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Don’t forget how the Soviet Union saved the world from Hitler [W:115]

TheDemSocialist said:
You literally just admited it was.
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I believe Hitler's war aims certainly included an assault on the USSR, but aims are sometimes not realized, and Hitler's attack on the USSR in no way excuses Stalin's complicity with Hitler in launching WW2.
 
I really fail to see the merit of the last exchanges. Stalin was complicit in the invasion of Poland and thus enabled it, participating himself. At the same time giving Hitler room to afterwards attend to those scheduled to putting some life into the war that until then never was.

That Hitler was bent on eventually attacking the SU, as he later did, has nothing to do with this rather simple and quite indisputable fact.
 
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Jack Hays said:
I believe Hitler's war aims certainly included an assault on the USSR, but aims are sometimes not realized, and Hitler's attack on the USSR in no way excuses Stalin's complicity with Hitler in launching WW2.
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Stalin didnt launch WW2 or did Hitler. Japan did in 1937. Hell Japan and the USSR were basically at war in 1938.. But if you think if it started in 39 based off the invasion of Poland, I would also disagree there. What do we call the remilitarization of the Rhineland? Occupation of Czechoslovakia? German direct involvement in the Spanish Civil War? Austria?
 
Jack Hays said:
Stalin sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind. It was justice that a country complicit in triggering the carnage should pay the highest price to end it.
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Move goalposts much?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Stalin didnt launch WW2 or did Hitler. Japan did in 1937. Hell Japan and the USSR were basically at war in 1938.. But if you think if it started in 39 based off the invasion of Poland, I would also disagree there. What do we call the remilitarization of the Rhineland? Occupation of Czechoslovakia? German direct involvement in the Spanish Civil War? Austria?
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You have a point about Japan but Japan could not trigger a world war. Germany could, and did, in September 1939.
 
There is probably a difference between the USSR fighting and losing millions to repel an invader and the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, and other countries who were never invaded by Germany yet still sacrificed lives in fighting. What else was the USSR supposed to do? And what was the USSR doing between Sept 1, 1939 and June 22, 1941?

And according to the Penkovski papers, the USSR was saved due in large measure to the Lend-Lease Act and supplies sent to them.
 
Fallenangel said:



Don’t forget how the Soviet Union saved the world from Hitler - The Washington Post

"In the Western popular imagination -- particularly the American one -- World War II is a conflict we won. It was fought on the beaches of Normandy and Iwo Jima, through the rubble of recaptured French towns and capped by sepia-toned scenes of joy and young love in New York. It was a victory shaped by the steeliness of Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower, the moral fiber of British Prime Minister Winston Churchill, and the awesome power of an atomic bomb.
But that narrative shifts dramatically when you go to Russia, where World War II is called the Great Patriotic War and is remembered in a vastly different light..."



I"ll be watching the Victory Parade today, remembering the millions and millions of soldiers and civilians that perished in that horrible war.


Cheers,
Fallen.
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Eh. Not really.

Without the United States' lend-lease program supplying the USSR with food, fuel, and material to keep the war effort going, the Eastern front could have really gone either way. Ditto for the absolute carnage our non-stop bombing campaigns wreaked on German infrastructure in the Reich's backlines, and our keeping the Japanese busy enough on the Pacific front that they never thought to attack the Soviets from behind.

Likewise, the Brits were instrumental in denying the Germans access to Middle Eastern oil reserves in the Iraq and Iran, as well as in cracking the Enigma code. That alone shortened the war by several years.

The Russians played a key role to be sure. However, they were hardly the "saviors" they like to paint themselves as, particularly when one considers the fact that Hitler was only able to get as far as he did in the first place due to Stalin's tacit consent, and sometimes active aid, to his expansion.
 
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Gathomas88 said:
Eh. Not really.

Without the United States' lend-lease program supplying the USSR with food, fuel, and material to keep the war effort going, the Eastern front could have really gone either way. Ditto for the absolute carnage our non-stop bombing campaigns wreaked on German infrastructure in the Reich's backlines, and our keeping the Japanese busy enough on the Pacific front that they never thought to attack the Soviets from behind.

Likewise, the Brits were instrumental in denying the Germans access to Middle Eastern oil reserves in the Iraq and Iran, as well as in cracking the Enigma code. That alone shortened the war by several years.

The Russians played a key role to be sure. However, they were hardly the "saviors" they like to paint themselves as, particularly when one considers the fact that Hitler was only able to get as far as he did in the first place due to Stalin's tacit consent, and sometimes active aid, to his expansion.
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:shrug:
You're kinda late to the party, as all your points were discussed to death both by me and by other posters in the past 20 pages or so.


Fallen.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Germany threw the vast majority of troops at the Eastern Front rather than the Western front....
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World War 2
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You are either deliberately ignoring facts or are simply uniformed. Of course they threw the majority of their troops at Russia - AFTER JUNE 22, 1941. By that time they had conquered France, Belgium, Poland, Denmark, Holland, Greece, Norway etc. Something they were easily able to do after the non-aggression pact with Russia. The non-Aggression pact was specifically designed to allow the Germans to concentrate their efforts in 1939, 1940, and the first have of 1941. Why do you ignore this - I mean I realize you are a Socialist, but surely you can't be that understanding of Stalin?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Stalin didnt launch WW2 or did Hitler. Japan did in 1937. Hell Japan and the USSR were basically at war in 1938.. But if you think if it started in 39 based off the invasion of Poland, I would also disagree there. What do we call the remilitarization of the Rhineland? Occupation of Czechoslovakia? German direct involvement in the Spanish Civil War? Austria?
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World War II started with the declarations of war by France and Britain against Germany following the German invasion of Poland. That's not such a difficult concept to grasp. And no, Japan and Russia were not at war in 1938. The Soviet Union declared war on Japan shortly before the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. You could look it up - it's in all the history books.
 
Fallenangel said:
:shrug:
You're kinda late to the party, as all your points were discussed to death both by me and by other posters in the past 20 pages or so.


Fallen.
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So, no answers again. How surprising.
 
Wiggen said:
So, no answers again. How surprising.
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Soo... nothing sensible to say, again. How surprising.

I've already addressed the Stalinism/Sovietism stuff here and I've even specifically mentioned lend-lease in several of my posts, etc... now, go be butthurt somewhere else, please.

Fallen.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
That war was declared against Germany but not the Soviets...
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Of course not. The Germans invaded the USSR on 22 June 1941. Japan did not attack Pearl Harbor until 7 December 1941, and Germany declared war on the US shortly thereafter. The US and USSR thereafter had a common enemy. That does nothing to lessen Soviet war guilt.
 
Wiggen said:
You are either deliberately ignoring facts or are simply uniformed.
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Ummmm?

Of course they threw the majority of their troops at Russia - AFTER JUNE 22, 1941.
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Ummm so you say im "ignoring facts" or "uninformed" yet you agree with me?

By that time they had conquered France, Belgium, Poland, Denmark, Holland, Greece, Norway etc. Something they were easily able to do after the non-aggression pact with Russia. The non-Aggression pact was specifically designed to allow the Germans to concentrate their efforts in 1939, 1940, and the first have of 1941. Why do you ignore this
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I didnt ignore any of this....

- I mean I realize you are a Socialist, but surely you can't be that understanding of Stalin?
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What does this even mean?


Wiggen said:
Why are you such a defender of Stalin?
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By saying I believe Germany was going to invade the USSR no matter what, and that the USSR occupying East Poland deliberately or non-deliberately bought the Soviet Union some time means I'm a "defender of Stalin"?

Wiggen said:
World War II started with the declarations of war by France and Britain against Germany following the German invasion of Poland.
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Thats when it started for France and Britain.

That's not such a difficult concept to grasp.
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What do we call the the remilitarization of the Rhineland? Occupation of Czechoslovakia? German direct involvement in the Spanish Civil War? Invasion of Austria?

And no, Japan and Russia were not at war in 1938.
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Read what I typed: "USSR were basically at war in 1938."
Technically they were not because there was no formal decleration of War, but technically the US hasnt been at war since WW2, but the US is not the point.
I mean a conflict that really escalated in 1938, with direct battle that cost thousands and thousands of lives on both sides, seems like a war to me

The Soviet Union declared war on Japan shortly before the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. You could look it up - it's in all the history books.
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oj2k1y.jpg
 
LeoVlaming said:
Yes, even though the Soviet Union was every bit as much an aggressor in 1939 (and 1940) as Germany. But Soviet aggression and conquest of countries was judged to be less of an imminent theat to the rest of the world.
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It could mean that, or it could mean that the allies realized that Hitler was going to invade Soviet Union with or without a pact... Stalin warned the west about Germany, and wanted an alliance with western powers to take on Nazi Germany before the Molotov pact... Stalin even told them that if some sort of agreement is not made between western powers and the soviet union to take on the Nazis he would sign some sort of agreement with them
 
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