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middleagedgamer

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Conservative jackasses make the argument that "We have no obligation to just allow any Tom, Dick & Jose into our land just because they want to come."

Don't you get it? If your ancestors had done what you want to do, that wouldn't even be your decision to make in the first place!

Tell me: Are you a Native American?

And, furthermore, are you either an immigrant yourself, or a descendant of an immigrant?

It is physically impossible for you to answer the same to both of those questions.

About one tenth of Americans can trace their ancestry back to the Mayflower. Those guys did not have much documentation of their identities or criminal records, did they? And, they DAMN SURE didn't have the kind of documentation that our modern immigration system demands of well-meaning, hard-working, good-natured people.

Furthermore, 99% of all African Americans have no documentation whatsoever, prior to 1865, when the slaves were liberated.

Not only that, but, if it weren't for immigrants, we wouldn't have the economy that gives us the bargaining power to exert our will on an international scale like this. Our economy was built on the backs, the blood, the sweat, the tears of IMMIGRANTS!

Who built the Erie Canal? It was immigrants from Ireland.

Who created the 13 original colonies? It was immigrants who wanted asylumn from one thing or another, whether it be religious freedom, debt relief, or whatever. It was through THOSE immigrants that we created the militia that overthrew the British Army - at the time, the most fearsome fighting force on the planet.

We owe our prosperity to immigration. If it weren't for immigration, we wouldn't even be a country. And, even if we were a country, if it weren't for immigration, we wouldn't have the prosperity that we do, giving us the bargaining power to do this in the first place.

Conservatives, are you happy about this? Just as you conservatives complain that "You're saying not to support the troops, when they're dying to give you the right to say that." A similar approach can be applied to immigration. You have no moral right to spit in the face of immigrants who made this nation so wealthy and independent that you actually have the bargaining power to spit in their faces.

I despite you. I detest everything that you stand for on immigration. Have fun at your next KKK meeting.
 

jamesrage

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Conservative jackasses make the argument that "We have no obligation to just allow any Tom, Dick & Jose into our land just because they want to come."

Don't you get it? If your ancestors had done what you want to do, that wouldn't even be your decision to make in the first place!

Tell me: Are you a Native American?

And, furthermore, are you either an immigrant yourself, or a descendant of an immigrant?
Even the native Americans at one point in time were immigrants. And native Americans are not a single group or a nationality,so even they conquered, pillaged and taken lands from rival tribes. So you do not have a valid point.

I despite you
I think you mean despise.

I detest everything that you stand for on immigration.
I am sure legal immigrants who came here legally and worked their ass off to stay here and be citizens despise people like you lumping them in with trespassers. Most people against illegal immigration have no problem with legal immigration. So why do you insist on acting as though we hate all immigration?

Have fun at your next KKK meeting
Your the one trying to lump illegals with legal immigrants and you have the nerve to call those who oppose illegal immigration racist?
 

middleagedgamer

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Even the native Americans at one point in time were immigrants.
Your point?

And native Americans are not a single group or a nationality,so even they conquered, pillaged and taken lands from rival tribes.
Your point?

So you do not have a valid point.
Still, when the Native Americans came to the US, there was no one here, first, to tell them no.


I think you mean despise.
Your point?

I am sure legal immigrants who came here legally and worked their ass off to stay here and be citizens despise people like you lumping them in with trespassers.
I'm not the one lumping them in with tresspassing.

The conservatives are.

Most people against illegal immigration have no problem with legal immigration.
However, they also have no sympathy for victims of the immigration system.

So why do you insist on acting as though we hate all immigration?
I think the fact that you have so little sympathy for "every Tom, Dick, and Jose who just wnat to come over here" shows that you want to reserve legal immigration for the "elite," which, in turn, is a smack in the face of what made this country great in the first place.

Your the one trying to lump illegals with legal immigrants
I am trying to lump people who deserve to come here if they want to people who deserve to come here if they want.

and you have the nerve to call those who oppose illegal immigration racist?
Yes, I do.

Because you feel no moral incentive to assist those who want to come here to do so. You imply, in your posts, that only those who have work experience in a high-demand area, or some other kind of "elite" class of foreigners should even be allowed to immigrate at all!
 

mike2810

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what the heck is your point? Are you trying to bait someone into calling you something? So despise away. Are you one who believes any country does not have a right to defend its borders and control legal immigration. What do you think of Mexico immigration laws? Should the US be the only country in the world that just lets anyone in by any means?
 

middleagedgamer

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Are you one who believes any country does not have a right to defend its borders and control legal immigration.
I didn't say that a country doesn't have the right to do that.

But, rights can be abused.

What do you think of Mexico immigration laws?
I do not know of any of their details.

Should the US be the only country in the world that just lets anyone in by any means?
Because you feel no moral incentive to assist those who want to come here to do so. You imply, in your posts, that only those who have work experience in a high-demand area, or some other kind of "elite" class of foreigners should even be allowed to immigrate at all!
 

mike2810

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By your stance imo you support open borders. Mexico, Canada other countries do not. Mexico immigration laws are far tougher than the US. I believe a country has a right to manage immigration. The US needs to start enforcing its laws.

Yes it can be said we are all immigrants. If you back far enough in time, even native americans migrated into the land mass we call the US. It is mute point to take the stance because we migrated to form a country that today we should just let anyone cross the borders. I have said in the past, I support legal immigration. I do not support illegal immigration.
 

middleagedgamer

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By your stance imo you support open borders.
No, I support making legal immigration a plausible option.

Mexico immigration laws are far tougher than the US.
Can you give details?

I believe a country has a right to manage immigration.
Asked and answered.

The US needs to start enforcing its laws.
They also need to make obeying the laws a plausible option.

They're not going to charge you a 90% income tax, and you know why? Because, even though it's possible to pay that much, it's not plausible.

Yes it can be said we are all immigrants. If you back far enough in time, even native americans migrated into the land mass we call the US.
Native Americans don't exactly count, as they were here first.

Anyone can come onto a land, no strings attached, if no one owns it yet. When we get the technology to start colonizing Mars, people can come and get free land if they can furnish their own transportation.

It is mute point to take the stance because we migrated to form a country that today we should just let anyone cross the borders.
Actually, no it's not.

By that logic, we no longer hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal, that they are bestowed upon by their creator with certain unalianable rights, that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

The fact that the creed is so old is why we should continue to practice it: It's stood the test of time!

I have said in the past, I support legal immigration.
Then, we should make that a plausible option.

Furthermore, we should expand opportunities. As of right now, if you're not related to a citizen or have a good job skill, you're worthless to the US, even though you have the potential to become the next Bill Gates or the next Albert Einstein, you're worthless to this country right now.

Instead, we should allow anyone who:

Isn't a terrorist,
Has sufficient savings to support him or herself,
Doesn't have any communicatable diseases, and
Is willing to pledge his or her loyalties to the United States

Should be allowed to come and settle!

I do not support illegal immigration.
Then, we should stop erecting barriers that make otherwise good people contemplate the possibility that illegal immigration is the lesser of two evils.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Conservative jackasses make the argument that "We have no obligation to just allow any Tom, Dick & Jose into our land just because they want to come."

Don't you get it? If your ancestors had done what you want to do, that wouldn't even be your decision to make in the first place!

Tell me: Are you a Native American?

And, furthermore, are you either an immigrant yourself, or a descendant of an immigrant?

It is physically impossible for you to answer the same to both of those questions.

About one tenth of Americans can trace their ancestry back to the Mayflower. Those guys did not have much documentation of their identities or criminal records, did they? And, they DAMN SURE didn't have the kind of documentation that our modern immigration system demands of well-meaning, hard-working, good-natured people.

Furthermore, 99% of all African Americans have no documentation whatsoever, prior to 1865, when the slaves were liberated.

Not only that, but, if it weren't for immigrants, we wouldn't have the economy that gives us the bargaining power to exert our will on an international scale like this. Our economy was built on the backs, the blood, the sweat, the tears of IMMIGRANTS!

Who built the Erie Canal? It was immigrants from Ireland.

Who created the 13 original colonies? It was immigrants who wanted asylumn from one thing or another, whether it be religious freedom, debt relief, or whatever. It was through THOSE immigrants that we created the militia that overthrew the British Army - at the time, the most fearsome fighting force on the planet.

We owe our prosperity to immigration. If it weren't for immigration, we wouldn't even be a country. And, even if we were a country, if it weren't for immigration, we wouldn't have the prosperity that we do, giving us the bargaining power to do this in the first place.

Conservatives, are you happy about this? Just as you conservatives complain that "You're saying not to support the troops, when they're dying to give you the right to say that." A similar approach can be applied to immigration. You have no moral right to spit in the face of immigrants who made this nation so wealthy and independent that you actually have the bargaining power to spit in their faces.

I despite you. I detest everything that you stand for on immigration. Have fun at your next KKK meeting.
I know when and why my family immigrated from Ireland and England.
They immigrated LEGALLY in the mid 1800's and have all served as peaceful, law abiding citizens ever since - generation after generation.

So, I guess the rant in your OP doesn't apply to me. . . good, then.
Just because the rules and regulations have become more advanced and modern doesn't mean that they shouldn't be followed. That also doesn't mean that they aren't too stringent in some ways, or ineffective and in need of change.
 

spud_meister

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middle aged gamer, answer me this, which country accepts more immigrants than the rest of the world combined? its certainly not mexico, or canada, or even serbia, no, surprise, surprise, its america, but thats not good enough, is it, you don't care about anyone else, you just want to get your panties in a twist over the mexicans, gives you a chance to cry racist, you just don't care about the reality of the situation, you don't give a flying **** about the people fleeing war torn countries in asia, as long as theres a poor widdle mexican having to wait on the other side of the border, the rest of the world can go jump.
 

DarkWizard12

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My family were legal immigrants. Am I allowed to say illegal immigrants are illegal?
 

middleagedgamer

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I know when and why my family immigrated from Ireland and England.
They immigrated LEGALLY in the mid 1800's and have all served as peaceful, law abiding citizens ever since - generation after generation.

So, I guess the rant in your OP doesn't apply to me. . . good, then.
Just because the rules and regulations have become more advanced and modern doesn't mean that they shouldn't be followed. That also doesn't mean that they aren't too stringent in some ways, or ineffective and in need of change.
No, it applies to you.

Because the immigration process in the mid-1800's was a lot more applicant-friendly, negating the NEED for illegal immigration!
 

Aunt Spiker

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No, it applies to you.

Because the immigration process in the mid-1800's was a lot more applicant-friendly, negating the NEED for illegal immigration!
There is no *need* for illegal immigration - it's not like we're suffering for lack of abled bodied men to do work, you know.
Illegal immigrants are present in the millions - we *need* that many? Spare me. There's no need for people who aren't actual ACTIVE citizens.

What we NEED is immigration reform - absolutely - we don't NEED people to continue to come here in hoardes illegally.

We didn't NEED it in the 1800's and we definitely don't NEED it now.

And I think you fail to imagine life in the 1800's - you think it was easy back then? They still had to pay a fee - what type of employment existed for them, then, to secure that money? What about paperwork? There weren't copiers, fax machines and computers. . . it was the same bureaucratic crap - costly and a pain in the ass just the same.
 
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middleagedgamer

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There is no *need* for illegal immigration
You KNOW what I mean.

it's not like we're suffering for lack of abled bodied men to do work, you know.
So, you want to reserve legal immigration for the "able-bodied?"

And that, my friend, is exactly the PROBLEM with the immigration system that causes so many people to cross the border illegally.

Yes, they have job skills (such as being world-renowned mechanics and hanymen), but how do they PROVE those job skills?

Give them a visa for independent contractors! Damn, it's not rocket science!

Illegal immigrants are present in the millions - we *need* that many? Spare me.
Bill Gates has over $50 billion. Does he *need* that much money?

There's no need for people who aren't actual ACTIVE citizens.
Citizens!

How do people who aren't natural born citizens BECOME citizens?

What we NEED is immigration reform - absolutely -
And, do you define "immigration reform" as simply buffing up our borders with military bullying and intimidation?

we don't NEED people to continue to come here in hoardes illegally.
And yet, people do it all the time.

People in Texas can vouch for the fact that illegal immigrants are not bad people - they are good people trying to work within a bad system. When a large number of otherwise good people routinely violate the law, chances are, it's the law that's the problem, not the people.

We didn't NEED it in the 1800's and we definitely don't NEED it now.
However, we must also address the root cause of why illegal immigration is such a problem in the first place.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Yes - they're not all bad. I agree! They all have the ability to do something to sustain theirselves, yep.
So we need immigration reform like I need a root canal. . . extensive and overhauling of the entire system.

But I still don't support illegal-immigration.
 

spud_meister

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Can you prove that?
As of 2006, the United States accepts more legal immigrants as permanent residents than all other countries in the world combined
thats from wiki: Immigration to the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and the source of that statistic is: Xinhua - English

The Immigration and Naturalization Services Act of 1965 abolished national-origin quotas fixed in the 1920s and opened the nation's shores to new immigrants. Today, the United States accepts more legal immigrants as permanent residents than the rest of the world combined.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Would you sympathize with a person who was sent to jail for tax evasion because they couldn't afford a 90% income tax rate?
Sympathy isn't the same as acceptable or Ok'ing illegal activity.
I sympathize with my Dad every year - eventhough he answers to a boss and they cut his paycheck, being a minister, he's classified as self employed. He has to save up throughout the year to pay $2,000 or $3,000 in taxes.
He does it, though - because it's what he's required to do.

Do I agree with it? Nope
Do I sympathize? Yep
Would I encourage him *not* to do it? Nope.
 

middleagedgamer

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Dude, that newspaper is from f*cking CHINA!

That newspaper is from a country that doesn't even give its citizens the right to free speech! How do you know that information is legitimate, and not Chinese government propoganda?

Also, it merely claims that the US accepts more legal immigrants than any other country combined. Show me statistics (from each of their home countries) of all the other countries in the world, and show me how many migrate tot he US each year, and compare those total numbers. Then, and only then, will I accept any fact you give.
 

middleagedgamer

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Sympathy isn't the same as acceptable or Ok'ing illegal activity.
I sympathize with my Dad every year - eventhough he answers to a boss and they cut his paycheck, being a minister, he's classified as self employed. He has to save up throughout the year to pay $2,000 or $3,000 in taxes.
He does it, though - because it's what he's required to do.

Do I agree with it? Nope
Do I sympathize? Yep
Would I encourage him *not* to do it? Nope.
Is his tax rate 90%?

EDIT: Furthermore, I'd like to see proof that he's actually an independent contractor, and his boss isn't just claiming that he is. Allow me to copy and paste something that a lawyer (who practices employment law) has told me:

However, for many purposes, an agreement between the parties specifying that the arrangement is an independent contractor rather than an employee simply is not effective, though employers and the folks they hire are often under the mistaken impression that it does.
Tell me: Who exercises more control over the details of how your dad performs his work? Is it him, or his boss? Even if the boss allows your dad a good deal of freedom of movement, if the boss has the right, whether through a contract or bargaining power to dictate the terms of how the work is performed and how he is paid, he's probably an employer.

The chances of him being an employee are amplified if he consistently works for the same "customer" all the time, which I am assuming he does (considering he's a minister).

In order to qualify for statutory non-employment for income tax purposes, your dad must be involved in direct sales. Even if he is involved in marketing, he is not involved in direct sales, and his boss is ignorant of the law if he thinks he can get away with that.
 
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spud_meister

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Dude, that newspaper is from f*cking CHINA!

That newspaper is from a country that doesn't even give its citizens the right to free speech! How do you know that information is legitimate, and not Chinese government propoganda?

Also, it merely claims that the US accepts more legal immigrants than any other country combined. Show me statistics (from each of their home countries) of all the other countries in the world, and show me how many migrate tot he US each year, and compare those total numbers. Then, and only then, will I accept any fact you give.
appears i was a bit hasty using that source, but the rest of my post still stands
 

Aunt Spiker

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Is his tax rate 90%?

EDIT: Furthermore, I'd like to see proof that he's actually an independent contractor, and his boss isn't just claiming that he is. Allow me to copy and paste something that a lawyer (who practices employment law) has told me:



Tell me: Who exercises more control over the details of how your dad performs his work? Is it him, or his boss? Even if the boss allows your dad a good deal of freedom of movement, if the boss has the right, whether through a contract or bargaining power to dictate the terms of how the work is performed and how he is paid, he's probably an employer.

The chances of him being an employee are amplified if he consistently works for the same "customer" all the time, which I am assuming he does (considering he's a minister).

In order to qualify for statutory non-employment for income tax purposes, your dad must be involved in direct sales. Even if he is involved in marketing, he is not involved in direct sales, and his boss is ignorant of the law if he thinks he can get away with that.
Normally when I realize I don't grasp something 100% I go, read up, learn all I can, and report back to the debate.
I won't get drug into an income-tax issue in an illegal immigrant thread because I fail to see the relavance and the tax laws are ridiculously complex.

I have no idea what you're getting at - why does one's income tax level and ability to pay it connect to immigration reform or illegal immigration?
 

middleagedgamer

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I have no idea what you're getting at - why does one's income tax level and ability to pay it connect to immigration reform or illegal immigration?
If you will answer the question, you will find out just how it is relevant.

The question is: Would you sympathize with someone who goes to jail for tax evasion because he can't pay a 90% income tax.

Just answer the question. All your confusions about how it is relevant will be answered in due time.
 

Aunt Spiker

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If you will answer the question, you will find out just how it is relevant.

The question is: Would you sympathize with someone who goes to jail for tax evasion because he can't pay a 90% income tax.

Just answer the question. All your confusions about how it is relevant will be answered in due time.
I did answer the question to the best of my ability:
Sympathize? Yes
But does sympathizing with someone mean that I would encourage or support them to *not* pay or *not* try to make some type of deal? No

Sympathy does not equal support or encouragement of said act.

I'm hindered because I don't actually understand our tax codes, laws and regulations. Your point leads me to more questions . . . it's a poor way of getting me to see or understand something about immigration. Such as: who has to ever pay a 90% income tax? What is that, really? 90% of their income being taxed . . . how much is that? $90.00 if you make $100.00?

Have another thought or comparison - toss it at me.
 
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