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Drone Blowback in Pakistan is a Myth [W:24, 57]

The whole War on Terror is not a sham, no matter what State Propaganda tells you to believe. Your conspiracy theories about 9/11 don't hold water.

People don't go hole up in the mountains of northern Pakistan or an ISIS held town in Syria because they want to sell Girl Scout cookies.

They go up there to fight a jihad.

And people like you who miss the forest for the trees, and then miss half the trees as well, don't get it.

Of course its a sham

It was a sham when it was first initiated under Reagan and it's a sham now

AQ attacks the US , US war against AQ

AQ attacks Syria , US support for AQ

The same has been playing out for years with the Western powers colluding with radical Islam

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Secret-Affairs-Britains-Collusion-Radical/dp/1846687640
 
Yes there is , but when things go wrong in a left leaning country the treatment in the press and MSM is different. And why shouldn't it be when you consider the western media is corporate owned

There are critics and apologists on both sides of the ideological fence.
 
Pompous it may sound to our modern ear, but not to his contemporaries. As for hypocrisy, I think he's innocent of the charge. The statement reflected his true view of both Greeks and Turks. Honesty is often the source of much misery.

WikiLeaks seems to be taking the place of Lord Castlereagh in today's world. :shock:
 
You mean, all the assumptions.



I'm just taking the **** because attempting a serious debate with you is obviously a bridge too far for you .

So no hard feelings , you live and learn
 
There are critics and apologists on both sides of the ideological fence.

So tell me , when have you ever heard in the MSM of the "Capitalist hellhole" that is Haiti or Mexico ?

You don't and it's conspicuous by its absence
 
So tell me , when have you ever heard in the MSM of the "Capitalist hellhole" that is Haiti or Mexico ?

You don't and it's conspicuous by its absence

Both are covered regularly and often negatively. Haiti probably merits the "hell hole" title but Mexico is just a run-of-the-mill developing country.
 
Of course its a sham

It was a sham when it was first initiated under Reagan and it's a sham now

AQ attacks the US , US war against AQ

AQ attacks Syria , US support for AQ

The same has been playing out for years with the Western powers colluding with radical Islam

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Secret-Affairs-Britains-Collusion-Radical/dp/1846687640

Frankly, judging from what I've found about this Mark Curtis guy, he's let his politics(anti capitalist, West= bad) bleed into his historical work, never a good idea.

For example, he's classified the War in Kosovo as "immoral". Why, exactly, he thinks stopping Slobo's thugs from killing every Muslim they could catch is "immoral" is unknown.

The US isn't supporting Al Qaeda. Contrary to Syrian state propaganda, the rebels aren't all Islamic radicals.
 
Both are covered regularly and often negatively. Haiti probably merits the "hell hole" title but Mexico is just a run-of-the-mill developing country.

You've missed my point again Jack

I said when do you hear/see these places referred to as " capitalist hell holes ".
 
Frankly, judging from what I've found about this Mark Curtis guy, he's let his politics(anti capitalist, West= bad) bleed into his historical work, never a good idea.

You mean what you've learned in a 5 mins google ? Never mind

I keep trying to get you to think about this objectivity concept and seeing as it's raised it's head again.

No author/commentator I have ever come across has been able to keep their politics/biases out of their work. We can't be perfectly objective due to our inherent biases founded in our life experiences, personal insecurities, in short our isms

Why it's pointed out in MCs work , like the others , is that it runs contrary to the prevailing narrative . If he were praising western actions nobody but a tiny group of dissident types would question whether his politics had entered into his work.

If you support the narrative as defined by the ruling elites you will be lauded for it, if you dare to question it ( outside of acceptable parameters ) , or worse still try to undermine it , you will be castigated. It's a historical universal

For example, he's classified the War in Kosovo as "immoral". Why, exactly, he thinks stopping Slobo's thugs from killing every Muslim they could catch is "immoral" is unknown.

Well it's not unknown if you are familiar with his work or the work of a few others on this subject

You , unsurprisingly , wish to believe the prevailing narrative that the attack on Serbia was founded on and evolved around a humanitarian concern for the people of Kosovo . Which is in keeping with the image of our leaderships that has been carefully nurtured in the West.

I'll provide another scenario that I think goes some way to explaining why the same event can and is seen as immoral by others and no doubt is most likely what colours MC view. And this is not some fantastical conspiracy theory , the view has a whole raft of facts , numerous reports by various organisations , to support it.

The humanitarian crisis in Kosovo massively increased as a result of the NATO bombing of Serbia and was an expected outcome that intelligence people had predicted. Prior to the NATO bombing most of the killings in Kosovo were carried out by the KLA. Their MO was to attack Serbian police and Serbian civilians , as well as unsupportive Albanian Kosovans , so as to ramp up the Serbian response enough to help NATO leaders justify their armed forces involvement.

And why would NATO leaders be so keen to get involved with an attack on Serbia ?

Because the former FRY ( yugoslavia ) had been digging its heels in to resist the flood to westernized/western led free market policies in all of the countries of the former eastern bloc. In short Serbia had been a thorn in the side.

So here's the angle on why it is seen as immoral

NATO leaders knew the bombing would cause the very situation they claimed to be working against IE a massive humanitarian disaster and ethnic cleansing. But not because of concern for the people of Kosovo , but for their own agenda against Serbia.

In short conspiring to create a humanitarian disaster in order to attack/undermine Serbia.

If that were true , would you think the whole affair was immoral ?

The US isn't supporting Al Qaeda. Contrary to Syrian state propaganda, the rebels aren't all Islamic radicals.

Look at the words you have had to use to try to convince yourself there is no credence to what I said................." aren't all " confirms that some are , correct ? Would it be easier if we just all stated jihadist groups ?

There's a lot of **** being spouted about the conflict in Syria but what isn't in doubt is that the feudal monarchies of Saudi and Qatar etc along with Western powers ARE arming and assisting jihadists fighting in Syria
 
The US does not now and never has supported AQ, in Syria or anywhere else.

The names are different but the ideology is the same , so just for you.

What ? ........... Jihadists fighting Soviets.........the US arms them , funds them and trains them

Jihadists attack US it's a crime and the Jihadists will be hunted down and destroyed



Jihadists attack Syria and it's not a crime , so they are once again entitled to US support arms/funds etc

That better ?
 
That's assumed.

But never stated which is not the case for left leaning governments.

No need to assume , it's shouted from bell towers.
 
The names are different but the ideology is the same , so just for you.

What ? ........... Jihadists fighting Soviets.........the US arms them , funds them and trains them

Jihadists attack US it's a crime and the Jihadists will be hunted down and destroyed



Jihadists attack Syria and it's not a crime , so they are once again entitled to US support arms/funds etc

That better ?

The Afghan mujahideen who fought the Soviets were not jihadis. The groups in Syria supported by the US are not jihadis either.
 
You mean what you've learned in a 5 mins google ? Never mind

I keep trying to get you to think about this objectivity concept and seeing as it's raised it's head again.

No author/commentator I have ever come across has been able to keep their politics/biases out of their work. We can't be perfectly objective due to our inherent biases founded in our life experiences, personal insecurities, in short our isms

Why it's pointed out in MCs work , like the others , is that it runs contrary to the prevailing narrative . If he were praising western actions nobody but a tiny group of dissident types would question whether his politics had entered into his work.

If you support the narrative as defined by the ruling elites you will be lauded for it, if you dare to question it ( outside of acceptable parameters ) , or worse still try to undermine it , you will be castigated. It's a historical universal



Well it's not unknown if you are familiar with his work or the work of a few others on this subject

You , unsurprisingly , wish to believe the prevailing narrative that the attack on Serbia was founded on and evolved around a humanitarian concern for the people of Kosovo . Which is in keeping with the image of our leaderships that has been carefully nurtured in the West.

I'll provide another scenario that I think goes some way to explaining why the same event can and is seen as immoral by others and no doubt is most likely what colours MC view. And this is not some fantastical conspiracy theory , the view has a whole raft of facts , numerous reports by various organisations , to support it.

The humanitarian crisis in Kosovo massively increased as a result of the NATO bombing of Serbia and was an expected outcome that intelligence people had predicted. Prior to the NATO bombing most of the killings in Kosovo were carried out by the KLA. Their MO was to attack Serbian police and Serbian civilians , as well as unsupportive Albanian Kosovans , so as to ramp up the Serbian response enough to help NATO leaders justify their armed forces involvement.

And why would NATO leaders be so keen to get involved with an attack on Serbia ?

Because the former FRY ( yugoslavia ) had been digging its heels in to resist the flood to westernized/western led free market policies in all of the countries of the former eastern bloc. In short Serbia had been a thorn in the side.

So here's the angle on why it is seen as immoral

NATO leaders knew the bombing would cause the very situation they claimed to be working against IE a massive humanitarian disaster and ethnic cleansing. But not because of concern for the people of Kosovo , but for their own agenda against Serbia.

In short conspiring to create a humanitarian disaster in order to attack/undermine Serbia.

If that were true , would you think the whole affair was immoral ?



Look at the words you have had to use to try to convince yourself there is no credence to what I said................." aren't all " confirms that some are , correct ? Would it be easier if we just all stated jihadist groups ?

There's a lot of **** being spouted about the conflict in Syria but what isn't in doubt is that the feudal monarchies of Saudi and Qatar etc along with Western powers ARE arming and assisting jihadists fighting in Syria

Oh, heaven forbid I look into the guy's background.

If you let radical politics interfere with your historical writing, that writing is by nature going to be badly flawed. If, say, a Stalinist wrote a history book, history would be completely unrecognizable due to that person's inherent biases and politics. Most mainstream people mostly rein that in. The radicals don't.

Yeah......no. That theory only works if you don't understand anything about the Balkans.

All those ethnic groups tied together in Yugoslavia have hated each other for centuries. Tito, being the big shot partisan war hero, was able to hold them together until his own death, at which point the various groups started plotting to settle old scores, which finally blew up. The Serbs, who were dominant in Yugoslavia and made up a large chunk of the JNA, were intermixed with Bosnians, Croats, etc. What resulted was all sides attempting to ethnically cleanse their neighborhoods, with the Serbs escalating it into a full on genocide.

Free market politics never entered the equation.

And your "it's all a big plot against Serbia" rhetoric is amusing, considering the number of war crimes they committed.

That's a rather big if. And it fails to take into account the most important factor in Yugoslavia.
 
The Afghan mujahideen who fought the Soviets were not jihadis. The groups in Syria supported by the US are not jihadis either.

When is a jihadist not a jihadist , when Jack says so :roll:

Who bankroles the vast majority of extreme islamist groups Jack ? It's well known, theyre a US ally
 
When is a jihadist not a jihadist , when Jack says so :roll:

Who bankroles the vast majority of extreme islamist groups Jack ? It's well known, theyre a US ally

The extreme groups in Syria are not those we support. Our allies make their own choices in keeping with their own interests as they see them.
 
Oh, heaven forbid I look into the guy's background.

If you let radical politics interfere with your historical writing, that writing is by nature going to be badly flawed. If, say, a Stalinist wrote a history book, history would be completely unrecognizable due to that person's inherent biases and politics. Most mainstream people mostly rein that in. The radicals don't.

Yeah......no. That theory only works if you don't understand anything about the Balkans.

All those ethnic groups tied together in Yugoslavia have hated each other for centuries. Tito, being the big shot partisan war hero, was able to hold them together until his own death, at which point the various groups started plotting to settle old scores, which finally blew up. The Serbs, who were dominant in Yugoslavia and made up a large chunk of the JNA, were intermixed with Bosnians, Croats, etc. What resulted was all sides attempting to ethnically cleanse their neighborhoods, with the Serbs escalating it into a full on genocide.

Free market politics never entered the equation.

And your "it's all a big plot against Serbia" rhetoric is amusing, considering the number of war crimes they committed.

That's a rather big if. And it fails to take into account the most important factor in Yugoslavia.

Nothing wrong with looking him up ( I would have ) but we have different views on what's radical. History is a series of events that involve facts , how we interpret them is what differs. As the prevailing elite narrative will be the dominant one certain facts that question it will be left out or skirted around/dumbed down.

I wonder how many people know that the bombings were the cause of the major crisis not the response to it. Or how many know that there was no genocide ? Or that the NATO attack was actually illegal etc etc

And as I have said before on many occasions , you being an American , are not in a position to bemoan others over war crimes. The attack on Serbia was a war crime

You should read this article to see a sample of what was left out of the narrative

https://chomsky.info/200005__/

or on the " genocide "

Despite Tales, the War in Kosovo Was Savage, but Wasn't Genocide - WSJ
 
Fairness has nothing to do with it. No reporter anywhere is obliged to shill for or against any system at any time.

I don't recall mentioning anything about being obliged........................... such is the conditioning they do it all by themselves without any need for coercion.

But do it they do
 
I don't recall mentioning anything about being obliged........................... such is the conditioning they do it all by themselves without any need for coercion.

But do it they do

You seek propagandists among a profession that prizes freedom.
 
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