• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Enough With The Finger Pointing

John Liberty

Banned
Joined
Jun 30, 2013
Messages
275
Reaction score
72
Location
Ask the NSA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Enough with the finger pointing guys. The truth is life under the Obama administration has been almost identical to life under the Bush administration with the slight difference that we actually have a better idea of what's going on(thanks to people like Manning and Snowden).

I find it actually slightly amusing that Liberals who were up in arms about drone strikes during the Bush presidency are now saying things like "Obama is doing it to protect our freedoms".

On the flip side when Republicans that are screaming for Obama's head about these drone strikes and the NDAA are confronted about Bush doing similar things during his presidency, they lower their head and mumble something about Bush using fewer drone strikes than Obama.

I think that things in this country are not going to get any better until we all stop pointing fingers at the other parties. There are good people in the Republican party(i.e. Rand Paul) and bad people in the Republican party(i.e. John McCain). There are also good people in the Democratic party(i.e. Rep Timothy J. Penny) and bad people in the Democratic party (i.e. President Obama). Party doesn't make the man, policy does. Until people start getting that concept, things in this country are not going to get any better.

Now I realize that calling both parties out on their crap is not going to make me a very popular person, I am expecting the rage comments to begin brewing almost as soon as I post this...but it is something that needs to be said.
 
Roberts and Alito are far better justices than Kagan and Sotomayor
 
"Enough of the finger pointing" and then proceeds to point finger. lol
 
Enough with the finger pointing guys. The truth is life under the Obama administration has been almost identical to life under the Bush administration with the slight difference that we actually have a better idea of what's going on(thanks to people like Manning and Snowden).

I find it actually slightly amusing that Liberals who were up in arms about drone strikes during the Bush presidency are now saying things like "Obama is doing it to protect our freedoms".

On the flip side when Republicans that are screaming for Obama's head about these drone strikes and the NDAA are confronted about Bush doing similar things during his presidency, they lower their head and mumble something about Bush using fewer drone strikes than Obama.

I think that things in this country are not going to get any better until we all stop pointing fingers at the other parties. There are good people in the Republican party(i.e. Rand Paul) and bad people in the Republican party(i.e. John McCain). There are also good people in the Democratic party(i.e. Rep Timothy J. Penny) and bad people in the Democratic party (i.e. President Obama). Party doesn't make the man, policy does. Until people start getting that concept, things in this country are not going to get any better.

Now I realize that calling both parties out on their crap is not going to make me a very popular person, I am expecting the rage comments to begin brewing almost as soon as I post this...but it is something that needs to be said.

I agree with you completely but good luck getting the worst on either side to acknowledge it. All they will do is point the finger and you and call you a finger pointer.
 
Can't really say that I have heard liberals outside the administration often defending a lot of this stuff in the OP--they avoid it like the plague usually
 
Am I sitting here blaming a particular political party? No, I'm not. I'm blaming both of them :)

What you are really blaming (compllaining about) is largely congress (and the SCOTUS) ceding power to the executive. Laws used to be much more specific (and stayed within constitutional boundaries) but now our "law", as passed by congress, simply sets guidelines that may or may not be reduced or exceeded by the executive's method of implementation and are ignored by the SCOTUS until they decide someone with "standing" may question them in court.

Examples of this abound, yet prime examples are the mere existance of the federal department of education (ED), yet education is totally without mention in the constitution as a federal power, and the FAA defining controlled airspace and what aircraft are permitted to use it and how. Congress now passes "laws", such as the PPACA, which contain 2400 pages (or more) and then the executive blows them up to over 20,000 pages of "impemention details" that may have little bearing on the initial law, yet are "enforced" as if they were, in fact, law.
 
Enough with the finger pointing guys. The truth is life under the Obama administration has been almost identical to life under the Bush administration with the slight difference that we actually have a better idea of what's going on(thanks to people like Manning and Snowden).

I find it actually slightly amusing that Liberals who were up in arms about drone strikes during the Bush presidency are now saying things like "Obama is doing it to protect our freedoms".

On the flip side when Republicans that are screaming for Obama's head about these drone strikes and the NDAA are confronted about Bush doing similar things during his presidency, they lower their head and mumble something about Bush using fewer drone strikes than Obama.

I think that things in this country are not going to get any better until we all stop pointing fingers at the other parties. There are good people in the Republican party(i.e. Rand Paul) and bad people in the Republican party(i.e. John McCain). There are also good people in the Democratic party(i.e. Rep Timothy J. Penny) and bad people in the Democratic party (i.e. President Obama). Party doesn't make the man, policy does. Until people start getting that concept, things in this country are not going to get any better.

Now I realize that calling both parties out on their crap is not going to make me a very popular person, I am expecting the rage comments to begin brewing almost as soon as I post this...but it is something that needs to be said.

I'm having some difficulty with this portion of your post. I mostly agree with you but please explain your choice of these comparisons. Like why are your good choices good and you bad choices bad?

There are good people in the Republican party(i.e. Rand Paul) and bad people in the Republican party(i.e. John McCain). There are also good people in the Democratic party(i.e. Rep Timothy J. Penny) and bad people in the Democratic party (i.e. President Obama).

Just want to make sure that your post isn't partisan before I invest more thought into this.
 
I participate in a liberal forum. I can tell you that liberals are very angry about the drone strikes...just the opposite of what you say. And Republicans, as they were under Bush, are in favor of them. It's libertarian-Republicans like Rand Paul who are upset about drone strikes. And he would be under Bush, too, I believe.

Rand Paul is not a good person. He is egocentric, unempathetic, cares not for others' freedoms just his own, and believes in the motto "you're on your own...what if you get cancer? That's not my problem." Rational, maybe, to a libertarian. But that makes him not what is generally known as a good person.

President Obama's intentions are good. I believe he truly wants to make the economy better, make life better for all Americans, considers himself President of all America's citizens...and in fact he's done some very good things. He has tackled unpopular issues that other Presidents have failed in tackling or were afraid to. He is working toward a stronger middle class....whether he's succeeding or not is another matter. But he is a good person who is trying to make a stronger middle class...the class that is disappearing in this country. If someone doesn't work to protect the middle class, we'll end up being like Mexico or India...democracies with almost no middle class.
 
I'm having some difficulty with this portion of your post. I mostly agree with you but please explain your choice of these comparisons. Like why are your good choices good and you bad choices bad?

There are good people in the Republican party(i.e. Rand Paul) and bad people in the Republican party(i.e. John McCain). There are also good people in the Democratic party(i.e. Rep Timothy J. Penny) and bad people in the Democratic party (i.e. President Obama).

Just want to make sure that your post isn't partisan before I invest more thought into this.

Well first off the candidates I stated as good are consistent, support paying off the debt and support the lowering the deficit. The ones I stated as bad support overspending, the unconstitutional wars in the middle east, are not consistent with their overall message and are generally just not good candidates.
 
I participate in a liberal forum. I can tell you that liberals are very angry about the drone strikes...just the opposite of what you say. And Republicans, as they were under Bush, are in favor of them. It's libertarian-Republicans like Rand Paul who are upset about drone strikes. And he would be under Bush, too, I believe.

Rand Paul is not a good person. He is egocentric, unempathetic, cares not for others' freedoms just his own, and believes in the motto "you're on your own...what if you get cancer? That's not my problem." Rational, maybe, to a libertarian. But that makes him not what is generally known as a good person.

President Obama's intentions are good. I believe he truly wants to make the economy better, make life better for all Americans, considers himself President of all America's citizens...and in fact he's done some very good things. He has tackled unpopular issues that other Presidents have failed in tackling or were afraid to. He is working toward a stronger middle class....whether he's succeeding or not is another matter. But he is a good person who is trying to make a stronger middle class...the class that is disappearing in this country. If someone doesn't work to protect the middle class, we'll end up being like Mexico or India...democracies with almost no middle class.

Ok, I don't even know where to start with this...

1). How does Rand Paul not care about anyone else's freedoms but his own? He's a government official, if that were the case he'd be like every other neo-conservative Republican in that building.

2). No, I know several Liberals that support the drone strikes under Obama.

3). Obama is not working towards a stronger middle class, he's working towards a stronger lower class. He is trying to make himself out as "the peoples president" by taking money from the middle class and the rich and giving it to the unemployed and the poor. The middle class and the unemployed are not the same class FYI.

4).The issues he's "tackled" are unpopular for a reason.
 
Enough with the finger pointing guys. The truth is life under the Obama administration has been almost identical to life under the Bush administration with the slight difference that we actually have a better idea of what's going on(thanks to people like Manning and Snowden).

I find it actually slightly amusing that Liberals who were up in arms about drone strikes during the Bush presidency are now saying things like "Obama is doing it to protect our freedoms".

On the flip side when Republicans that are screaming for Obama's head about these drone strikes and the NDAA are confronted about Bush doing similar things during his presidency, they lower their head and mumble something about Bush using fewer drone strikes than Obama.

I think that things in this country are not going to get any better until we all stop pointing fingers at the other parties. There are good people in the Republican party(i.e. Rand Paul) and bad people in the Republican party(i.e. John McCain). There are also good people in the Democratic party(i.e. Rep Timothy J. Penny) and bad people in the Democratic party (i.e. President Obama). Party doesn't make the man, policy does. Until people start getting that concept, things in this country are not going to get any better.

Now I realize that calling both parties out on their crap is not going to make me a very popular person, I am expecting the rage comments to begin brewing almost as soon as I post this...but it is something that needs to be said.

Huh?

Listen, I wasn't helping to support two friends when Bush was in office. What in The Realms Above, In the Earth About Us, or The Principalities Below do you mean "life under the Obama administration has been almost identical to life under the Bush administration?"
 
Huh?

Listen, I wasn't helping to support two friends when Bush was in office. What in The Realms Above, In the Earth About Us, or The Principalities Below do you mean "life under the Obama administration has been almost identical to life under the Bush administration?"

I mean what I said. Obama and Bush have passed similar laws, declared similar wars and have similar economic beliefs...neither made any move to lower the national debt and they both passed some of the most unconstitutional laws ever written(Bush-Patriot Act, Obama-NDAA). The only difference is we have a better idea of what is going on(again, thanks to Snowden and Manning), and the situation has worsened naturally over time. You cannot argue that Bush was a better president than Obama...you just can't.
 
I mean what I said. Obama and Bush have passed similar laws, declared similar wars and have similar economic beliefs...neither made any move to lower the national debt and they both passed some of the most unconstitutional laws ever written(Bush-Patriot Act, Obama-NDAA). The only difference is we have a better idea of what is going on(again, thanks to Snowden and Manning), and the situation has worsened naturally over time. You cannot argue that Bush was a better president than Obama...you just can't.

I hear that fire and ice are identical, too. A I'm sorry, you're too far detached from Reality for me to deal with right now.
 
I hear that fire and ice are identical, too. I'm sorry you're too far detached from Reality for me to deal with right now.

I see...well you have fun riding your rainbow unicorn back to happy land. I'm sorry you didn't feel up to finishing a debate that you started.
 
Well first off the candidates I stated as good are consistent, support paying off the debt and support the lowering the deficit. The ones I stated as bad support overspending, the unconstitutional wars in the middle east, are not consistent with their overall message and are generally just not good candidates.

Timothy J. Penny is your example? Fascinating.
 
Am I sitting here blaming a particular political party? No, I'm not. I'm blaming both of them :)
Well, first of all you generalized and assumed that liberals approve of the drone strikes now that Obama is in office and that is false. And then you generalized and assumed that Republicans don't approve of the drone strikes now that Obama is in office and that is false. And then you made a point of pointing a finger at people on both sides as if everyone is supposed to agree with your opinion of who is good and bad. And then you act like you're above finger pointing after you just got through finger pointing.
 
life under the Obama administration has been almost identical to life under the Bush administration
dude I'll take those Itsy Bitsy Teeny Tiny slight differences anyday Gimme dat buck fidy gasoline and 5.5% unemployment and no Moosie Bro-hood overrunning four mid-east countries and how 'bout that 6 trillion bucks Obama has blown? Oh and take that socialised healthcare n shove it and well you get the picture but lil buddy wait until you see what's coming up next! Yer really gonna luv it. And thar aint' no body gonna save us left right front or center I'ts coming and there's nothing to stop it.
wb6mc3.jpg
 
So Moot who is going to approve the drone strikes when they are ordered on American soil? Will the target really care? prolly not eh?
 
1). How does Rand Paul not care about anyone else's freedoms but his own? He's a government official, if that were the case he'd be like every other neo-conservative Republican in that building.

2). No, I know several Liberals that support the drone strikes under Obama.

Let me try to illustrate why people like Rand Paul do not stand for freedom. I've told this story before, but here it goes: my ancestors were Jewish. They lived in St. Paul, which was extremely antisemitic many many years ago. One of my father's relatives was getting old and got really sick. It turned out he had appendicitis and immediately needed his appendix removed. He went to the nearest hospital, which was by far the best hospital, and they refused to treat him because he was Jewish. In the hospital's defense (if you can phrase it that way) the whole family knew their policy but thought he might be treated there since he would likely die otherwise. There was only one hospital he could make it to in time, and as the story may have gone, the surgeon was drunk and dropped a rusty scalpel into his body during the operation. As the story definitely did go, he died from a severe infection due to unclean procedures at the substandard hospital.

What I'm trying to illustrate is the ridiculous notion embraced by libertarians that being free means the government not getting in the way of our lives. Well, for my ancestors, freedom meant the opposite - it meant regulation, because the community actually supported the hospital which turned away individuals simply for being Jewish. Look at all the cameras on the sidewalks that you walk on. Does the government own them? No, businesses own them. I'm not saying I'm against security cameras, I'm merely presenting a symbol of intrusion and it's coming from businesses, not the government. In order for us to be free, regulation is necessary, and almost everybody agrees on that, but people like Rand Paul and many other libertarians have pushed the line way too far in the direction of big business. Isn't it a weird coincidence that big business pays for their election campaigns and commercials?

Now we hear about tort reform. Wouldn't that be nice if not only my ancestor had died in that filthy hospital but his family was also told they couldn't sue because it would be a frivolous lawsuit? There's enough money from the private sector to win the PR campaign, but that's what tort reform is - preventing people from having the right to collect damages when they are harmed by a doctor or medical establishment.

I guess we all have different ideas of what freedom is. It sounds like you read a lot of "alternative media." Be wary is all I have to say. They don't fact check and often don't use primary sources. As for the several liberals comment, there's only 120 million or so liberals in the US, so several is a pretty big percentage of that I suppose.
 
Enough with the finger pointing guys. The truth is life under the Obama administration has been almost identical to life under the Bush administration with the slight difference that we actually have a better idea of what's going on(thanks to people like Manning and Snowden).

I find it actually slightly amusing that Liberals who were up in arms about drone strikes during the Bush presidency are now saying things like "Obama is doing it to protect our freedoms".

On the flip side when Republicans that are screaming for Obama's head about these drone strikes and the NDAA are confronted about Bush doing similar things during his presidency, they lower their head and mumble something about Bush using fewer drone strikes than Obama.

I think that things in this country are not going to get any better until we all stop pointing fingers at the other parties. There are good people in the Republican party(i.e. Rand Paul) and bad people in the Republican party(i.e. John McCain). There are also good people in the Democratic party(i.e. Rep Timothy J. Penny) and bad people in the Democratic party (i.e. President Obama). Party doesn't make the man, policy does. Until people start getting that concept, things in this country are not going to get any better.

Now I realize that calling both parties out on their crap is not going to make me a very popular person, I am expecting the rage comments to begin brewing almost as soon as I post this...but it is something that needs to be said.

I would like this, but you have got to be kidding me with the fact you complain about finger pointing and then you start doing the same damned thing. There is blame to be put on congress, but when you start pointing to some of the bigger partisan morons ion politics as the good guys it really shows you have no concern about finger pointing at all. You really did start off well, and then devolved right into the bad things you mentioned.
 
Am I sitting here blaming a particular political party? No, I'm not. I'm blaming both of them :)

The very fact you see rand paul as a good guy shows you have the problem you are complaining about. He is one of the bigger loudmouths who say look at what those guys are doing wrong while he steals from you and stabs you in the back. back up and use a wide brush. Make sure to get them all in the picture because none are free of blame.
 
Let me try to illustrate why people like Rand Paul do not stand for freedom. I've told this story before, but here it goes: my ancestors were Jewish. They lived in St. Paul, which was extremely antisemitic many many years ago. One of my father's relatives was getting old and got really sick. It turned out he had appendicitis and immediately needed his appendix removed. He went to the nearest hospital, which was by far the best hospital, and they refused to treat him because he was Jewish. In the hospital's defense (if you can phrase it that way) the whole family knew their policy but thought he might be treated there since he would likely die otherwise. There was only one hospital he could make it to in time, and as the story may have gone, the surgeon was drunk and dropped a rusty scalpel into his body during the operation. As the story definitely did go, he died from a severe infection due to unclean procedures at the substandard hospital.

What I'm trying to illustrate is the ridiculous notion embraced by libertarians that being free means the government not getting in the way of our lives. Well, for my ancestors, freedom meant the opposite - it meant regulation, because the community actually supported the hospital which turned away individuals simply for being Jewish. Look at all the cameras on the sidewalks that you walk on. Does the government own them? No, businesses own them. I'm not saying I'm against security cameras, I'm merely presenting a symbol of intrusion and it's coming from businesses, not the government. In order for us to be free, regulation is necessary, and almost everybody agrees on that, but people like Rand Paul and many other libertarians have pushed the line way too far in the direction of big business. Isn't it a weird coincidence that big business pays for their election campaigns and commercials?

Now we hear about tort reform. Wouldn't that be nice if not only my ancestor had died in that filthy hospital but his family was also told they couldn't sue because it would be a frivolous lawsuit? There's enough money from the private sector to win the PR campaign, but that's what tort reform is - preventing people from having the right to collect damages when they are harmed by a doctor or medical establishment.

I guess we all have different ideas of what freedom is. It sounds like you read a lot of "alternative media." Be wary is all I have to say. They don't fact check and often don't use primary sources. As for the several liberals comment, there's only 120 million or so liberals in the US, so several is a pretty big percentage of that I suppose.

Nice post and nice example of why libertarianism fails. Ina good world libertarian would be great, but in this world with corrupt and evil people there needs to be something that can step in and help people who would normally be hurt for the purposes of hate and greed. It is the reason I cannot support libertarians. At best they live in a fantasy world where most people are good and honest and those who are not never get ahead. At worst they are just looking to remove the obstacles to being free to be prejudiced dicks.
 
Enough with the finger pointing guys. The truth is life under the Obama administration has been almost identical to life under the Bush administration with the slight difference that we actually have a better idea of what's going on(thanks to people like Manning and Snowden).

I find it actually slightly amusing that Liberals who were up in arms about drone strikes during the Bush presidency are now saying things like "Obama is doing it to protect our freedoms".

On the flip side when Republicans that are screaming for Obama's head about these drone strikes and the NDAA are confronted about Bush doing similar things during his presidency, they lower their head and mumble something about Bush using fewer drone strikes than Obama.

I think that things in this country are not going to get any better until we all stop pointing fingers at the other parties. There are good people in the Republican party(i.e. Rand Paul) and bad people in the Republican party(i.e. John McCain). There are also good people in the Democratic party(i.e. Rep Timothy J. Penny) and bad people in the Democratic party (i.e. President Obama). Party doesn't make the man, policy does. Until people start getting that concept, things in this country are not going to get any better.

Now I realize that calling both parties out on their crap is not going to make me a very popular person, I am expecting the rage comments to begin brewing almost as soon as I post this...but it is something that needs to be said.




Benghazi happened under Obama. Would it have happened if Bush was in office? We can't know that. we can only know that it didn't happen under Bush.

The IRS targeting happened under Obama. Again, we know it did and that it is a pretty unique abuse.

The NSA eavesdropping under Bush was in communication that involved a foreign participant in the communication. Obama expanded that.

The has not been a President who did not try to expand his authority as Washington predicted they all would. Our problem is that we have petty criminals and swindlers occupying powerful offices.

Obama's ambition combined with his corruption and bias are a dangerous concoction made more damaging by his gift of rhetoric and the compliant and sycophantic press corp that is seemingly mesmerized by the lies.

As long as our Congress is satisfied to go along to get along and the President is driven to cross the Rubicon on every issue, we are on a slippery slope that will lead to a different outcome than the founders' dreams held for us. The Federalist part of our Republic is quickly drawing to a close. Was the Federalist system a part of the foundation of Greatness? I suppose we will find out when it is gone.
 
I participate in a liberal forum. I can tell you that liberals are very angry about the drone strikes...just the opposite of what you say. And Republicans, as they were under Bush, are in favor of them. It's libertarian-Republicans like Rand Paul who are upset about drone strikes. And he would be under Bush, too, I believe.

Rand Paul is not a good person. He is egocentric, unempathetic, cares not for others' freedoms just his own, and believes in the motto "you're on your own...what if you get cancer? That's not my problem." Rational, maybe, to a libertarian. But that makes him not what is generally known as a good person.

President Obama's intentions are good. I believe he truly wants to make the economy better, make life better for all Americans, considers himself President of all America's citizens...and in fact he's done some very good things. He has tackled unpopular issues that other Presidents have failed in tackling or were afraid to. He is working toward a stronger middle class....whether he's succeeding or not is another matter. But he is a good person who is trying to make a stronger middle class...the class that is disappearing in this country. If someone doesn't work to protect the middle class, we'll end up being like Mexico or India...democracies with almost no middle class.



The last paragraph is nonsensical if compared to the real world. Obama has been successful in everything he has tried to do and the country is circling the drain because he has succeeded.

Hope is not a plan. He has no plan. Working toward a stronger middle class? You're dreaming. The Middle Class is dissolving under his attack. Household income is down. Median pay is down. Insurance coverage is down. Taxes are up. The Debt is in orbit. The Space program has been reduced to a weather girl performing "Muslim Outreach".

Our international prestige is in the toilet. Defense spending is evaporating under his attack and we can't do anything in any part of the world to advance our agenda. We have become irrelevant as an international player.

His method to address issues is designed to end political discourse, circumvent the Constitutional solutions and has segmented the population into an "us vs. them" on EVERY TOPIC HE DISCUSSES. Do you wonder why he has not mused about which cold blooded murderer in the last week would look like his son?

Obama takes every opportunity to subdivide Americans into component groups and blames some as the culprits and cites others others as the victims. He does this in every action, every speech, every word and every gesture.

The American people are suffering and like abused dogs who get whipped too much by their abusive owners, there are those who accept the whipping and still honor their master. I find this to be confusing.

Do you question why the Problems that Obama campaigned to correct, actually is STILL campaigning to correct, are only getting worse? If only we had a leader who could lead us to the solutions instead of a pathetic and impotent merchant of blame.

I find it amazing that you think he is doing a good job, but you realize that the job he is doing is failing to accomplish the goals he promised. Why do you disconnect the promise from the promiser?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom