Eliminating the minimum wage...

[Iriemon]

That would depend how you define "workers." The problem with a minimum wage is that it kicks people off the payroll altogether. So if you don't count those folks among the "lowest paid workers," then of course it would appear to improve the quality of life.

Then the question becomes whether the marginal level of unemployment created by the minimum wage outweighs the benefits to those who work and earn the minimum wage to at least have a above-poverty level of existance for their labor.

 

[LeftyHenry]

The very fact that your former employer didnt try to squander every penny his business made and actually pay people what they are worth is evidence that some business owners actually care for their employees.

Oh I see so people are worth money? Isn't that like slavery? Oh wait I forgot about wage-slavery.

The reason i believe this is because one of my best friends parents moved here from Romania with nothing. They didnt have the luxury of even knowing our language. What they did posess is the work ethic to suceed. Now they live in a $500,000 home, and live what they believe is the american dream.

Do you know why they left? I remember the distinct words as being,"you go nowhere under those communist mother ****ers!" The man lived under a socialist economy and knew there was no way to be more than average.

Nice. Now lets talk about My slovak relatives who worked hard, got a wonderful education, free and quality healthcare, a pension. They worked 6 hour days. After the fall, they lost everything. Their kids couldn't go to school because they couldn't afford books, they're free healthcare disapeared, their pension evaporated and their work days are sometimes up to 14 hours long!

That is the life of the working class under capitalism. You're well educated parents got lucky and lived the American dream. For millions of others, the opposite is true. The lower working class of the inner city cannot rise under this system.

 

[PeteEU]

Well considering that the lowest paid workers are paid $0, cause they're out of work, no, the minimum wage didn't make their lives any better, just made more of them.
And then explain to all of the people who've lost their jobs overseas why it was necessary to develop markets such as those in India.

Minimum wage benefits very few people. At my job, for instance, if they raised the minimum wage to the proposed $7.20, I would get $.20 more an hour, adding up to a wopping 12 dollars each paycheck ($9.80 after taxes). Clearly, not a whole lot of marginal value in that. But because of the raise in the minimum wage, 15 employees working 30 hour weeks, that adds $90 a week in labor expenses, thus making it more profitable to fire at least one employee. So in exchange for me and my friends getting an extra $20 a month, some poor kid loses his job.

So you would want to get rid of minium wage. This way the outsourcing would stop, because the US worker would go down to the same or lower wage as his indian or chinese counterpart?

So you expect that a US worker could live off 2 bucks a day?

I kinda doubt prices will go down over night to compensate for this massive downgrade in wages for the lowest paid..

Getting rid of the minimum wage would infact increase poverty as more people might be able to get work, but the wage they get from said work would not be enought to meet thier basic needs. To do make such a thing work, then prices would have to decline also and frankly thats never gonna happen.

Another problem would be a huge increase between the lowest paid unskilled and the medium paid skilled people and up. Its not like the wages of skilled people would go down by much, as replacing them aint exactly easy or cheap, where as unskilled labour is a dime a dozen.

You would also have to get rid of unemployement insurance, because if the lowest wages go under minimum unemployement insurance.. why work?

Add to that, crime would probally skyrocket.. why work for nothing when you can rob someone so you can feed your whole family?

 

[jamesrage]

What this could do is keep unemployment down, improve the economy, and give the homeless a chance. But in our current system, why pay a bum crappy money if an illegal will work for the same and probably do a better job?

What this would do is create more people dependent on tax payer funded assistance and possibly raise the crime rate.

 

[Kandahar]

What this would do is create more people dependent on tax payer funded assistance and possibly raise the crime rate.

Umm no it wouldn't. Eliminating the minimum wage would lower the unemployment rate, and as we all know there is a correlation between unemployment and crime. So if anything, eliminating the minimum wage would LOWER the crime rate. And it wouldn't cost any more in terms of government assistance; the market would be more efficient than price controls on labor.

 

[jamesrage]

Umm no it wouldn't. Eliminating the minimum wage would lower the unemployment rate, and as we all know there is a correlation between unemployment and crime. So if anything, eliminating the minimum wage would LOWER the crime rate. And it wouldn't cost any more in terms of government assistance; the market would be more efficient than price controls on labor.

When rent is still 400 month plus bills a below minimum wage job is not going to cut it.Tax payers are still going to have to foot the tab.The businesses would systematically lower wages way below minimum wage and the pro illegals like bush would find another excuse to bring in more people to undermine the local work forces.Having a job means nothing if you can not pay bills and the support yourself with that job.

 

[Kandahar]

When rent is still 400 month plus bills a below minimum wage job is not going to cut it.

$0 per hour, because you can't find a job at all thanks to the minimum wage, isn't going to cut it either.

Tax payers are still going to have to foot the tab.The businesses would systematically lower wages way below minimum wage and the pro illegals like bush would find another excuse to bring in more people to undermine the local work forces.

Eliminating the minimum wage would eliminate the incentive for employers to hire illegal immigrants in the first place. Think about it: If I'm hiring employees for a job that's only worth $3, the government will make me pay US citizens $5.15 per hour. But if I hire illegals, I only have to pay them $3 per hour. That's a pretty strong incentive for them to break the law, isn't it? On the other hand, if there were no minimum wage, then I could pay US citizens and illegals the same wage, thus eliminating the incentive to break the law in the first place.

Having a job means nothing if you can not pay bills and the support yourself with that job.

If your job doesn't pay you enough to meet your basic needs, why on earth would you take that job?

 

[jamesrage]

$0 per hour, because you can't find a job at all thanks to the minimum wage, isn't going to cut it either.

So everyone making almost $0 per hour is much better than people making minimum wage?

Eliminating the minimum wage would eliminate the incentive for employers to hire illegal immigrants in the first place.

If the minimum wage was eliminated there would be a lot more people not working those jobs because $3 an hour does not pay the bills and therefore alot more illegal aliens will be working those jobs.

Think about it: If I'm hiring employees for a job that's only worth $3, the government will make me pay US citizens $5.15 per hour. But if I hire illegals, I only have to pay them $3 per hour. That's a pretty strong incentive for them to break the law, isn't it?

If the minimum wage was eliminated you will have a stronger incentive to betray your country,because 3 an hour is not going to pay for hardly anything,therefore more traitorous employers will be hiring illegals.You can not change the cost of food,utilities,housing,fuel for vehicles and other things.You may think a job is only worth $3 but to that person busting his *** off to work that job it is worth more than $3 an hour.

On the other hand, if there were no minimum wage, then I could pay US citizens and illegals the same wage, thus eliminating the incentive to break the law in the first place.

If traitorous businesses were locked up,severely fined , their property confiscated,their right to vote taken away,and their future ability to own and or operate a business taken away alot of employers would have alot of incentive to obey the law.

If your job doesn't pay you enough to meet your basic needs, why on earth would you take that job?

Because not every one can get the job they want.

 

[128shot]

Because not every one can get the job they want.

fact of life


deal with it.

 

[Synch]

Because not every one can get the job they want.

If only we lived in utopia.

So everyone making almost $0 per hour is much better than people making minimum wage?

With a minimum wage many will be worse off as the quantity demanded for their labour decreases and they become unemployed.

If the minimum wage was eliminated there would be a lot more people not working those jobs because $3 an hour does not pay the bills and therefore alot more illegal aliens will be working those jobs.

HS economic james, if the wage offered does not supply enough employees the wage will rise because shortages cause the price to rise unless governmental agencies intervene.

If the minimum wage was eliminated you will have a stronger incentive to betray your country,because 3 an hour is not going to pay for hardly anything,therefore more traitorous employers will be hiring illegals.You can not change the cost of food,utilities,housing,fuel for vehicles and other things.You may think a job is only worth $3 but to that person busting his *** off to work that job it is worth more than $3 an hour.

How are these illegals earning 3$ an hour living? Or are they a different species and can live on less than Americans can?

If traitorous businesses were locked up,severely fined , their property confiscated,their right to vote taken away,and their future ability to own and or operate a business taken away alot of employers would have alot of incentive to obey the law.

No, you only create large disincentives for small businesses not not exist..

 

[jamesrage]

If only we lived in utopia.

Your the one thinking people live with almost making next to nothing.

With a minimum wage many will be worse off as the quantity demanded for their labour decreases and they become unemployed.

With minimum wage **** will still be the same

HS economic james, if the wage offered does not supply enough employees the wage will rise because shortages cause the price to rise unless governmental agencies intervene.

Not employers will just resort to hiring illegals and you will have more people mooching off the welfare system because why work when you can make more just sitting on your ***?

How are these illegals earning 3$ an hour living? Or are they a different species and can live on less than Americans can?

Half a dozen illegals or more living in a one bedroom house.

No, you only create large disincentives for small businesses not not exist..

If they can not run a business with a legal work force then they have no business owning and or operating a business.

 

[Synch]

If they can not run a business with a legal work force then they have no business owning and or operating a business.

And there goes thousands of small businesses...

Your the one thinking people live with almost making next to nothing.

The minimum wage shouldn't be a living wage, it's for entry level workers who have no skills whatsoever.

With minimum wage **** will still be the same

Our current 5.15$ has little impact, if you adjust for living expenses those states with higher MWs too have little effect also. If we abolish the minimum wage now the gain will be minuscule if detectable at all, but if we decide to raise to a "living wage", all hell will break loose.

Not employers will just resort to hiring illegals and you will have more people mooching off the welfare system because why work when you can make more just sitting on your ***?

Reduce the welfare system?

Half a dozen illegals or more living in a one bedroom house.

What percent of the illegal population lives like that? I'd like to have some source on that please.

 

[jamesrage]

And there goes thousands of small businesses...

Just the ones in California and other states that use illegal labor.

The minimum wage shouldn't be a living wage, it's for entry level workers who have no skills whatsoever.

Minimum wage exist so that there are no Andrew Carnegies out there exploiting the hell out of the working class.

Our current 5.15$ has little impact, if you adjust for living expenses those states with higher MWs too have little effect also. If we abolish the minimum wage now the gain will be minuscule if detectable at all, but if we decide to raise to a "living wage", all hell will break loose.

I imagine before the first minimum wage was enacted many of the pro-slave wage camp said the same thing.

Unless illegal immigrants does not count as the "people".

Illegals are not citizens they have no rights in this country and have no right to be here.

What percent of the illegal population lives like that? I'd like to have some source on that please.

Then please explain how someone can live in a $300-$500 month apparent/house plus pay all the bills and still be able to afford food while making $3 an hour.

 

[Synch]

Then please explain how someone can live in a $300-$500 month apparent/house plus pay all the bills and still be able to afford food while making $3 an hour.

First, who the hell makes 3$ an hour? Most wages below the current minimum wage are marginally lower, baby 4.50 or above. If someone works 6 days a week 10 hours each day, they can scrap 1080$ a month with 4.5. Plus, most of these workers making minimum wage should teenagers in High School.

Minimum wage exist so that there are no Andrew Carnegies out there exploiting the hell out of the working class.

Andrew Caregie did much more for the "working class" than any of those politicians who created/raised the minimum wage...

I imagine before the first minimum wage was enacted many of the pro-slave wage camp said the same thing.

What exactly is a "slave wage"? Also it's impossible to measure its impacts since subsequent to its passing there was a world war which led to an economic and population boom, however recent studies have shown the minimum wage and a hike to negatively impact teenager, the guy who wants to increase it says so himself.

Lawrence Katz, an economist at Harvard University and signatory of the EPI's letter, agrees "most reasonably well-done estimates show small negative effects on employment among teenagers".

And this guy's biased towards raising the minimum wage. Now let's look to the other side.

Mr Neumark(Economist at UC Irvenes), unsurprisingly perhaps, finds the opposite result. He claims that increased minimum wages actually increase slightly the number of families in poverty(presumably because these workers disproportionately lost their jobs while well-off teenagers got higher wages).

Why hire a guy in his 40s when you can get more labour out of a 17/8 year old?

Illegals are not citizens they have no rights in this country and have no right to be here.

Legalize them.

 

[1069]

The minimum wage shouldn't be a living wage, it's for entry level workers who have no skills whatsoever.

In that case, should the employer provide housing to these "entry level workers"?
Food? Other basic necessities?
Skills or no skills, people need a roof over their heads if they are to work at all.
In fact, they need the basic necessities of life regardless of whether or not they work and how skilled or unskilled they are.
If employers don't pay enough to provide the basic necessities such as food and housing, than the federal government will have to provide it with taxpayer dollars.
Personally, I'd prefer that employers simply pay an adequate wage, and obviously they aren't going to do so out of the goodness of their hearts. They will have to be compelled by law.

 

[Synch]

In that case, should the employer provide housing to these "entry level workers"?

No, their parents should provide it to them..

 

[1069]

No, their parents should provide it to them..

In other words, parents should support their adult offspring?
Or are you saying that minor children should enter the work force?
Which?

 

[Synch]

Or are you saying that minor children should enter the work force?
Which?

Minor children of 16 do enter the workforce...

In other words, parents should support their adult offspring?

It's their fault for raising a child with no skills whatsoever.....

 

[SpooK]

It's their fault for raising a child with no skills whatsoever.....

:rofl I just spit water all over myself.

 

[Synch]

:rofl I just spit water all over myself.

Your screen blacked out temporarily and you saw your own reflection?

 

[SpooK]

Your screen blacked out temporarily and you saw your own reflection?

I wasnt insulting you, I just thought it was funny.

Ill be the bigger man here and let that go. Besides, Ive heard 2nd graders use the same material.

 

[Synch]

I wasnt insulting you, I just thought it was funny.

Ill be the bigger man here and let that go. Besides, Ive heard 2nd graders use the same material.

I'm giving up on humor. :hitsfan:

 

[SpooK]

I'm giving up on humor. :hitsfan:

There is no need to do that. You are actually quite talented... please, continue with your economic views. :mrgreen:

 

[WI Crippler]

My god, how did the human race ever evolve without minimum wage laws??

Seriously you cannot believe that the way forward is to provide people with necessities of life. People will earn the things they need in life, because their survival depends on it.

if you hand out "living wages" for marginaly skilled labor you just created a perfectly good reason fo a whole bunch of people to never try and improve their lot in life because they will be able to get by with doing the minimum. That does not move the economy or the individual forward.

 

[PeteEU]

My god, how did the human race ever evolve without minimum wage laws??

Seriously you cannot believe that the way forward is to provide people with necessities of life. People will earn the things they need in life, because their survival depends on it.

if you hand out "living wages" for marginaly skilled labor you just created a perfectly good reason fo a whole bunch of people to never try and improve their lot in life because they will be able to get by with doing the minimum. That does not move the economy or the individual forward.

Great idea in theroy, however it requires a few things.

First off it requires a totaly fair and leveled playing field. This means that education, jobs, housing and so on is based on religious, racial or social dogma. Espeically education has to be free or near free up to a point. Also the racial problems that all societies have can not exist, nor age or sexual discrimination.

It also requires that people in power positions do not exploit thier positions to keep others away or down.. and history has shown us exactly the opposite.

Legislation like the minimum wage, health and safety regulations and so on, have been forced into society because of greedy powerfull people exploiting the weak. We put in laws to prevent child labour because greedy people exploited the poor children. Do you want to get rid of them also, as they also "limit" the market? How about health and safety laws? They do exactly the same.. damn truck drivers are not allowed to drive 36 hours straight anymore!! Stupid hardhats only cost money!

Like it or not there are reasons we have minimum wage like systems, just as we have child labour rules, safety rules and so on. Its to get away from the "survival of the fitest" elitest attitude that held back humanity for thousands of years.