Ending Public Schools [W:961]

[Misterveritis]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Sorry, it doesn't always work that way - in fact, it seldom does.

What are you arguing? Do you believe someone in government should make your choices for you?

We don't chose what we want, we get a limited number of options from business based on them making a profit.

All options are limited in some real sense. When I helped my daughter buy a laptop we looked at many tens of options. We compared based on weight, screen size, battery-life, keyboard size, hardness, even color. Are you arguing that these choices are not choices because we could not find one that weighed nothing, had infinite battery life, had a screen similar in size to a home entertainment system and was indestructible? oh, and all for under a dollar.

Let's review this again,

We don't chose what we want, we get a limited number of options from business based on them making a profit.

Do you believe that government gives you more choices than a business does? Do you have some examples?
When you go to the DMV how many licensing options do you have to choose from?

Have you ever been to a grocery store? Do you have a choice of fruits and vegetables or is there only one? What about breakfast cereals?

You are not really from around here are you?

If they can't make a large enough profit from a given endeavour or product it will never get done or be offered. Again, if the yellow shirt that I chose isn't offered then I don't get what I wanted. Quit lying.

If you are complaining that you cannot have everything you want then you have an irrelevant point. If you are complaining that you cannot get anything you want then you might want to go see a professional. And if you are complaining that businesses wont provide a far greater number of options than government does in any given area then you are dismissed from the rest of our conversation.

Business must have an acceptable ROI or it will stop offering/never offer a product or service. That's the whole point. Business doesn't give a crap about my wants and needs beyond making their profit.

This is yet one more indicator that government schools are failing us. Your last sentence is almost right. Businesses care about my wants and needs because they can make a profit. What you find bad is actually the engine that results is so much good in our world.

 

[Fiddytree]

If you are looking for some analogy, sometimes education in the private sector could be like ISP options in a given area. Usually there is little choice and dominance by one or two forces, and this also allows folks to have to put up with either mediocre support, customer policies, or speeds. Only recently had competition improved the quality of services, and that is still nothing for the more rural regions (who are mostly stuck with satellite or 56k-based services) of which there are a great many in this geographically large and low population density state.

This also can happen in other areas. In my home town, the same one as discussed before, we had one chain that dominated the home improvement market for decades. Customer support was not great, and there was no competition to drive them to improve with anything that was ridiculous. Not until home depot showed up did they change, which led to home depot shutting down. Sure, we also have lowes now, but this chain still dominates the region and the town. It also took DECADES for things to change.

 

[Boo Radley]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Private schools do not have to be exclusively profit-driven. Few are even today. Financial aid and scholarships are given to students who represent the need or merit to obtain them. The fact that you are worried poor children wont be able to afford education is only further proof that people care about those in need without government forcing them to pay.

Nothing has to be, but largely they are, today. And while some care, the need is greater than the number who care enough to act. Too many would be left behind. I'm sure of that.

 

[Gina]

Re: Ending Public Schools

That's pure BS. You can send your kid to any private school you like. This has been presented to you many times and you continue to ignore it - no doubt because you don't want to hear it or repeat it since it degrades your position.

As for "freedom to purchase" that's crap, too. Businesses give us a few choices that are convenient for them to offer and we must pick from their limited products. Anyone who's ever bought a computer understands this. How many options for an operating system do I have even now??? Three? And one of them is only if I sell my electronic soul to Apple Inc. That's not "freedom of choice" as you've tried to paint it. It's just business taking money from people for things they don't really want but are forced to put up with because they need it. If I need a shirt and want a yellow one but only blue or red are offered then I will not get the yellow shirt I wanted. Where's my freedom?


On the other hand, WE have government run schools and WE elect the people who run these schools - and it's not some mysterious, faceless Board of Directors in some far-off city. WE decide what WE want taught to a large extent. WE decide how much money to allow for that aspect of our community. Many libertarians and far right constantly want to make government into some kind of boogey man but government is nothing more or less than what WE make it --- including the schools. WE would be stupid to give up that power to some faceless company who's only reason for existence is to separate US from OUR money.

The gist of your post, to me, is the issue at hand. The motive of any free-market solution, is profit. First and foremost, not education. Like all businesses, they will force the customer into compromising based not on educating but on the effect to the bottom line. Education should not be treated like it's food, or a movie. Education is the foundation on which people build their lives. It shouldn't be compromised for the sake of profit.

 

[nota bene]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Private schools are profit driven. A poor parent who can't or won't pay? Not likely. Now, this is not a knock against teachers there. But adminstration has a bottom line.

That may be true of some private schools, but it's not true of all of them. As Lakryte has pointed out, scholarships are available. Was checking various sites for updates on Monday's shootings and saw this: Houston Catholic school enrollment strong and growing - Houston Chronicle

 

[Lethargic Aptitude]

Re: Ending Public Schools

That may be true of some private schools, but it's not true of all of them. As Lakryte has pointed out, scholarships are available. Was checking various sites for updates on Monday's shootings and saw this: Houston Catholic school enrollment strong and growing - Houston Chronicle

But who in their right mind would send their kids to a Catholic school?

 

[longview]

Re: Ending Public Schools

The gist of your post, to me, is the issue at hand. The motive of any free-market solution, is profit. First and foremost, not education. Like all businesses, they will force the customer into compromising based not on educating but on the effect to the bottom line. Education should not be treated like it's food, or a movie. Education is the foundation on which people build their lives. It shouldn't be compromised for the sake of profit.

But long term repeat business profit can only be realized by producing a viable competitive product.
The product in this case is a well educated student.
Our current system, because it is a monopoly, produces inconsistent products.

 

[Gina]

Re: Ending Public Schools

But long term repeat business profit can only be realized by producing a viable competitive product.
The product in this case is a well educated student.
Our current system, because it is a monopoly, produces inconsistent products.

However, the product is competitive under their terms, as the post I quoted and several others have demonstrated.

As for "freedom to purchase" that's crap, too. Businesses give us a few choices that are convenient for them to offer and we must pick from their limited products. Anyone who's ever bought a computer understands this. How many options for an operating system do I have even now??? Three? And one of them is only if I sell my electronic soul to Apple Inc. That's not "freedom of choice" as you've tried to paint it. It's just business taking money from people for things they don't really want but are forced to put up with because they need it.

If you are looking for some analogy, sometimes education in the private sector could be like ISP options in a given area. Usually there is little choice and dominance by one or two forces, and this also allows folks to have to put up with either mediocre support, customer policies, or speeds. Only recently had competition improved the quality of services, and that is still nothing for the more rural regions (who are mostly stuck with satellite or 56k-based services) of which there are a great many in this geographically large and low population density state.

These examples are more appropriate in lower population areas, where the number of students may not be lucrative enough to multiple businesses to engage in competition, and goes to my point, that businesses force their choices on us for the sake of their profit, not our interests.

I agree, the "product" of public schools is not perfect. I do not think that is owing to a monopoly. When parents speak out, and I've been to a few of those kinds of district meetings, things will change.

Inconsistencies are caused by multiple factors. Poor, district or individual school administration and yes even poor teachers, but let's not overlook that we are discussing human beings, who can be wildly inconsistent.

 

[MoSurveyor]

Re: Ending Public Schools

What are you arguing? Do you believe someone in government should make your choices for you?

I hate to burst your little libertarian bubble but government IS me - and you (but only if you participate!!!) - and my neighbor. It's all of us. I know, I know, it's a hard concept for a capitalist to grasp. After all, there's no way for you to make money if people pool their money and form their non-profit organization for their own needs.

All options are limited in some real sense. When I helped my daughter buy a laptop we looked at many tens of options. We compared based on weight, screen size, battery-life, keyboard size, hardness, even color. Are you arguing that these choices are not choices because we could not find one that weighed nothing, had infinite battery life, had a screen similar in size to a home entertainment system and was indestructible? oh, and all for under a dollar.

And with all those "choices" you most likely ended up with Windows or Mac OSX (or whatever the latest Apple OS is) as your operating system!

When you go to the DMV how many licensing options do you have to choose from?

Plenty. There are classes of driver's licenses from Class A down to a Learner's Permit. If I only need to drive a car or light truck then all I need is the "car and light truck" (standard) license. If more types of licenses were required we'd pass laws to provide those options but, quite frankly, I can't think of any option that isn't covered. What did you want to drive that isn't covered by a government license - and are you sure you need a DMV license to drive it? Maybe a better questions would be, "Should what you want to drive for which there is no license be allowed on the road with the rest of the vehicles?"

If you are complaining that you cannot have everything you want then you have an irrelevant point. If you are complaining that you cannot get anything you want then you might want to go see a professional. And if you are complaining that businesses wont provide a far greater number of options than government does in any given area then you are dismissed from the rest of our conversation.

It's not irrelevant if you keep saying that's what I can have! When a business does that it's called False Advertising and it's very illegal.

:lamo "I HAVE THE POWER TO DISMISS YOU AND I'M USING IT!!!" :lamo
((Hint: You can quit responding to my posts anytime you'd like.))

This is yet one more indicator that government schools are failing us. Your last sentence is almost right. Businesses care about my wants and needs because they can make a profit.

The only thing business "cares" about is making money. It has no other goal. Quit lying.

What you find bad is actually the engine that results is so much good in our world.

And where, exactly, did I use the word "bad"? Business has it's place and it's up to the citizens of each State to decide where that place is. That's the way this governmental system was set-up over 200 years ago and as far as I know that's still the case. To the best of my knowledge no one, including our collective selves, forces any business to register in any State.

Yes, and business is also responsible for a lot of misery, sickness, and death. It's a part of life regardless of the economic system. You obviously have NO clue what I think about business so quit acting like you do.

 

[Gina]

Re: Ending Public Schools

I hate to burst your little libertarian bubble but government IS me - and you (but only if you participate!!!) - and my neighbor. It's all of us. I know, I know, it's a hard concept for a capitalist to grasp. After all, there's no way for you to make money if people pool their money and form their non-profit organization for their own needs.

And with all those "choices" you most likely ended up with Windows or Mac OSX (or whatever the latest Apple OS is) as your operating system!

Plenty. There are classes of driver's licenses from Class A down to a Learner's Permit. If I only need to drive a car or light truck then all I need is the "car and light truck" (standard) license. If more types of licenses were required we'd pass laws to provide those options but, quite frankly, I can't think of any option that isn't covered. What did you want to drive that isn't covered by a government license - and are you sure you need a DMV license to drive it? Maybe a better questions would be, "Should what you want to drive for which there is no license be allowed on the road with the rest of the vehicles?"

It's not irrelevant if you keep saying that's what I can have! When a business does that it's called False Advertising and it's very illegal.

:lamo "I HAVE THE POWER TO DISMISS YOU AND I'M USING IT!!!" :lamo
((Hint: You can quit responding to my posts anytime you'd like.))

The only thing business "cares" about is making money. It has no other goal. Quit lying.

And where, exactly, did I use the word "bad"? Business has it's place and it's up to the citizens of each State to decide where that place is. That's the way this governmental system was set-up over 200 years ago and as far as I know that's still the case. To the best of my knowledge no one, including our collective selves, forces any business to register in any State.

Yes, and business is also responsible for a lot of misery, sickness, and death. It's a part of life regardless of the economic system. You obviously have NO clue what I think about business so quit acting like you do.

Three excellent points. I participate in government via my vote and addressing my concerns to whichever representative of that government who has responsibility, and you know what? That has worked very well. On the other hand, I have spent loads of time addressing my concerns to some of the businesses who have a monopoly on the services they provide and that has gotten me, no where. I've been comped free services and upgrades, but still the fundamental issues, poor or unresponsive service, remains. My cable/ISP company sucks. My land line service was horrible and expensive, but I had to tolerate it until cellular service offered a viable, cost effective alternative. While this would seem to support the "free market" solution being discussed here, it took technological innovation to achieve. Not something that is super critical to education.

One gets the government they deserve. If you don't participate, you don't have the right to complain.

 

[Lakryte]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Nothing has to be, but largely they are, today. And while some care, the need is greater than the number who care enough to act. Too many would be left behind. I'm sure of that.

Most private schools, even today, offer some type of aid. How are you sure that the need is greater than the number who care enough to act? How can you possibly know that when so many people are forced to pay in the current system? The reason people get grumpy about paying for education is because they are forced to pay for it through taxes. Furthermore, online education and neighborhood homeschooling are incredibly cheap (sometimes nearly free) alternatives that anyone could afford. Your argument rests on the assumption that there will be a significant number of people who cannot afford education and have no means of obtaining it. You have to provide evidence for that assumption, which will be difficult when you realize Americans donate hundreds of billions of dollars each year to charity--even with government taxing them to provide other free services.

 

[Boo Radley]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Most private schools, even today, offer some type of aid. How are you sure that the need is greater than the number who care enough to act? How can you possibly know that when so many people are forced to pay in the current system? The reason people get grumpy about paying for education is because they are forced to pay for it through taxes. Furthermore, online education and neighborhood homeschooling are incredibly cheap (sometimes nearly free) alternatives that anyone could afford. Your argument rests on the assumption that there will be a significant number of people who cannot afford education and have no means of obtaining it. You have to provide evidence for that assumption, which will be difficult when you realize Americans donate hundreds of billions of dollars each year to charity--even with government taxing them to provide other free services.

They vary form place to place (I've moved around a lot), and some financial is largely not enough for many. Around the country I have seen people left out. And have you seen how people do generally online? Last time I checked, they fail far more often than in class. The market does a reasonably good job of proving quality for those who can afford it (eventhough even the wealthy can be taken), and providing cheap, often substandard alternatives for those who can afford something, and next to nothing for the very poor.



The Kappan article’s ending is powerful and sums up the importance of our collective will to commit to the public in public education:

“Certain public institutions—courts, legislatures, fire protection, police departments, and, yes, schools---must remain public to serve a democratic society. Through public education we have expressed and expanded our shared public values…..

What happens to our democracy when we return to an educational system where access is defined by corporate interest and divided by class, language, ability, race, and religion? In a push to free-market education, who pays in the end?”

What I know to be true: in public education when competition is the basis for decision-making, the losers are always children.

Market Forces and Public Education

As flawed as public education may be, the way to improve it is not by abandoning it to the private sector. As anyone in the corporate sector would readily agree, the primary concern of a corporation is to increase its profits. Educators must continue to work to improve schooling but must also fight against the forces that would destroy public education. Educators, community activists, parent groups, consumer advocates, and media watchdog organizations, as well as independent researchers and critical scholars need to be vigilant in exposing the interests behind proponents of voucher programs that pave the way for the privatization of public schools and other aspects of public life.

Privatizing Public Schools:

But I also point you to the market in higher ed. We have many private schools, and among them we have what are called predatory institutions. They are private, among those who go to them are poeple who pay their own tab. But they end up getting little for their money. We also have diploma mills, which the market provided. The amrket produces both good and bad, and the less you have to give the market, the less you will get.

 

[Misterveritis]

If you are looking for some analogy, sometimes education in the private sector could be like ISP options in a given area. Usually there is little choice and dominance by one or two forces, and this also allows folks to have to put up with either mediocre support, customer policies, or speeds. Only recently had competition improved the quality of services, and that is still nothing for the more rural regions (who are mostly stuck with satellite or 56k-based services) of which there are a great many in this geographically large and low population density state.

This also can happen in other areas. In my home town, the same one as discussed before, we had one chain that dominated the home improvement market for decades. Customer support was not great, and there was no competition to drive them to improve with anything that was ridiculous. Not until home depot showed up did they change, which led to home depot shutting down. Sure, we also have lowes now, but this chain still dominates the region and the town. It also took DECADES for things to change.

Once the government gets out of the way there are very low barriers to entry into an exceptionally vibrant education market. There need not be much physical infrastructure like an ISP has. I started one of the first ISP companies. Our barrier to entry was more governmental than physical.

The market is world wide. The proper analogy is groceries. You have a variety of options of stores and within each store a wide variety of different foods available for purchase. And you may order whatever you can pay for.

Big box stores have all of the government regulations plus the cost of the store. They are not the same. The analogy does not work.

 

[Misterveritis]

Re: Ending Public Schools

The gist of your post, to me, is the issue at hand. The motive of any free-market solution, is profit.

What you see as bad I see as the engine that will bring enormous educational experiences. Your fear of free market capitalism leads me to believe you are more socialist than liberal, although I am aware there is very little difference between them.

First and foremost, not education. Like all businesses, they will force the customer into compromising based not on educating but on the effect to the bottom line. Education should not be treated like it's food, or a movie. Education is the foundation on which people build their lives. It shouldn't be compromised for the sake of profit.

The very cool part is that if you are dissatisfied with the offerings you could join with others and start your own company. There are almost no barriers to entry.

 

[Paschendale]

The market is world wide. The proper analogy is groceries. You have a variety of options of stores and within each store a wide variety of different foods available for purchase. And you may order whatever you can pay for.

This is a good analogy, actually. Just not for the reason you think. If you've ever been to grocery store in a poor neighborhood, you'd know that they aren't as clean, well stocked with fresh (safer) produce and meat, and sometimes even kind of dangerous. And one only has reasonable access to multiple stores with adequate transportation. Meaning cars that a lot of poor families don't have. Or well funded public transit, but I'm sure that's not part of your plans. In poor supermarkets, everybody buys the cheap crap. The unhealthy processed products, the frozen meals high in salt and saturated fat (but are cheaper to produce and don't require time that hardworking families don't always have), and lots of bargain brand items. The grocery store analogy is perfect. The quality in the richer neighborhoods will be substantially higher than in poorer ones. And poor kids will be further locked into poverty.

 

[Mathematician]

Re: Ending Public Schools

We've already started the transition in the wrong direction of lowering standards when students and/or parents complain about bad grades. I don't want to imagine what'll happen if education gets completely privatized and "the customer is always right" motto comes into play.

 

[Misterveritis]

This is a good analogy, actually. Just not for the reason you think.

It is a good analogy. And it is for the reasons I think.

If you've ever been to grocery store in a poor neighborhood, you'd know that they aren't as clean, well stocked with fresh (safer) produce and meat, and sometimes even kind of dangerous.

The latter first. The neighborhoods have lousy stores because of the crime. Every now and again the thugs kill people and burn down their neighborhoods. Businesses destroyed in the bloodlust days of summer do not return.

And one only has reasonable access to multiple stores with adequate transportation. Meaning cars that a lot of poor families don't have.

And there is no Internet in poor neighborhoods? By golly you are right. Let's just continue to pay top dollar for mediocre performance, cross our fingers and hope for the best. Good plan. What else do you have?

Or well funded public transit, but I'm sure that's not part of your plans. In poor supermarkets, everybody buys the cheap crap. The unhealthy processed products, the frozen meals high in salt and saturated fat (but are cheaper to produce and don't require time that hardworking families don't always have), and lots of bargain brand items. The grocery store analogy is perfect. The quality in the richer neighborhoods will be substantially higher than in poorer ones. And poor kids will be further locked into poverty.

The difference is the quality of the people. Why do you believe we should aim for the lowest common denominator?

Even in poor supermarkets people have a choice. What you are arguing for is maintaining monopolistic, government-run schools. How is that working out for the poor?

 

[Misterveritis]

Re: Ending Public Schools

We've already started the transition in the wrong direction of lowering standards when students and/or parents complain about bad grades. I don't want to imagine what'll happen if education gets completely privatized and "the customer is always right" motto comes into play.

Is it possible for you to buy something of value in the free market?
Have you ever trained for a certification? The competency-based test resolves the problem of grade inflation. That is why I stated it must be part of the solution to poor educational outcomes. The people who are teaching may grade your work to make sure you are getting what you pay for. But the way the res of us will know is through certifications.

 

[Lakryte]

Re: Ending Public Schools

They vary form place to place (I've moved around a lot), and some financial is largely not enough for many. Around the country I have seen people left out. And have you seen how people do generally online? Last time I checked, they fail far more often than in class. The market does a reasonably good job of proving quality for those who can afford it (eventhough even the wealthy can be taken), and providing cheap, often substandard alternatives for those who can afford something, and next to nothing for the very poor.



The Kappan article’s ending is powerful and sums up the importance of our collective will to commit to the public in public education:

“Certain public institutions—courts, legislatures, fire protection, police departments, and, yes, schools---must remain public to serve a democratic society. Through public education we have expressed and expanded our shared public values…..

What happens to our democracy when we return to an educational system where access is defined by corporate interest and divided by class, language, ability, race, and religion? In a push to free-market education, who pays in the end?”

What I know to be true: in public education when competition is the basis for decision-making, the losers are always children.

Market Forces and Public Education

As flawed as public education may be, the way to improve it is not by abandoning it to the private sector. As anyone in the corporate sector would readily agree, the primary concern of a corporation is to increase its profits. Educators must continue to work to improve schooling but must also fight against the forces that would destroy public education. Educators, community activists, parent groups, consumer advocates, and media watchdog organizations, as well as independent researchers and critical scholars need to be vigilant in exposing the interests behind proponents of voucher programs that pave the way for the privatization of public schools and other aspects of public life.

Privatizing Public Schools:

But I also point you to the market in higher ed. We have many private schools, and among them we have what are called predatory institutions. They are private, among those who go to them are poeple who pay their own tab. But they end up getting little for their money. We also have diploma mills, which the market provided. The amrket produces both good and bad, and the less you have to give the market, the less you will get.

Financial aid is not much of a concern for the poorest of the poor because most people assume they will just go to public schools. It makes sense to imagine that if people are allowed to keep more of their own money and the government is no subsidizing schools, more money will be given voluntarily to schools to help those in need. I would give money myself. Would you?

As for online education, I am not aware how beneficial it is or not. But from what I have read, it does have successes. On a market there will be various qualities of education, some cheaper and some more expensive. There is nothing wrong about poorer people choosing slightly less better education options because that is what they can afford. I would love to have the highest quality house, TV, computer, etc. but I don't. But there isn't anything wrong with that. Resources are scarce, not everyone can have the best of everything at one point in time. And what is best is always changing. Furthermore, it is the free market that allows anyone to be able to afford anything. It allows the poor to advance out of poverty. In addition, people through the market provide for the poor through charity. Even many public schools are helped by donations so they do not collapse. Hence why public schools in wealthier neighborhoods are often of higher quality.

When there is competition among computers, are consumers the losers? When there is competition among baby foods, are babies the losers? It makes little sense to assume competition among education will make children the losers. Access is defined by voluntary action, simple as that. I want schools to be private because I believe private schools will be the best for everyone. (not vouchers).

 

[Boo Radley]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Financial aid is not much of a concern for the poorest of the poor because most people assume they will just go to public schools. It makes sense to imagine that if people are allowed to keep more of their own money and the government is no subsidizing schools, more money will be given voluntarily to schools to help those in need. I would give money myself. Would you?

As for online education, I am not aware how beneficial it is or not. But from what I have read, it does have successes. On a market there will be various qualities of education, some cheaper and some more expensive. There is nothing wrong about poorer people choosing slightly less better education options because that is what they can afford. I would love to have the highest quality house, TV, computer, etc. but I don't. But there isn't anything wrong with that. Resources are scarce, not everyone can have the best of everything at one point in time. And what is best is always changing. Furthermore, it is the free market that allows anyone to be able to afford anything. It allows the poor to advance out of poverty. In addition, people through the market provide for the poor through charity. Even many public schools are helped by donations so they do not collapse. Hence why public schools in wealthier neighborhoods are often of higher quality.

When there is competition among computers, are consumers the losers? When there is competition among baby foods, are babies the losers? It makes little sense to assume competition among education will make children the losers. Access is defined by voluntary action, simple as that. I want schools to be private because I believe private schools will be the best for everyone. (not vouchers).

Then it would likely become corporate schools, which I would dislike more than government.

As for online. I teach online. And one of the things that struck me was how poorly students do online. When I first started I did some investigation and at the time, better than 50% fail rate was common. I think it's a little better now, but not yet in keeping with face to face. And the more help the student needs, the less compatible they are with online.

And education isn't a widget. One of the articles I linked traied a little to hard to explain that. There are several article written how it is different and how market forces often work at cross purposes. I've tried to synthesize that as I'm going to pay to link it for you. But I thought I gave you enough to know I'm not alone in this thought. Education depends as much on the person buying as on the person selling. And what is being sold often gets confused by everyone. Knowledge can't really be sold, but can only be discovered, found. What you pay for is to learn from someone who has a plan, knows the amterial and will give you feedback. In the market, some will the paper as being the product, and will sell it without regard to the learning. Or they will dumb it down so students can seem to succeed and take your money. Passing someone is much easier than actually getting them to learn. As I said, the market has many pluses, but there is also minuses. We should not forget that.

There is also something somewhere, I don't know if I have time right now to look for it, or even if I can access it this way, but that argues the market in education has not really ever been innovative. That has overwhelming came from the public sector. Change, innovation, is seldom as popular as many think it is.

 

[Gina]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Then it would likely become corporate schools, which I would dislike more than government.

As for online. I teach online. And one of the things that struck me was how poorly students do online. When I first started I did some investigation and at the time, better than 50% fail rate was common. I think it's a little better now, but not yet in keeping with face to face. And the more help the student needs, the less compatible they are with online.

And education isn't a widget. One of the articles I linked traied a little to hard to explain that. There are several article written how it is different and how market forces often work at cross purposes. I've tried to synthesize that as I'm going to pay to link it for you. But I thought I gave you enough to know I'm not alone in this thought. Education depends as much on the person buying as on the person selling. And what is being sold often gets confused by everyone. Knowledge can't really be sold, but can only be discovered, found. What you pay for is to learn from someone who has a plan, knows the amterial and will give you feedback. In the market, some will the paper as being the product, and will sell it without regard to the learning. Or they will dumb it down so students can seem to succeed and take your money. Passing someone is much easier than actually getting them to learn. As I said, the market has many pluses, but there is also minuses. We should not forget that.

There is also something somewhere, I don't know if I have time right now to look for it, or even if I can access it this way, but that argues the market in education has not really ever been innovative. That has overwhelming came from the public sector. Change, innovation, is seldom as popular as many think it is.

Brilliant post Boo, top to bottom. Wish I could like it x 10.

I just want to add, it cannot be emphasized enough that education is not a widget. It is not manufactured and put on a shelf in perfect condition for use. It is not service to be rendered like a waitress or clerk in a grocery store or a movie which is watched and for the most part forgotten. It is the foundation on which we all build our lives.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Brilliant post Boo, top to bottom. Wish I could like it x 10.

I just want to add, it cannot be emphasized enough that education is not a widget. It is not manufactured and put on a shelf in perfect condition for use. It is not service to be rendered like a waitress or clerk in a grocery store or a movie which is watched and for the most part forgotten. It is the foundation on which we all build our lives.

Sad that so many students (and their parents) don't share that opinion

 

[Lakryte]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Then it would likely become corporate schools, which I would dislike more than government.

Care to explain why they would all be corporations?

As for online. I teach online. And one of the things that struck me was how poorly students do online. When I first started I did some investigation and at the time, better than 50% fail rate was common. I think it's a little better now, but not yet in keeping with face to face. And the more help the student needs, the less compatible they are with online.

Purely anecdotal evidence, and I have no way of verifying if you are telling the truth. On top of that, you didn't really address my point.

And education isn't a widget. One of the articles I linked traied a little to hard to explain that. There are several article written how it is different and how market forces often work at cross purposes. I've tried to synthesize that as I'm going to pay to link it for you. But I thought I gave you enough to know I'm not alone in this thought. Education depends as much on the person buying as on the person selling. And what is being sold often gets confused by everyone. Knowledge can't really be sold, but can only be discovered, found. What you pay for is to learn from someone who has a plan, knows the amterial and will give you feedback. In the market, some will the paper as being the product, and will sell it without regard to the learning. Or they will dumb it down so students can seem to succeed and take your money. Passing someone is much easier than actually getting them to learn. As I said, the market has many pluses, but there is also minuses. We should not forget that.

There is also something somewhere, I don't know if I have time right now to look for it, or even if I can access it this way, but that argues the market in education has not really ever been innovative. That has overwhelming came from the public sector. Change, innovation, is seldom as popular as many think it is.

I didn't say education was a widget, so that is just another strawman. Your assumption that private schools will not actually try to teach students is completely false. Just look at private schools now. On average they outperform public schools. If the results of a school are not satisfactory, then people will find another school to use. This is true of anything else on the market. If you pay someone to teach you, and to help you learn, and you don't end up learning, that someone is not going to have a job for very long. Public school teachers can be absolutely terrible but it is almost impossible to fire them. Somehow that will result in better learning? How?

Prove that private sector education has not been innovate, and public sector education is the driving force. That is quite an absurd claim. Private education is cheaper per student than public education, and on average the results are better. There is your innovation right there. If public schools were innovative, the massive increases in funding they have been given should have improved their results--it hasn't.

Take a look at this chart:

I'm sorry, but that is the opposite of innovation.

 

[Gina]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Sad that so many students (and their parents) don't share that opinion

Yes it is, I have to agree.

 

[Misterveritis]

Re: Ending Public Schools

Brilliant post Boo, top to bottom. Wish I could like it x 10.

I just want to add, it cannot be emphasized enough that education is not a widget. It is not manufactured and put on a shelf in perfect condition for use. It is not service to be rendered like a waitress or clerk in a grocery store or a movie which is watched and for the most part forgotten. It is the foundation on which we all build our lives.

Don't be silly. You have such a romantic imagination. Educational experiences are exactly like widgets. They can be procured from a wide variety of manufacturers. Some will cater to one group while others cater to others.