Elizabeth Warren: proving progressive ideals are for the weak minded.

Hamster Buddha said:

So you think the Immigration system as is right now is great? Do you have any idea how many illegals are in the country right now, some of which were born and raised here. For example, you really want to deport people who have bled and died for this country. Those that are college educated? Forget all the fine print for the moment (and I grant you, that's where this law gets muddled), are those things really something you oppose?

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The 1996 Illegal Immigration and Reform act, as well as others that have been passed since, have addressed the issues that you have raised. People who have bled and died for this country have special dispensations applied, and have their paths, no matter how tedious, defined for them.

Based on everything I've seen and read, the vast majority of those illegal aliens who are college educated knew very well they were breaking the law. They exploited this country as well, and the education they received is recognition enough. They should be deported, along with any other family members also in this country illegally. Don't blame the laws, blame the family who chose long ago to come here and exploit the citizens of this country for their own personal gain.

thinkforyoursel said:

I guarantee that whatever action the government takes it will not please most Americans...why.....because both party's have a vested interest in these illegals.

If you people on the right stop thinking this is just a liberal issue ...and keep failing to see how complicit the republicans are ....this issue will never get a resolution that's good for the average middle class American.

I remember in 2000 and 2004 seeing many Mexicans riding around in their truck with '''W 04" ..sticker on the back. The illegals are not democrats ..or republicans...they will forever have a single cause ...and they''l support any party they feel can get more and more ...and more of them here!


But over and over again ...the right wing exploit your hate and have you constantly acting against your own interest!

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You argue that both sides have a vested interest in the illegals, and then neglect to point out what the issue with the dems are. If all the illegals in the country were to suddenly become legal and be able to vote, they'd overwhelmingly support Democrats. That may be fine for you, but it's not right to have people who haven't earned their citizenship to suddenly have a voice in how the system is shaped. It be like letting in a ten or twenty million Russians in all of a sudden; you could be damn sure we'd be a lot more sympathetic to them at this point ... and not because we should or shouldn't be, but because of the influx.

Hamster Buddha said:

Road goes both ways though. Not like Obama has shown he wants to work with Reps. They have ideas on this, but their discounted as not real or w.e the excuse. Both sides just don't respect each other anymore... maybe even hate, you can't get things done like that.

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Before President Obama was sworn in, the GOP plan was to obstruct to regain power. THAT was and has been their "go to" plan, no matter how much it hurt this country. Check my facts, and you might be surprised at how correct I am.

ocean515 said:

The Dream Act was born of a farce. It is based on rewarding those who came here to exploit this country, and have no desire to operate any way differently in the future.

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So, you think these people are escaping their own country to exploit the US.

Raven1 said:

Please refer to comment #252. It doesn't matter if President Obama agrees to republican ideas, republicans will still block it. I think republicans have some serious issues that they're not willing to talk about, but no matter, it will not bode well for them in the long run. Being strictly obstructive is not a plan, it is just, well, obstructive.

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The Repub idea to which he has not agreed is to enforce the law.eace

thinkforyoursel said:

I guarantee that whatever action the government takes it will not please most Americans...why.....because both party's have a vested interest in these illegals.

If you people on the right stop thinking this is just a liberal issue ...and keep failing to see how complicit the republicans are ....this issue will never get a resolution that's good for the average middle class American.

I remember in 2000 and 2004 seeing many Mexicans riding around in their truck with '''W 04" ..sticker on the back. The illegals are not democrats ..or republicans...they will forever have a single cause ...and they''l support any party they feel can get more and more ...and more of them here!


But over and over again ...the right wing exploit your hate and have you constantly acting against your own interest!

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BS. This ploy of suggesting both sides are to blame is nothing but an attempted talking point to deflect blame. The USCOC is not the Republican Party. What some of these business leaders say does not represent the Republican Party as a whole.

If standing on sound economic principle is not acting in one's own self interest, so be it. The threat will not deter a call for what is just and right, no matter the result.

Raven1 said:

Before President Obama was sworn in, the GOP plan was to obstruct to regain power. THAT was and has been their "go to" plan, no matter how much it hurt this country. Check my facts, and you might be surprised at how correct I am.

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1) most of Obama's goals are contrary to the interests of people who voted GOP so they expect the GOP to "obstruct" the welfare socialist goals of Obama

2) I disagree that Obama's goals are good for the country-especially for those of us who actually pay the bills versus those who suckle on the public teat

rabbitcaebannog said:

So, you think these people are escaping their own country to exploit the US.

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Absolutely, as the millions who preceded them have been doing for decades. Do you really think they have come here as refugees?

The Border Patrol released a report last Thursday that documents more "family units" have crossed the border this year, than "unaccompanied children". They aren't escaping, they are coming to exploit. And if liberal/progressives get their way, the reward will be even greater than it already is.

ocean515 said:

The 1996 Illegal Immigration and Reform act, as well as others that have been passed since, have addressed the issues that you have raised. People who have bled and died for this country have special dispensations applied, and have their paths, no matter how tedious, defined for them.

Based on everything I've seen and read, the vast majority of those illegal aliens who are college educated knew very well they were breaking the law. They exploited this country as well, and the education they received is recognition enough. They should be deported, along with any other family members also in this country illegally. Don't blame the laws, blame the family who chose long ago to come here and exploit the citizens of this country for their own personal gain.

Click to expand...

We're not talking about the families at this point, they would be deported just the same under the DREAM Act. And don't you realize just how badly the US is bleeding it's college graduates to other countries? The current laws are crippling our ability to compete in STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) fields. The current system sets quotas that limit individual countries to no more than 7% of all green cards. That makes it harder for applicants from India or China, compared to applicants from Belgium or Iceland. Immigrants make up a surprisingly large share of STEM students in Master's and Ph.D programs: more than 40%. The sheer number has ballooned to 205,600 students as of 2011, according to Immigration and Customs Enforcement records. If we as a country are going to compete in the 21st century, than we need these people to stay here instead of going to countries like China and India to make technological or scientific achievements elsewhere.

Here's just one story for you:

NYT said:

Foreign students face the same problems that eventually forced Deshpande back to India. He came on a student visa and earned a Master's degree in computer science in 2004. The job he landed at a tiny consulting firm near Washington, D.C. got him an H1-B work visa.

A race against time ensued.

H1-Bs typically last only six years, and Deshpande had to undergo several steps to get in line for a shot at permanent residency. Every part of the application is sensitive, so Deshpande couldn't change job titles too quickly -- or employers either.

When he got a new job, his application ran into delays. When that company was acquired by a larger firm, there were even more setbacks.

In those years, Deshpande made the United States home, volunteering with the Red Cross and hiking in national parks. But in January 2010, he found himself forced to leave.

He waited jobless -- yet hopeful -- in his hometown of Nagpur for six months. By the time immigration officials announced his application had successfully reached the final stage, Deshpande had already started working as senior vice president of an Indian coal imports company. Next month, Deshpande is launching his own data analytics firm, one he wishes he would have started in the United States.

"It's unfortunate for the United States that a lot of talented and skilled people have to leave the country, people who want to be there and can contribute to the tax revenue," he said.

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That right there is just one example of the last jobs and tax revenues that we have endured because of a deeply flawed system that pushes talent away from us and into the arms of others.

Hamster Buddha said:

You argue that both sides have a vested interest in the illegals, and then neglect to point out what the issue with the dems are. If all the illegals in the country were to suddenly become legal and be able to vote, they'd overwhelmingly support Democrats. That may be fine for you, but it's not right to have people who haven't earned their citizenship to suddenly have a voice in how the system is shaped. It be like letting in a ten or twenty million Russians in all of a sudden; you could be damn sure we'd be a lot more sympathetic to them at this point ... and not because we should or shouldn't be, but because of the influx.

Click to expand...

If Obama today got tough with the illegals and start mass deportations ...what do you think would happen? The republicans would step into the void and suddenly start sounding like the democrats ....that's what would happen.

In addition long term, the children of those legalized immigrants would not necessarily be democrats.

Blacks over and over again allow many groups to exploit their civil right cause ...gays, women..and now illegals....as soon as they get what they want they quickly dis-associate themselves with blacks!

But I can't say this enough ...this immediate act to never see a cause you can ever agree with liberals on....keeps perpetuating this dysfunctional ruse played by the politicians. We saw this with the bank bail outs a few years ago.... with the occupy movement! I was sick to my stomach watching the right wing ignoring how the big banks have played the American people ...just so they can vilify the left! I swear if liberals claim we need ..OXYGEN to live ...you people would find a reason why you cannot agree!

Raven1 said:

Before President Obama was sworn in, the GOP plan was to obstruct to regain power. THAT was and has been their "go to" plan, no matter how much it hurt this country. Check my facts, and you might be surprised at how correct I am.

Click to expand...

For the second term than I agree that is the case. However, it's not like in the first term he was reaching across the aisle for help. He took advantage of his super majority and said "**** You Reps and your ideas", and now that the Reps have power, they are understandably quite pissed. You know that the laws like Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security were never fought over after they were passed. That's is because the leaders who wanted these to go into effect, took the time to listen to the other side and implement some of their ideas. This is the reason that Reps to this day want to repeal that law.

ocean515 said:

Absolutely, as the millions who preceded them have been doing for decades. Do you really think they have come here as refugees?

The Border Patrol released a report last Thursday that documents more "family units" have crossed the border this year, than "unaccompanied children". They aren't escaping, they are coming to exploit. And if liberal/progressives get their way, the reward will be even greater than it already is.

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Hmmmm, and all this time I thought they were coming here to try and live the American Dream. What exactly do they come to exploit?

thinkforyoursel said:

If Obama today got tough with the illegals and start mass deportations ...what do you think would happen? The republicans would step into the void and suddenly start sounding like the democrats ....that's what would happen.

In addition long term, the children of those legalized immigrants would not necessarily be democrats.

Blacks over and over again allow many groups to exploit their civil right cause ...gays, women..and now illegals....as soon as they get what they want they quickly dis-associate themselves with blacks!

But I can't say this enough ...this immediate act to never see a cause you can ever agree with liberals on....keeps perpetuating this dysfunctional ruse played by the politicians. We saw this with the bank bail outs a few years ago.... with the occupy movement! I was sick to my stomach watching the right wing ignoring how the big banks have played the American people ...just so they can vilify the left! I swear if liberals claim we need ..OXYGEN to live ...you people would find a reason why you cannot agree!

Click to expand...

First off, before you start putting me into a camp, you might want to actually read some of my posts here...

Hamster Buddha said:

I'm just curious, and I selected you two because you seem on opposite sides of the coin here on the topic, but anyone can feel free to comment on it:

Why is this an either/or sort of thing? Why can't we have our cake and eat it to when it comes to the issue. Secure the border by putting the National Guard on it, and Pass the Dream Act. Both sides get what they want don't they?

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Second, we did use to get things done together, but it was usually because both sides were willing to take the political hit. Yeah the left-wingers would accuse the right of being "baby-killers" and the right-wingers would be talking about "amnesty", but at the end of the day... the reason congress has 15% approval isn't cause of what there passing, but because their not doing anything. If they both jumped off the cliff together, reps agreed to the Dream Act (i.e pathway to citizenship) and dems agreed to tougher enforcement (i.e. deport these kids taht are coming across now), then we'd see a congress with record approval ratings... it may even go to 20%

Finally, you bring up the blacks is a really bad example. You know that 90% of those voted for Obama ... twice.

Hamster Buddha said:

We're not talking about the families at this point, they would be deported just the same under the DREAM Act. And don't you realize just how badly the US is bleeding it's college graduates to other countries? The current laws are crippling our ability to compete in STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) fields. The current system sets quotas that limit individual countries to no more than 7% of all green cards. That makes it harder for applicants from India or China, compared to applicants from Belgium or Iceland. Immigrants make up a surprisingly large share of STEM students in Master's and Ph.D programs: more than 40%. The sheer number has ballooned to 205,600 students as of 2011, according to Immigration and Customs Enforcement records. If we as a country are going to compete in the 21st century, than we need these people to stay here instead of going to countries like China and India to make technological or scientific achievements elsewhere.

Here's just one story for you:



That right there is just one example of the last jobs and tax revenues that we have endured because of a deeply flawed system that pushes talent away from us and into the arms of others.

Click to expand...

I employ electrical design engineers. I know first hand the lack of US candidates in the fields you mentioned. From my perspective, I don't see us pushing people away, I see us not encouraging those who are here. For example, our student loan program is a farce. It's a crime. We have a serious problem creating STEM area graduates. We certainly don't need to encourage more imported talent.

For example, in my opinion, if people need student loans to complete college, they should be rewarded only for those majors in areas where there is a need in these core subjects. It's criminal to allow a young person to take on $10's of thousands in debt to get a degree in some meaningless discipline. If they want that, get a private loan.

ocean515 said:

Absolutely, as the millions who preceded them have been doing for decades. Do you really think they have come here as refugees?

The Border Patrol released a report last Thursday that documents more "family units" have crossed the border this year, than "unaccompanied children". They aren't escaping, they are coming to exploit. And if liberal/progressives get their way, the reward will be even greater than it already is.

Click to expand...

Only for the illegals, and only for a short while, IMO. The world is laughing at us, and we just don't like that! We represent ourselves as a nation of laws - all laws - and our law on illegal immigration is being deliberately ignored. What if all of us just decided to ignore laws we don't like - wouldn't that be fun to live through! :no: We have always welcomed legal immigrants, and this country is the better for it. Illegals are breaking our laws, and they want and expect to be rewarded for it? What idiotic nonsense!

rabbitcaebannog said:

Hmmmm, and all this time I thought they were coming here to try and live the American Dream. What exactly do they come to exploit?

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OUR American Dream.

If they wanted to pursue theirs, they'd understand it requires they do so legally.

They don't care one bit about the concept of "The American Dream". What they understand is that it's a dream Americans are willing to let them exploit the country.

polgara said:

Only for the illegals, and only for a short while, IMO. The world is laughing at us, and we just don't like that! We represent ourselves as a nation of laws - all laws - and our law on illegal immigration is being deliberately ignored. What if all of us just decided to ignore laws we don't like - wouldn't that be fun to live through! :no: We have always welcomed legal immigrants, and this country is the better for it. Illegals are breaking our laws, and they want and expect to be rewarded for it? What idiotic nonsense!

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Well stated! This meme that "but we are a nation of immigrants" is just an attempt to change the narrative away from the truth that the issue is legal vs. illegal.

The One World Government forces would have us believe it's a good thing to have open borders between all nations. Well, look what's happening in the EU.

We are a generous nation, and legal immigrants are certainly most welcome. Exploitation should never be encouraged, nor rewarded.

ocean515 said:

I employ electrical design engineers. I know first hand the lack of US candidates in the fields you mentioned. From my perspective, I don't see us pushing people away, I see us not encouraging those who are here. For example, our student loan program is a farce. It's a crime. We have a serious problem creating STEM area graduates. We certainly don't need to encourage more imported talent.

For example, in my opinion, if people need student loans to complete college, they should be rewarded only for those majors in areas where there is a need in these core subjects. It's criminal to allow a young person to take on $10's of thousands in debt to get a degree in some meaningless discipline. If they want that, get a private loan.

Click to expand...

But if we're not getting American born students to attend these fields, then we have to get them from somewhere right? Why does it matter where they are born if they are being educated and graduated in STEM fields? Are American tech graduates somehow superior to one from India? I get the whole indignity of the fact they got here illegally, and the fact that many have, and would use the system to their advantage. But at this point, isn't it doing more harm to the future of the country by discouraging them from staying? (I agree, that's put better the way you said it).

Hamster Buddha said:

For the second term than I agree that is the case. However, it's not like in the first term he was reaching across the aisle for help.

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No, you have your facts mixed up. Republicans said this before President Obama was sworn in the first time. Still, Obama did try to reach across the aisle to Republicans, much to the dismay of the democratic base. In fact, many democrats tuned out after President Obama tried reaching across the aisle knowing exactly what Republicans' intentions were. I felt he did the right thing, even though I knew what the result would be.

Hamster Buddha said:

He took advantage of his super majority and said "**** You Reps and your ideas", and now that the Reps have power, they are understandably quite pissed. You know that the laws like Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security were never fought over after they were passed. That's is because the leaders who wanted these to go into effect, took the time to listen to the other side and implement some of their ideas. This is the reason that Reps to this day want to repeal that law.

Click to expand...

You did not pay attention like I did, or perhaps you perceived things differently as they happened. But the facts are the facts. At no point did Republicans in Congress take President Obama's offers across the aisle. They obstructed, obscured, and criticized. They offered no plan in return, and fought and rejected even their own ideas. They shut down the government, hurt our nation's credit, threatened to impeach, and now they are suing President Obama. You can try to ride the fence all you want, and I have my own criticisms for President Obama and the Democratic Party, but on this issue of obstruction, the Republicans stepped waaayyyyy overboard. Can you ever recall a party in Congress that ever did this in American history? Not even in the 1850's did this take place.

Hamster Buddha said:

But if we're not getting American born students to attend these fields, then we have to get them from somewhere right? Why does it matter where they are born if they are being educated and graduated in STEM fields? Are American tech graduates somehow superior to one from India? I get the whole indignity of the fact they got here illegally, and the fact that many have, and would use the system to their advantage. But at this point, isn't it doing more harm to the future of the country by discouraging them from staying? (I agree, that's put better the way you said it).

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Shortages of anything inspires people to step into the void. These fields are highly paid and rewarding. I think from the dozen engineers I have on staff, perhaps two were born here, and graduated from US colleges and universities. I think it's ridiculous, but it's how it is right now. If we keep ignoring this demand by filling it with people from other countries, how are we supposed to get the focus back? To the very best of my knowledge, every foreign born engineer I have dealt with has come here legally.

Again, that is why I would support a system that identifies need, and directs available student loans to those disciplines.

Raven1 said:

No, you have your facts mixed up. Republicans said this before President Obama was sworn in the first time. Still, Obama did try to reach across the aisle to Republicans, much to the dismay of the democratic base. In fact, many democrats tuned out after President Obama tried reaching across the aisle knowing exactly what Republicans' intentions were. I felt he did the right thing, even though I knew what the result would be.

You did not pay attention like I did, or perhaps you perceived things differently as they happened. But the facts are the facts. At no point did Republicans in Congress take President Obama's offers across the aisle. They obstructed, obscured, and criticized. They offered no plan in return, and fought and reject even their own ideas. They shut down the government, hurt our nation's credit, threatened to impeach, and now they are suing President Obama. You can try to ride the fence all you want, and I have my own criticisms for President Obama and the Democratic Party, but on this issue of obstruction, the Republicans stepped waaayyyyy overboard. Can you ever recall a party in Congress that ever did this in American history? Not even in the 1850's did this take place.

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There wasn't any obstruction towards Obama's in the beginning because the Democrats controlled both parties in Congress. The only reason Obamacare took forever to get passed was there was an uprising among the Blue Dogs over how far left the law was. And if your talking about going away from the idea of a Single Payer System (which I know upset many of the hardcore liberals) Obama knew from the very beginning that wasn't going to fly, and thus rejected that idea before it gained any ground. Also, he tried to throw in a red herring by saying the exchanges were a republican idea in regards to Romneycare. The problem was, this was never something a majority of Republicans ever wanted. And why do people say the Republicans had no ideas in regards to healthcare? Just google "Republican healthcare plans", there's like five different ones. At no point in the process were the ideas like competing across state lines or tort reform every brought up.

The blame for the Obstructionism falls more on Obama than it does with the Republicans though. It's the job of the President to nuture those relationships with members of the opposing party to get things that he wants done. This is what many of the great Presidents have done. Reagan didn't control congress, but he still go a lot done, and so did Clinton. At this point in time, both sides are obstructing and that's just how things are. You bring up Republicans not doing this or that, but it's not like the Senate has taken up any of the bills that have come over to them. It took them four damn years to pass a budget!

Raven1 said:

Before President Obama was sworn in, the GOP plan was to obstruct to regain power. THAT was and has been their "go to" plan, no matter how much it hurt this country. Check my facts, and you might be surprised at how correct I am.

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Actually, the meeting to which I believe you refer took place at dinner on 20 January 2009, therefore after BHO was sworn in.eace

ocean515 said:

Well stated! This meme that "but we are a nation of immigrants" is just an attempt to change the narrative away from the truth that the issue is legal vs. illegal.

The One World Government forces would have us believe it's a good thing to have open borders between all nations. Well, look what's happening in the EU.

We are a generous nation, and legal immigrants are certainly most welcome. Exploitation should never be encouraged, nor rewarded.

Click to expand...

You speak of One World Government and open borders. What are your thoughts on free trade, and where do you suppose your republican colleagues stand on the issue?

ocean515 said:

OUR American Dream.

If they wanted to pursue theirs, they'd understand it requires they do so legally.

They don't care one bit about the concept of "The American Dream". What they understand is that it's a dream Americans are willing to let them exploit the country.

Click to expand...

So, you're not going to answer the question. What are they exploiting in the country?

Raven1 said:

You speak of One World Government and open borders. What are your thoughts on free trade, and where do you suppose your republican colleagues stand on the issue?

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I believe our trade negotiators have been abysmal failures, and "my colleagues" as you put covers too many people to understand who you are attempting to lump into one group.