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Enough with college already

Ahlevah

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I think Americans spend too much money on colleges and universities. We need to stop subsidizing them, at least to the extent that we are. If some post-pubescent, pimply-faced Einstein wants to study dead languages or 17th Century British authors, let him do it on his own dime. If he doesn't have a dime he can do what people decades ago did: Get a job and pay for it--one class at a time if necessary. If he can only afford to study Francis Quarles on the Seven-year Plan, then that's what he should do. It seems that the more we subsidize higher education with direct funding, grants, and cheap loans, the more schools charge, to the point that some former students spend decades paying off tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in debts. Meanwhile, how many tenured professors, researchers, and administrators live on the south side of the tracks with the common folk? How many rich kids are suffocating under mountains of loans? :confused: And if capitalism is so efficient and wonderful, then why can't the capitalists fund all of that applied research? :confused:

We need to get away from the idea that college is the best path to prosperity for the broad masses of society. Let's face it: There are a lot of kids today sitting in college classrooms who are just occupying space and only there because Mom and Dad expect it. Instead of starting blankly at the walls while the prof drones on about some inane (for most of us) subject like an unsolved eigenvalue equation, they'd probably be better off learning a trade. It seems as though we've gotten to the point in this society at which learning a trade is seen by many people as a pedestrian grind meant only for people with marginal intelligence, with almost no intrinsic worth except as a means to pay the rent and buy take-out every now and then.

Enough is enough.
 
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Harry Guerrilla

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I think Americans spend too much money on colleges and universities. We need to stop subsidizing them, at least to the extent that we are. If some post-pubescent, pimply-faced Einstein wants to study dead languages or 17th Century British authors, let him do it on his own dime. If he doesn't have a dime he can do what people decades ago did: Get a job and pay for it--one class at a time if necessary. If he can only afford to study Francis Quarles on the Seven-year Plan, then that's what he should do. It seems that the more we subsidize higher education with direct funding, grants, and cheap loans, the more schools charge, to the point that some former students spend decades paying off tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in debts. Meanwhile, how many tenured professors, researchers, and administrators live on the south side of the tracks with the common folk? How many rich kids are suffocating under mountains of loans? :confused: And if capitalism is so efficient and wonderful, then why can't the capitalists fund all of that applied research? :confused:

We need to get away from the idea that college is the best path to prosperity for the broad masses of society. Let's face it: There are a lot of kids today sitting in college classrooms who are just occupying space and only there because Mom and Dad expect it. Instead of starting blankly at the walls while the prof drones on about some inane (for most of us) subject like an unsolved eigenvalue equation, they'd probably be better off learning a trade. It seems as though we've gotten to the point in this society at which learning a trade is seen by many people as a pedestrian grind meant only for people with marginal intelligence, with almost no intrinsic worth except as a means to pay the rent and buy take-out every now and then.

Enough is enough.

It kinda correlates with medical care pricing.:idea:

You already alluded to why the costs are increasing and I can't help but agree with you.
 

Orion

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At first I agreed, but then I thought it through and I don't think I do anymore. It's not up to anyone to decide what programs are useful and what ones aren't, because none of them have the inherent promise of a good life after it. It all depends on the individual and how they use their education. A lot of people are in college who simply aren't ready to be, or they are there because of external pressures. That brings down the quality of the programs, but the programs themselves are not inherently useless.

Instead, I think subsidies should be spread over a range of different institutions, like colleges for trades skills.
 

Civil1z@tion

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To me college loans make a lot of sense as the person paying for your education is the person getting the most benefit from it (namely, your future self). I'm a college student and I don't believe most subjects that get derided so much by people for "practical" education are really bad, but at the same time, it makes sense that those receiving the benefit should pay the cost.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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To me college loans make a lot of sense as the person paying for your education is the person getting the most benefit from it (namely, your future self). I'm a college student and I don't believe most subjects that get derided so much by people for "practical" education are really bad, but at the same time, it makes sense that those receiving the benefit should pay the cost.

I don't know man.
I really think its stupid that I have to take classes on U.S. government, U.S. history and a "computers for morons" class when I am already very well versed in these subjects.

Many schools make you take those classes and don't allow you to test out.
 

CriticalThought

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We actually have a bit of a dire problem that most people aren't aware of yet. Old people aren't retiring. The recession and the uncertainty of Social Security is keeping them working longer. If they don't retire then their jobs don't open up to younger people. As such we have to subsidize college education to warehouse the youth of the nation until old people start retiring again.
 

Phantom

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Jobs are heard to find (unless you plan on working at Wal-Mart as a stockman) in today's economy. Getting a trade doesn't really put you that much higher on the Totem pole these days, unfortunately. After WW2 my grandfather went to trade school and ended up retiring at the age of 54. My dad did the same and he was making close to $1,000 weekly after 1 year on the job (this was in 1982). He eventually got a supervisor position after 5 years. From his personal experience he found that this wouldn't be so easy today. He recently tried to relocate to a factory with a different business so he wouldn't have to drive far every morning, but they were not willing to give him the same position and pay because he "didn't have the proper qualifications." After all these years he has stuck to the job he got in 1982 because it is the only business who will gave him a fair chance. The downside to trade school is, like you said, underestimated and marginalized with many employers today.

I think most people here would like to go to college but you will probably be paying off the loan for the rest of your life if you aren't one of the lucky ones who get fair chance at success. There is another strange thing with college that I've been hearing from some LSU graduates that I know. They are being turned away because they are "OVER QUALIFIED..." One girl I know is fresh out of college and wants a job teaching k-12, but there are no openings in public or private schools. She does not have the money to relocate at this time so she decided to get a temporary job working with a day care company, but we turned away because of her qualifications.

This is just my observation, but I think many people take the risk and start their own proprietorship. This is what I am doing at the moment (although I am starting an LLC). I work as a graphic designer at the moment, but the pay is bad and I promised myself that I would have a business of my own someday. The skills I have will serve me well though. I have plenty of experience with PHP, MySQL, Photoshop, Illustrator, and photography. I have not went to college but learned this skills on my own time when I got my first computer in the early 2000's. These skills are essential in ecommerce. In my opinion, I will get the most in life by starting a business of my own as opposed to getting a college degree just to help someone else buy their corvettes and vacation suites.

I'm not trying to offend anyone who invested in a college education. I just think we should stop telling people that they have to get enrolled to have a chance at being a CEO, business owner, or what have you.
 

Ahlevah

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At first I agreed, but then I thought it through and I don't think I do anymore. It's not up to anyone to decide what programs are useful and what ones aren't, because none of them have the inherent promise of a good life after it. It all depends on the individual and how they use their education.

It should be up to the students. If they feel as though they're getting value for their tuition, they'll take the class. They might be less inclined to buy something they're really not getting much value for if they instead of the taxpayer are paying for it. If someone else, say a wealthy philanthropist, thinks there's value in letting kids study Shakespeare, then let him pay for it. He can fund a scholarship or a chair.

A lot of people are in college who simply aren't ready to be, or they are there because of external pressures. That brings down the quality of the programs, but the programs themselves are not inherently useless.

I'm not saying they're useless. I'm just suggesting that taxpayer money might be better spent on something else. All we're doing with all of these subsidies is distorting the economy. We now have cases where parents are refusing to take higher-paying jobs, in some instances jobs worth north of six figures, because doing so will impact their child's financial-aid package.
 

Deuce

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Yes, clearly what this country needs is less education.
 

OscarB63

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why is it that any time anyone disagrees with throwing away tax money to subsidize some bull**** education program there is always some jackwad that jumps in and equates it to being against education in general?
 

Harry Guerrilla

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why is it that any time anyone disagrees with throwing away tax money to subsidize some bull**** education program there is always some jackwad that jumps in and equates it to being against education in general?

Education is considered, by most people, to be a universal good.
Which is pretty much a gross exaggeration.
 

Cold Highway

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There has been cases made that dumping the godly amounts of money into 4 year schools isnt really worth it for some people. Especially if you go for worthless degrees, the end result is tons a debt and possibly a very small job market.
 

MaggieD

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We need to get away from the idea that college is the best path to prosperity for the broad masses of society. Let's face it: There are a lot of kids today sitting in college classrooms who are just occupying space and only there because Mom and Dad expect it. Instead of starting blankly at the walls while the prof drones on about some inane (for most of us) subject like an unsolved eigenvalue equation, they'd probably be better off learning a trade. It seems as though we've gotten to the point in this society at which learning a trade is seen by many people as a pedestrian grind meant only for people with marginal intelligence, with almost no intrinsic worth except as a means to pay the rent and buy take-out every now and then.

Enough is enough.

Agree with much of what you say. College is definitely not for everyone. And not because they're not smart. Because they don't see its intrinsic value unless they need college for their particular field of interest. When students don't care whether or not they go to college, well, they're just wasting seats for those who do care.

Re the trades, I wouldn't care what anyone thought about them with their pedestrian mindsets. Would hope those so inclined didn't give a damn either. We will always need tradespeople...plumbers, HVAC, electricians, carpenters, construction workers, garbagemen, junk dealers, movers, landscapers, house-cleaning services, repair technicians, handyman services, etc., etc. There are fortunes to be made in any one of those fields. And not one of them takes a college education.

The secret is the old maxim -- find a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life.
 

Deuce

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Contextually that's right, of course your being sarcastic.

The allocation of education resources is being misappropriated and wasted.
Which is causing a massive, year over year, price increase.

This is true. We do need to spend the money better. I don't think we should cut funding though, I'd rather keep tuition as low as possible so that more people have the opportunity for a good education.

why is it that any time anyone disagrees with throwing away tax money to subsidize some bull**** education program there is always some jackwad that jumps in and equates it to being against education in general?

Why is it that any time people make a joke or sarcastic comment, there's always some jackwad who takes it literally? The dude I quoted above gets it. You did not.
 

OscarB63

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Agree with much of what you say. College is definitely not for everyone. And not because they're not smart. Because they don't see its intrinsic value unless they need college for their particular field of interest. When students don't care whether or not they go to college, well, they're just wasting seats for those who do care.

Re the trades, I wouldn't care what anyone thought about them with their pedestrian mindsets. Would hope those so inclined didn't give a damn either. We will always need tradespeople...plumbers, HVAC, electricians, carpenters, construction workers, garbagemen, junk dealers, movers, landscapers, house-cleaning services, repair technicians, handyman services, etc., etc. There are fortunes to be made in any one of those fields. And not one of them takes a college education.

The secret is the old maxim -- find a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life.


my 24 y/o son works in HVAC, no college degree and he makes 2/3rds what I do with a MS in Chemical Engineering. College is not for everyone and I don't think the world would come to a freaking end if the tax payers stopped subsidizing idiots to get degrees in 14th century french architecture.
 

OscarB63

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This is true. We do need to spend the money better.



Why is it that any time people make a joke or sarcastic comment, there's always some jackwad who takes it literally? The dude I quoted above gets it. You did not.

maybe because some jadwads tend to hide their true feelings behind sarcasm. some of us can see thru the bull****.
 

Deuce

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my 24 y/o son works in HVAC, no college degree and he makes 2/3rds what I do with a MS in Chemical Engineering. College is not for everyone and I don't think the world would come to a freaking end if the tax payers stopped subsidizing idiots to get degrees in 14th century french architecture.

Show me one school that has a degree in 14th century french architecture.
 

Harry Guerrilla

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This is true. We do need to spend the money better. I don't think we should cut funding though, I'd rather keep tuition as low as possible so that more people have the opportunity for a good education.

That education may be wholly unnecessary.
People are going to college because they think it's a requirement to earn a decent living, when that isn't necessarily true.
It's being reinforced by the local primary and secondary schools.

Things need to change.
 

Gray_Fox_86

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Well college is needed to teach engineers how to do their job correctly. Or think about how much it would suck if we had no one who knew how to use a refinery, etc, etc. And doctors of course and other scientists. But basically for everything else you either have it or you don't.
 

Deuce

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That education may be wholly unnecessary.
People are going to college because they think it's a requirement to earn a decent living, when that isn't necessarily true.
It's being reinforced by the local primary and secondary schools.

Things need to change.

I disagree. I think higher education is an important factor in social mobility. Yes, you can make a lot of money without going to college, but on average a college degree will improve your long-term financial situation. No, it's not necessary, but then again highways aren't necessary either.

Things need to change, but I don't think just cutting education is the answer.
 

Cold Highway

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I disagree. I think higher education is an important factor in social mobility. Yes, you can make a lot of money without going to college, but on average a college degree will improve your long-term financial situation. No, it's not necessary, but then again highways aren't necessary either.

Im pretty sure the original OP isnt against college. Its been proven that college isnt for everyone, the argument is against government subisdies for them. Its one of the reasons why college is expensive.
 

Deuce

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Im pretty sure the original OP isnt against college. Its been proven that college isnt for everyone, the argument is against government subisdies for them. Its one of the reasons why college is expensive.

Subsidies keep tuition down.
 

liblady

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Im pretty sure the original OP isnt against college. Its been proven that college isnt for everyone, the argument is against government subisdies for them. Its one of the reasons why college is expensive.

while it's not for everyone, everyone should have that opportunity. and our less skilled jobs are circling the drain right now.
 
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