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Does the Bible Condone Slavery?

Cordelier said:
Interesting.... thanks for that, Elvira... of course, it does answer my other question - your video only pertains to Hebrew slaves.... Leviticus 25:44-46 consigns foreign slaves to an entirely different, "New World" style type of enslavement, doesn't it?
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It would seem so, except it does say in verse 43..."You must not treat him cruelly, and you must be in fear of your God."...so any mistreatment would not go unnoticed by Him...
 
Cordelier said:
But the context of verse 43 refers to Hebrew slaves.
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Probably so in this particular instance but from what I have read, there were laws against cruelty, especially murder, for both Hebrew and Gentile...
 
Elvira said:
Probably so in this particular instance but from what I have read, there were laws against cruelty, especially murder, for both Hebrew and Gentile...
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So it was a kinder, gentler form of slavery?

I'm not trying to be trite or anything.... but I assume most Christians don't condone slavery anymore because they recognize that it's wrong. Just like they don't stone people to death for adultery anymore. I'm willing to accept that the New Testament was a game-changer for things like that. I just wish more Christians would apply the same standards and would be more tolerant in other areas as well.
 
Cordelier said:
So it was a kinder, gentler form of slavery?

I'm not trying to be trite or anything.... but I assume most Christians don't condone slavery anymore because they recognize that it's wrong. Just like they don't stone people to death for adultery anymore. I'm willing to accept that the New Testament was a game-changer for things like that. I just wish more Christians would apply the same standards and would be more tolerant in other areas as well.
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Yes, I do think slavery in Bible times was more humane, where God's people were concerned anyway because He set the standards for them to follow in that regards...times were very different back then for everyone...bargaining/trading/bartering was just a way of life...everyone slaved for someone or something just to exist...things are not much different today...we slave for money instead of things, that's all...

As for tolerance...hey, you'll get no argument from me on that, either...there are some "Christians" who I wonder just what God it is they're serving...certainly not the same one I do...
 
Elvira said:
Yes, I do think slavery in Bible times was more humane, where God's people were concerned anyway because He set the standards for them to follow in that regards...times were very different back then for everyone...bargaining/trading/bartering was just a way of life...everyone slaved for someone or something just to exist...things are not much different today...we slave for money instead of things, that's all...

As for tolerance...hey, you'll get no argument from me on that, either...there are some "Christians" who I wonder just what God it is they're serving...certainly not the same one I do...
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And if you happen to die without having paid off that credit card, at least your daughter doesn't have to become someone's conjugal slave.... I'd call that progress.
 
Elvira said:
Good question...I'm not sure but you gave me something to look into...I would imagine so but I really don't know...I do know they were taken into slavery by the Gentiles more than once, the worst being in 70 CE...the Romans took them completely off the land, selling thousands into slavery and destroying their genealogical records at that time...
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I think these verses from Leviticus answers that question quite well about non-Israelite people being slaves in the way we generally think of slaves. It also shows that slaves in the Bible were not just 'indentured servants'. Sounds like the fellow in your video might have been doing a bit of cherry-picking.

Leviticus 25: 39-46
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+25&version=NIV

39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
 
Elvira said:
I think it's worth 5 minutes of your time...he explains how slavery back then was the answer for those who had commited crimes or were indebted to another person in some way, since there was not a formal penal system at that time...much different than being kidnapped and forced into slavery, as we think of today...
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Does he mention that it is okay to own humans as your property?

One would think God might have made mention, in one of the 10 commandments, something about owning other people. I guess it was too important to make sure everyone understood the parts about making sure to worship God.
 
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Elvira said:
Yes, I do think slavery in Bible times was more humane, where God's people were concerned anyway because He set the standards for them to follow in that regards...times were very different back then for everyone...bargaining/trading/bartering was just a way of life...everyone slaved for someone or something just to exist...things are not much different today...we slave for money instead of things, that's all...

As for tolerance...hey, you'll get no argument from me on that, either...there are some "Christians" who I wonder just what God it is they're serving...certainly not the same one I do...
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God had no idea slavery was wrong. He couldn't spout of rules about it, not then. He could spout off rules about what not to eat, what not to wear, but not who not to own. He is not a moral God.
 
rjay said:
Does he mention that it is okay to own humans as your property?

One would think God might have made mention, in one of the 10 commandments, something about owning other people. I guess it was too important to make sure everyone understood the parts about making sure to worship God.
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Then there's the part about owning and impregnating slave women like Abraham did Hagar. Or just owning slave women - concubines -for sexual purposes like Solomon and others. That's not a 'kinder and gentler' slavery like being an 'indentured' servant. That's what slave owners in America did with the slave women they owned.
 
Elvira said:
I see this argument come up often here...the fact is, slavery in Bible times was much different than the slavery we are familiar with today, as J Wallace brings out...



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The bible wholeheartedly condemns the slavery of the jews. At the same time, it gives rules on how to treat slaves. Rather than saying that the bible condones slavery, a more nuanced view is to say that there are different kinds of slavery. The egyptians were destroyed by God for their slavery, but other cultures treated their slaves better and were not destroyed. That's a big departure from saying "the bible condones slavery".
 
Cordelier said:
Is that how you understand the terms of the Jewish enslavement in Egypt?
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If you are referring to the Exodus narratives, those are fictional tales.


OM
 
Omega Man said:
If you are referring to the Exodus narratives, those are fictional tales.


OM
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They may be mythical... but I don't think they're entirely fictional. The Exodus is firmly ensconced within the collective history of Judaism.... which is arguably the most resilient cultural heritage in humanity - I find it hard to believe that they "just made it up". Sure, they may have embellished on some of the facts, but there has to be a grain of truth there. Who knows? Maybe they were the Hyksos? There certainly seem to be a lot of parallels between the Egyptian history of the Hyksos and the Judaic Exodus narrative - that's probably not a coincidence.
 
Cordelier said:
They may be mythical... but I don't think they're entirely fictional. The Exodus is firmly ensconced within the collective history of Judaism.... which is arguably the most resilient cultural heritage in humanity - I find it hard to believe that they "just made it up". Sure, they may have embellished on some of the facts, but there has to be a grain of truth there. Who knows? Maybe they were the Hyksos? There certainly seem to be a lot of parallels between the Egyptian history of the Hyksos and the Judaic Exodus narrative - that's probably not a coincidence.
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Hyksos, perhaps; or something along those lines. But the tale of a "mass Exodus" of "millions" (or even "hundreds of thousands") of "slaves" into the Sinai, and then "wandering" for "40 years" in an area the size of Rhode Island - miraculously without leaving so much as any physical evidence - clearly consigns that particular narrative to the status of myth.

Nor is there any historical evidence to indicate a massive and sudden influx of millions of people into Canaan during that period either.


OM
 
Omega Man said:
Hyksos, perhaps; or something along those lines. But the tale of a "mass Exodus" of "millions" (or even "hundreds of thousands") of "slaves" into the Sinai, and then "wandering" for "40 years" in an area the size of Rhode Island - miraculously without leaving so much as any physical evidence - clearly consigns that particular narrative to the status of myth.


OM
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The common ingredient of all myth is the grain of truth.

It's like the New Testament.... Jesus taught His message through parables.... does it really matter that there was no actual "prodigal son"? Or is it the message and the lessons we derive from it what truly matters?
 
Cordelier said:
The common ingredient of all myth is the grain of truth.

It's like the New Testament.... Jesus taught His message through parables.... does it really matter that there was no actual "prodigal son"? Or is it the message and the lessons we derive from it what truly matters?
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"Grain of truth" doesn't make fiction non-fictional.


OM
 
Omega Man said:
"Grain of truth" doesn't make fiction non-fictional.


OM
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Agreed... but all societies are founded on them. Even our own... just look at how many George Washington myths there are - does it make him less important to our nation if he never actually chopped down that cherry tree or threw that Silver Dollar across the Potomac?
 
Cordelier said:
Agreed... but all societies are founded on them. Even our own... just look at how many George Washington myths there are - does it make him less important to our nation if he never actually chopped down that cherry tree or threw that Silver Dollar across the Potomac?
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Moses was fictional; George Washington - not so much.


OM
 
Elvira said:
Good question...I'm not sure but you gave me something to look into...I would imagine so but I really don't know...I do know they were taken into slavery by the Gentiles more than once, the worst being in 70 CE...the Romans took them completely off the land, selling thousands into slavery and destroying their genealogical records at that time...
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Yeah, so ... every time the Jews were slaves, slavery was bad ... every time the Jews owned slaves, slavery was good.

Makes sense if you are determined to twist the bible into what you want it to to say.
 
Right, the bible doesn't condone slavery. Or sexism. Wait ...

So this means, if we live exactly how the bible says, women have to go back to obeying their husbands. Oh no!!!!!
 
Cordelier said:
You know Moses was fictional for a fact, do you?

I'd be interested to know how you came to that conclusion.
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Overwhelming majority scholarly consensus, complete lack of Egyptian records, and comparable myths from other preexisting cultures.


OM
 
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