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English as the national language: Why?

English as the national language: Why?

  • We need to preserve our culture.

    Votes: 14 53.8%
  • It's for the immigrants' own good.

    Votes: 8 30.8%
  • It's just plain annoying.

    Votes: 5 19.2%
  • Other (Please Explain)

    Votes: 11 42.3%

  • Total voters
    26
What I want to know is why there is always an option for French on the ATMs. At least there is a viable reason for spanish on these things.

Good question. I used to wonder that myself. I also wondered why French is taught in almost every high school when there don't appear to be any French people with whom to converse. Your post prompted me to go looking for the answer.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau French is the 4th most spoken language in the United States behind English, Spanish and Chinese (which, from what I understand, is divided into mainly Cantonese and Mandarin dialects).

http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/c2kbr-29.pdf

(Page 4 if the link doesn't go directly to it.)

Now, I've met very few French people, so I have to assume that most of them live in northern NY, VT, NH and ME (close to Quebec), some in LA, owing to it's official language status and heritage, and that the study conducted by the Census Bureau includes English speakers who took a lot of French in high school and college... but that's just my guess.

Makes me wonder though why there's no Chinese option.

I've also seen Italian and German offered as available languages at ATMs.
 
In the closed community you described, and/or with the assistance of translators they can get by. I'm not sure how this is getting by, but with those parameters, I can see your point. Outside of those parameters, they cannot.

Well, they're getting by in Chicago, New York, Los Angeles, Baltimore (where I used to live), probably all throughout Southern Florida, California, Texas, and Arizona as well as New Mexico and Louisiana (where Spanish is an official language in both states). They may get by with the aid of these so called "closed communities," but these communities tend to be very large in terms of area and numbers and they do not exist simply within them. As I've illustrated before they commonly do business with state, regional, national and international companies via Spanish language services, surf and shop the net in Spanish and consume Spanish language media that covers a wide range of issues that are not specific to their "closed community."

So, to sum up, I'd say they "get by" quite a bit more often, and better, than you think.

ANYTHING behind this movement besides racism AND people being annoyed. Not OR. Not somethings. Your statement was an absolute and pertained to this forum in an implied way, since it was an absolute. You have now clarified and I can accept that,

:rofl

Seems I now have my own personal little Mitt Romney moment here.

By using the word and I did not mean to say that people were both racists and annoyed. I meant to convey my opinion that the movement is made up of two kinds of people- racists and those who get annoyed at the drive-thru. It was not my intention to imply that all racists get annoyed in the drive-thru or that all people who get annoyed at the drive-thru are racists, and I think that logic applied to that statement would seem to suggest that you misread, not that I miscommunicated.

The statement "apples and oranges" does not suggest that apples and oranges are the same, it simply connects the two in a sentence.

Anyway, it's nice that we've now come to an understanding. :2wave:

I stand by my position. In order to assist with assimilation and reduce dependency, all immigrants need to learn English, IMO. Assimilation does not, to me, mean losing ones ethnicity. It means, also, becoming part of the American community. Instituting English as the national language would assist in assimilation and independence, and could also create government assistance in learning the language.

They probably should learn English, and it probably will help them in all the ways you have described, however I don't believe that they need to do so and I don't think that legislation is needed to encourage that.

Even if it were, making English our national language would not have that effect.

You'll note that a number of states (the vast majority, I believe), including Illinois, where I live, and where Chicago is, have legislated English as their official state language. It has had absolutely no effect on the community of non-English speakers here (be it Spanish, Polish, or whatever). Furthermore, this national legislation would simply go over top of state legislation that has already been enacted, making it doubly ineffective.

Additionally, I hesitate to point this out, but English is already our national language. Legislation would only be pointing out what is already obvious.

A quote I read somewhere recently states it perfectly:

"Making English the official language of the United States of America is about as urgently called for as making hotdogs the official food at baseball games."
 
Those who do not speak english in the US, are they rich? Are they well off? Do they have stable jobs? Do they own thier own homes? Do they have time to learn english? Do they have the money to pay for english classes? How can they learn english? What will enable them to learn english?
If they have the time and money to go down to the local Latino Bar, get smashed, and drive over top of cyclists, then they have the time and money to get english classes. And I guess its worth mentioning that many, and I may repeat and remphasize, MANY, churches provide <Insert Crazy Language here> to English classes. Such churches are usually the churches centered in the area where the people of that culture live (since most have their own little areas of town where they are prevalent).


In CA, there is a large number of refugees from El Salvador from the 80s thru the 90s. How are refugees going to learn english?
Why do they care? They are only here for the MS13 anyways. :mrgreen:


It isn't because they are lazy or inconsiderate, though it certainly is a factor. It's hard for them to learn it more than anything, I think. Considering that many students in school do not all ace thier english tests, and even grown adults who lived thier entire lives in the US still cannot speak properly or know what a freakin predicate is.

The why is ideal, the how is practical.
Nobody said you had to be an english major to "communicate". Thats all we are asking, is for you to understand how to speak and eventually read english. Nobody is asking them to be the editor of the local newspaper, or be an english teacher.

And, Who the **** cares about a predicate anyways? How many of US use that knowledge everyday. I write lengthy reports often in my job, do you think I am thinking about a predicate when I structure my sentences? No, I think, Damn, does this "sound" right?
 
In CA, there is a large number of refugees from El Salvador from the 80s thru the 90s. How are refugees going to learn english?

If they been in the country since the 80s and 90s they should know english.

It isn't because they are lazy or inconsiderate,


Yes it is.Why would you be motivate to want to learn english if the government forms are bilingual,the city signs are bilingual,tv channels in spanish,bilingual labels on products(which is why I hate shopping at walmart) and ballots are multi-lingual? So what if the only job you can get is construction,factory worker,fast food or janitorial,most people do not view success as who can make the most money or who can have the most luxuries.


It's hard for them to learn it more than anything, I think.


So your saying they are too stupid to learn anything new?



Considering that many students in school do not all ace thier english tests,

How times a day you speak like a english text book dictates?
and even grown adults who lived thier entire lives in the US still cannot speak properly or know what a freakin predicate is.


You can still communicate with them,thus proving you do not need complete mastery of the english language to communicate with others.



The why is ideal, the how is practical.

They can learn english in their free time.They can hang out in english speaking places, watch english speaking shows, and carry a spanish to english book with them when they go to places.Tourist carry books with english to foreign books with them.I still have my English to Korean book from when I was stationed in Korea.
 
If they have the time and money to go down to the local Latino Bar, get smashed, and drive over top of cyclists, then they have the time and money to get english classes. And I guess its worth mentioning that many, and I may repeat and remphasize, MANY, churches provide <Insert Crazy Language here> to English classes. Such churches are usually the churches centered in the area where the people of that culture live (since most have their own little areas of town where they are prevalent).

And what about the mothers who do not come home until it's night because they've worked 14 hours or more in the sweatshop? What about the father who stood by home depot for 4 hours in the morning just to see if they can find any work, who usually come home late as well? What about the child who has to run home from school alone because it's danerous? Is he or she garaunteed safety at a church? Safe with people, or better safe alone at home?

Go ahead and stick with your stereotypes of immigrants. I'm sure it will help you rationalize your beliefs.

Nobody said you had to be an english major to "communicate". Thats all we are asking, is for you to understand how to speak and eventually read english. Nobody is asking them to be the editor of the local newspaper, or be an english teacher.

And, Who the **** cares about a predicate anyways? How many of US use that knowledge everyday. I write lengthy reports often in my job, do you think I am thinking about a predicate when I structure my sentences? No, I think, Damn, does this "sound" right?

The point that I was making was that English isn't an easy language to learn in the first place. Do you really think taking a few classes will automatically make some fluent in English?
 
If they been in the country since the 80s and 90s they should know english.

Like I said, that would be ideal. How can they? How can a refugee?

Yes it is.Why would you be motivate to want to learn english if the government forms are bilingual,the city signs are bilingual,tv channels in spanish,bilingual labels on products(which is why I hate shopping at walmart) and ballots are multi-lingual? So what if the only job you can get is construction,factory worker,fast food or janitorial,most people do not view success as who can make the most money or who can have the most luxuries.

Turn off your rant next time you post a resonse please. You started off with thier lack of motivation to learn english, and ended with perceptions of monetary success.

The motivation is there. Any immigrant knows that it is an asset to know how to speak english, so they cannot be fooled, or taken advantage of.

So your saying they are too stupid to learn anything new?

No, English is a complex, contradictory, and confusing language to learn for everyone.

You can still communicate with them,thus proving you do not need complete mastery of the english language to communicate with others.

Again, the point was to show that English is a hard language to learn. As if a few classes would enable anybody to speak English. I've taken 3 years of French in High School but I wont be able to hold on to a meaningful conversation.

They can learn english in their free time.They can hang out in english speaking places, watch english speaking shows, and carry a spanish to english book with them when they go to places.Tourist carry books with english to foreign books with them.I still have my English to Korean book from when I was stationed in Korea.

And if they have no free time? What if they work all day for thier $5 dollars at the sweatshop?
 
I don't know why you would post this

I got caught up in a thought and forgot that it was supposed to be specific about what American Culture is.

or why anybody would thank you.

Now I'm going out on a limb here.

Perhaps it could be that maybe something I posted struck some sort of chord with him.

Just a hunch.

You didn't even answer my question. I wanted the person who quoted me and responded to be specific and you were very vague.

Try again.

Since I'm not allowed to be specific and use actual things that symbolize the American culture (like sports eg: baseball) I'll try to straddle the line between being very specific and very vague.


American culture is the the entirety of a private and individualistic people freely choosing to live together, shaped by their laws, academic and civil institutions partly, but mainly guided by the human experience of free people and the time-tested lessons & traditions passed down. These traditions rends a culture that involves a commonality that includes for the most part: a shared language, moral and religious beliefs, behaviors, values, norms, expectations, a future oriented mindset, competitiveness, practicality, equality & prosperity.

Our Constitution was designed so we could alter our exiting laws if we saw fit, but a careful eye was always turned toward protecting and preserving the individualistic spirit and individual liberty, which in turn has created what we now can conveniently refer to as American culture.
 
we don't need an official language for this country. even if english becomes the official language, ppl are still going to speak foreign languages. I think that immigrants planning to move to america should try to learn some english for their sake.
 
And what about the mothers who do not come home until it's night because they've worked 14 hours or more in the sweatshop? What about the father who stood by home depot for 4 hours in the morning just to see if they can find any work, who usually come home late as well? What about the child who has to run home from school alone because it's danerous? Is he or she garaunteed safety at a church? Safe with people, or better safe alone at home?

Go ahead and stick with your stereotypes of immigrants. I'm sure it will help you rationalize your beliefs.
Wow.. Just WoW!
See the highlighted words above?
And you say I am stereotyping?
You just sounded like you did your research for this post by watching Carlos Mencia, who is known for being a comedian who specializes in racial stereotypes.
:roll:



The point that I was making was that English isn't an easy language to learn in the first place. Do you really think taking a few classes will automatically make some fluent in English?
Nope, but ive met many people who immigrated here from spanish speaking countries who have informed me they learned their working knowledge of the english languages from a few classes and then watching American TV religiously.
 
we don't need an official language for this country. even if english becomes the official language, ppl are still going to speak foreign languages. I think that immigrants planning to move to america should try to learn some english for their sake.

Do you think that the government should have to accomodate anyone who speaks another language other than english for every purpose?

"Here sir, is your (insert language here) driver's license test."
"Here sir, is your (insert language here) 1040 Tax Form"
etc, etc.

Not to mention a speed limit sign having to be as large as a friggin' bus to inform everyone of the speed limit. Because otherwise they will just use that as a reason why they couldn't read the sign.
:roll:
 
No, English is a complex, contradictory, and confusing language to learn for everyone.



Again, the point was to show that English is a hard language to learn. As if a few classes would enable anybody to speak English. I've taken 3 years of French in High School but I wont be able to hold on to a meaningful conversation.

It is not hard at all to speak basic English!

The vocabulary contains hundreds of words that are similar or very close to French (and Spanish, Italian...) words (vocabulaire, similaire, grammaire, différent...). The grammar is often not different from the French/Spanish grammar, there is a single gender ("the" for every name) and no declension.

French is a bit more difficult, as there are 2 genders ("le" and "la"), the orthograph is less simple and it is sometimes more difficult to form the plural or conjugate a verb.

German is even more difficult, as there are declensions/cases, and the vocabulary is totally different.

Polish is even more difficult: there are 5 genders and 7 declensions/cases


I don't say that English is "more simple", but it is not difficult to learn basic English. After 4 hours/week of lessons during 3 years I'm able to talk to you and understand 95% of what you say. And if somebody wants to practise his English, it is extremely easy, as most of the websites/movies/songs/books are in English. Try to find a forum in Dutch!
 
I don't say that English is "more simple", but it is not difficult to learn basic English. After 4 hours/week of lessons during 3 years I'm able to talk to you and understand 95% of what you say.

Yeah? But can you speak Jive?
 
Do you think that the government should have to accomodate anyone who speaks another language other than english for every purpose?

"Here sir, is your (insert language here) driver's license test."
"Here sir, is your (insert language here) 1040 Tax Form"
etc, etc.

Not to mention a speed limit sign having to be as large as a friggin' bus to inform everyone of the speed limit. Because otherwise they will just use that as a reason why they couldn't read the sign.
:roll:

i'm not saying that we should accomedate for every language. i just don't think that we need to label america as "english". i think that immigrants should learn english for their own benefit but not force it onto them. i don't think we should label america as a (blank) nation. like how ppl label america as a christian nation. yeah the majority of americans are christian, but we are a melting pot of people who come from different cultures
 
i'm not saying that we should accomedate for every language. i just don't think that we need to label america as "english". i think that immigrants should learn english for their own benefit but not force it onto them. i don't think we should label america as a (blank) nation. like how ppl label america as a christian nation. yeah the majority of americans are christian, but we are a melting pot of people who come from different cultures

But we aren't talking about labeling America as a "Christian" nation are we?

Hell, we aren't labeling America as an "English" nation either.

By making english the national language, in my opinion, we would be stating that government will only conduct its communication and business in the english language. We can't force people to learn english just like we can't force people to get a job. I wish we COULD force people to get a damned job, would make things alot easier and we'd have less crime, however, thats a totally different topic.

This isn't about "labeling". The government shouldn't intrude in the free market when it comes to business and trade.

However, another thing we need to do is force all school aged children to learn english in the public school systems. Or otherwise we'd have to have seperate schools for non english speaking people, costing billions of extra dollars in construction and new employees. Or, we could just continue to let these non english speaking elementary and middle school students fail classes miserably yet continue to pass them on to the next grade, and crush any self esteem they might have of being here in America and bettering themselves, while at the same time holding other students back because little Juan or little Ali Baba over here can't even speak english let alone read Little Bo Peep.


Are you aware we have students in the 4th, 5th, 6th and up grades who don't even speak english?
 
Why should we make English the national language?

Because unlike the British, we have great command over the English language.

But in reality, I think at the time it wasn't important really so much so it wasn't done, but English really has grown into our national language and it's pretty well part of this country now. It's not terrible to ask people who wish to live here to learn a little English in order to communicate with the rest of us. It's easier then all of us learning 5 or more other languages.
 
Because unlike the British, we have great command over the English language.

But in reality, I think at the time it wasn't important really so much so it wasn't done, but English really has grown into our national language and it's pretty well part of this country now. It's not terrible to ask people who wish to live here to learn a little English in order to communicate with the rest of us. It's easier then all of us learning 5 or more other languages.

I agree, when you move into another country, its basic politess to learn the language of your hosts/neighbors. It should not be compuslory, but they (the immigrants) should do it on their own, that's for their own good.
 
Wow.. Just WoW!
See the highlighted words above?
And you say I am stereotyping?

No, you didn't comprehend what I wrote to you. And isn't that ironic, coming from someone who thinks English isn't so hard to learn?

Read it again. I said, "Stick with your stereotypes." You assumed that I meant stereotyping was wrong. Read more closely and you'll see that what I wrote is pointing out that your stereotyping is a rationalization of your beliefs. I never said that stereotyping is wrong.

I believe we've already had this discussion in another thread regarding racism and ebonics. So you should have known my position about stereotyping already, unless of course you've forgotten.
 
I have still yet to see a good point on why we should shouldn't have it as the National language. What are we afraid it's t o hard to learn because when my family came here in they learned english real fast. Why, because in order to survive in this country you need to learn english. Certainly there are people who can get by without knowing english but for the most part you need to know it. We were founded as a English speaking country and we still are. A country that can't communicate can't exist for very long. We need to stop making accomidations for immigrants. We didn't do that in the 1800's now did we.
 
I have still yet to see a good point on why we should shouldn't have it as the National language. What are we afraid it's t o hard to learn because when my family came here in they learned english real fast. Why, because in order to survive in this country you need to learn english. Certainly there are people who can get by without knowing english but for the most part you need to know it. We were founded as a English speaking country and we still are. A country that can't communicate can't exist for very long. We need to stop making accomidations for immigrants. We didn't do that in the 1800's now did we.

The question could be "why English?". Until not so long ago, there was a strong Dutch speaker group in New York and in Minessota, and I bet there were also strong Italian, French and German speaking groups. However, they all disappeared as those Dutch, French, Italian and German immigrants learnt English.

In international law (and in the Belgian legislative system) there is something called "custom":
-when people do something during a long period of time
+ the opinio juris (the belief that it is a law)
+ the opinio necesitatis (the belief that it is necessary, obliged)
+ the opinio communis (a consensus, most of the people do it)
then, it becomes a law.

It does not need to be written (in the constitution or in a code) to be considered as compulsory.

However, in certain countries, this "customary law" is claimed not to exist (every law must be codified). But I think that you (the USA) have a "common law system" based on jurisprudence so it could be accepted more easily.


Is it necessary? Yes, I think so.
There is a problem of joblessness in Brussels because many Frenchspeakers or foreigners do not learn Dutch. Several studies have showed that if they spoke Dutch, they'd find a job.
And then it is also a question of integration. When you're surrounded by people that you don't understand, there is a problem. And as they came to your country, they should learn the lingua franca spoken by you.
 
I have still yet to see a good point on why we should shouldn't have it as the National language.

You're asking the wrong question.

Some philsophical and legal guru out there will no doubt explain this better than I, but when it comes to law, you get into very dangerous territory by asking "why shouldn't we?" instead of "why should we?"

Regardless of this particular issue, even if you find that there is no good reason not to pass a law, that does not, in and of itself, serve as a good reason to pass a law.

On this particular issue, here are some reasons not to pass it:

1. The very idea is offensive to most non-native English speaking citizens.

2. English is already our national language by default. A law stating that to be the case would only be putting a label on the obvious. It would be about as effective as putting a sign that says "grass" on your lawn.

3. The law will not have the desired effect. Most people who support this legislation do so because they believe it will force people to learn English. It will not. The only effect it will have is to mandate that laws and the like be written in English. This is already the case and it has had no impact on non-English speakers living in the United States.

4. The law will be ineffective. The vast majority of states and locales have already mandated English as their official language, again having little impact on non-English speakers. The federal law would simply go on top of these.

5. If we should ever be interested in expanding our union to include other interested countries, like Puerto Rico, for example, or Quebec (it's not as far fetched as you might think), we may very well find it difficult to include them, and they may be less interested in joining us if we declare English to be our national language.

What are we afraid it's t o hard to learn because when my family came here in they learned english real fast.

It depends upon your native language. You'll have a far, far easier time learning English if your native language is Spanish, Italian, French, etc., than if your native language were Chinese, Russian, Arabic, etc. Chinese is a very good example in that it's a tonal language (different words mean the same thing depending upon tone of voice) and that it uses a completely different alphabet than ours. Languages like that present a whole different set of challenges than the European languages of most of our ancestors.

Regardless, an immigrant should learn English if they come here. I just don't like being in the business of legislating what people should do, which is what most who support national language laws are trying to do.

Why, because in order to survive in this country you need to learn english. Certainly there are people who can get by without knowing english but for the most part you need to know it.

Again, that depends. You do not need to know English in this country if you speak Spanish. It's just the truth. You may find it harder to get by in a state like North Dakota or Maine but, for the most part, especially in major cities, it is entirely possible to go for very long periods of time without ever having to speak English. This is true because of the high number of Spanish speakers in the U.S. as well as the number of businesses and media outlets that cater to Spanish speakers (again, because there are so many).

Other language speakers though will find it vastly more difficult. Of course, Polish, Chinese, Italian, etc. where large communities of these speakers still exist within the U.S., will find it easier than speakers of other languages.

We were founded as a English speaking country and we still are.

Well, the original 13 states were English speaking. We did conquer or buy most of the rest of our territory though and they spoke a different language in those areas before we came along (and still do today, as you'll find if you ever travel to South Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Louisiana, Florida, or to places like Hawaii, Puerto Rico, and other territories). You might find a lot of funny accents on American Indian Reservations across the country too, from Alaska to the Dakotas to New York.

Your point remains valid though, that we are still largely an English speaking country and that our governments (with the possible exception of Puerto Rico) are run completely in English. This is part of the reason that it is not necessary to pass a law.

English is already our national language.

A country that can't communicate can't exist for very long.

Somebody isn't a student of history.

Most countries have existed for hundreds and hundreds of years with several different native languages being spoken within their borders. Usually there is one dominant language, but to give you maybe the best example, China has existed for thousands of years with a number of native languages being spoken within their borders. Even today Mandarin, the dominant language, is only spoken by like two-thirds of the population.

I think China is doing okay.

We need to stop making accomidations for immigrants.

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagee on that point. I think immigrants are a good thing. I think they make us a stronger, richer, better country, and I'm all for accomodating them in every reasonable way possible.

Despite that, I think passing (or not passing) a national language law has very little to do with accomodating anyone, except racists and/or people who get annoyed at the drive-thru (that was for you, Capt'n! ;)).
 
Our culture is predominantly Western european, but it a mix of all the good and progressive points of immigrants from Eastern Europe, Asia, hispanic, and bad right wing aliens from the planet zzzz, like cheney and Bush.

We don't need a national language.:thumbdown:thumbdown:duel
 
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