizens that tend not to trust national parliaments (62%) has
remained unchanged, the proportion tending not to trust the national government (63%,
-2) and the European Union (46%, -4) has decreased.

From the above, my initial suspicion is substantiated, namely that people tend to have criticism of government regardless of it being their national ones or the EU. In fact, we can see from this old survey that, as you put it, "only" 40% trusted the European but still less trusted their national governments (executives) 31%, the same lower measure that trusted their national parliaments 31%. So, the EU wins out over their national governments by 9%. In short, the citizens of the EU trust the European Union more than they trust their home governments and parliaments! How about that? Then you have the corollary that 62% do not trust their national parliaments and 63% do not trust their national governments while a much lower 46% do not trust the EU. So, the EU compares much better on all measures.