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Does Isreal Have a Real Nuke Capability or is Vanunu just another deception?

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Does Israel Have a Real Nuke Capability or is Vanunu just another deception?

The following assertions were made by a blogger called Cytation.

http://cytations.blogspot.com/2005/08/does-israel-really-have-nukes.html

I thought it worthy of a thread here.


Israel Created Vanunu, Not Nukes

Vanunu is a Mossad cutout. Israel created Vanunu in order to add versimilitude to their claim of having nuclear weapons. Israel has no nuclear weapons. It is a bluff.

It is true. Israel has never had a viable nuclear weapons program.

The "policy of ambiguity" itself is the first sign, for if they did have nukes they would, like any other country who has them, furnish evidence, thus making their deterrent useful.


Nukes Are Too Close For Comfort

Next, Israel is too small to benefit from nukes. It doesn't have enough landbase to assure that their nukes could not be taken out in one fell swoop along with all their major cities by a first strike against them. Also, Israel's enemies are too close in proxinity to Israel for Israel to consider nuking them. Israel would invariably suffer at least radioactive contamination if they attacked their neighbors. It may be even rendered uninhabitable.


Never a Nuke Test

Another reason Israel has no nukes is: Where and when have they tested them? All countries with nuclear programs have left evidence of multiple tests. Israel has not. Are they really trying to convince the world that they have a huge arsenal which they created without so much as a single test, let alone the hundreds that are the mark of a large and developing program? No ambiguity here.


Too Broke to Afford Nukes

Finally, follow the money. Israel has been on the dole from the beginning. Please tell me how it can afford a secret nuclear weapons program when in reality Israel's entire conventional military and its upkeep is part of a known welfare package? Simply estimate the costs of a nuclear weapons program and then look at the year to year flow of military aid to Israel and what it accounts for. You will find that there is no possiblity that Israel could come up with ambiguous trillions to accomplish this feat. Nor is it possible to believe that Israel would make its own nukes when it simply asks for and gets everything else military as a sort of political ransom to the long suffering Jews with their holocaust bludgeon and their insinuation into the affairs of Christianity.

And why would Israel spend money, money which it doesn't have, on something that would not be useful for it for the reasons as demonstrated above?

Answer: It wouldn't.


Think About it

Israel merely demands that the United States arm it to the teeth with conventional weapons and then that the United States fight Israel's enemies for Israel. Clearly, if Israel wanted to start a nuclear war, it would simply demand the US fight it on their behalf and provide the neccessary bribes and blackmail. Israel does not need its own nukes when it has America's.

The conclusion is that Israel is not a state in any real sense. It is predominantly a haven for international Jewry. It's weakness as a state, as a treaty signatory, as a partner in international law, further shows that it is not willing to invest what is neccessary to have a nuclear weapons program.

Mordechai Vanunu never spent time in prison. He simply lived under an assumed identity for the 18 years following his over dramatized mossad arrest. His ongoing publicity is a continuation of Israel's deception of the world about its non-existant nukes.

The Mossad's motto is "By means of deception, thou shalt do war."


"The Samson Option" Deception--Seymour Hersh Lends a Hand

Because the use of nuclear weapons would be suicidal in the Middle East it has raised doubts that Israel would actually use nuclear weapons – even if they had them. Seymour Hersh's book the Samson Option tries to convince the goy reader that Israel would commit suicide and take the whole world with it if pushed to using nuclear weapons. The book’s main purpose is to reinforce the idea that Israel has nuclear weapons, just as the imprisonment of Vanunu was designed to make us believe.

This bluff has been going on for a very long time – for at least forty years. I believe that the problems of convincing the non-Jewish world that these weapons would really be useful to the Israelis have made their charade suspect and less effectual than they have hoped – even with Hersh’s Samson Option assurances.


The Myth of the Neutron Bomb, and Other Vegetables

I believe that is why the neutron bomb was “invented”. I use the word “invented” in the sense of propaganda, not scientific invention. The neutron bomb was supposed to kill people, but leave real estate intact and uncontaminated. No more need to commit suicide and take the whole world along. The neutron bomb could be used successfully in the Middle East without creating the proverbial glass parking lot. It became the better bluff.

But I find the whole story of the neutron bomb suspect. First of all it was “invented” by one Sam Cohen who claims to have received a peace medal by Pope John Paul II for his invention. It is decidedly strange that the Pope would give a peace medal for a bomb that kills people but leaves the infrastructure intact. If the neutron bomb is the more humane weapon why isn’t it used? If you read Mr. Cohen’s biography I think you may come away with the same sense I got – that this is just another Jewish myth with the underlying purpose of bamboozling the non-Jewish public. The number of Jewish frauds that I have discovered has made me inveterately suspicious of even the most celebrated of Jewish icons – Einstein, Teller, Wiesel, Bettelheim, Freud, Boaz, Daniel Goldhagen, Stephen Spielberg, Jared Diamond, etc. I think Sam Cohen belongs on the list.
 
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superskippy

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We have an estimated 100-200 nuclear weapons, along with our recently bought Submarines from Germany and Trident Missles, that gives us a submarine launching capability as well.

England helped ship heavy water, France helped us build a nuclear reactor, and we stole/bought/were given plutonium from the Americans. We then proceeded to assemble our nuclear weapons, and it is estimated that by the late 1960's our first nuclear weapon was produced.
 
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I do not believe this issue is clear cut at all.

We do know Israel loves to go "by way of deception".

It is difficult to accept that the nuclear rogue character of Israel is anything
more than a sophisticated ruse. I remain open minded.

The Vanunu affair is very shallow and reads more like a "boys own" adventure than a genuine account.

The suggestion he may have been on a long vacation rather than solitary confinement is at least worth contemplation by all who know the tricky tales of Zion.

I do know the "chosen people" theme is a racket.

http://www.christusrex.org/www2/koestler/

I do know the Auschwitz gas chambers are a propaganda lie.

http://judicial-inc.biz/Auschwitz.htm

I do know the "money creation" racket rules the world.

http://www.alor.org/Library/TheUseofMoney.htm#1a

It is easy to see what benefit a perception of nuclear weapon capability
might be to Israel.

It is clear mass deception in our time is common.
 

superskippy

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I do know the "chosen people" theme is a racket.

The chosen people refers to God choosing us to receive his laws and the Torah. Nothing more.

I do know the Auschwitz gas chambers are a propaganda lie.

May god forgive you.

It is clear mass deception in our time is common.

We have nuclear weapons whether you accept it or not, and if you truly beleive that the Gas Chambers were a hoax than your opinion is worth nothing in any matter.

There is no doubt we have nuclear weapons the evidence is overwhelming, what do you really think Dimona is a textile factory?
 
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There is no doubt we have nuclear weapons the evidence is overwhelming, what do you really think Dimona is a textile factory?[/QUOTE]

What evidence could you reference that validates that Israel does have
a nuclear weapon capability?
 

righton

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Those Arab leaders who needed to know the facts about Israeli Nuclear capablities, have know it..................since early 60's.

The reason Israel uses ambiguty stand about its nuclear capabilities is two fold:
1. Deterrant to Arab dictators.
2. Not give these Arab regimes an open and overt reason to acquire nuclear weapons under the pretense of "self defense" against Israel.

Beside, why one can't claim that this blogger himself is not part of some shadwoy organization who's engages in disinformation.
 

superskippy

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What evidence could you reference that validates that Israel does have
a nuclear weapon capability?


Your dead set on this arent you?

Ready? Lets start.

In 1949, HEMED GIMMEL a special unit of the IDF's Science Corps, began a two-year geological survey of the Negev desert with an eye toward the discovery of uranium reserves. Although no significant sources of uranium were found, recoverable amounts were located in phosphate deposits.

The program took another step forward with the creation of the Israel Atomic Energy Commission (IAEC) in 1952. The quote by David Bergham was uttered in the halls of the IAEC building, in reference to the debate over an atom bomb he said "This will endure that we shall never again be led as lambs to the slaughter." HEMED GIMMEL research centers were converted into the Machon-4 Labratories. By 1953, Machon 4 had not only perfected a process for extracting the uranium found in the Negev, but had also developed a new method of producing heavy water, providing Israel with an indigenous capability to produce some of the most important nuclear materials.

We then sought France in assitance in building a Nuclear Plant, France build a 40MWt heavy water reactor and a chemical reprocessing plant, we then entered a deal for an 18MWt research facility :roll: .

In 1957 after the French Premier's famous quote "We owe the bomb to Israel". France helped build a straight up 24 MWt Nuclear Plant, with designs to handle 3 times as much cooling and energy requirments.

France then helped us build Dimona, our center nuclear facality and production site.

Now so far that is 4 Nuclear faclities in 1957, for a country that can only be compared in size to New Jersey. What in gods name do you think we were doing? France just decided to help in our elaborate conspericy to deceive the whole world? They worked at Dimona for God's sake!

In 1960 France pressured us to go public and submit to international regulation, in responce we renogtiated a deal for Uranium and other various materials and we would complete the project.

French contractors and workers stayed at Dimona and in 1964 the reactor went critical.

In 1965 French workers left Israel and we took over, the US figured out what was up, and demanded inspections which we gave them, we managed to deceive them to it's true intentions by closing of whole complexes behind fake walls and the like.

Barbour, US ambassador to Israel from 1961-73, was told when going to Israel not ask about our bomb program, "The President did not send me there to give him problems. He does not want to be told any bad news."

In 1968 military attaches were ordered by the US government away from Dimona spying, and in 1968 France and the CIA concluded that we had developed our first nuclear weapon. When the Americans were alerted that we had began putting nuclear weapons in our previous empty Jericoh Missles. In retrospect it is in fact widely beleived we had at least two nuclear weapons in 1967 on the eve of the 1967 war. In 1973 the Americans were informed that we had assembled 13 twenty-kiloton atomic bombs.

Dimona has been upgraded to an 85MWt facility with several 12-15 MWt extensions.

There is no logical dispute, even our Arch-Enemies the Arabs admit it, and hate it.

To think we carried on a 60+ year scheme to deceive the world involving trillions of dollars and with the knowledge of at first England and France, and then the Americans, is insane.
 
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I have read the official "story" and point out that power generation and nuclear weapons are two separate issues.

The Vanunu story is the lone "validation" of Israel nuke production.

All the rest is speculation and suggestion.

One typical article I read suggested that US inspections found no facilities because Israel had bricked up walls and created fake control rooms.

Now you can believe that this is true or you can suspect that trickery might be involved.

Having studied and documented the "gas chamber" propaganda for over 20 years I do understand a little about the ways of the world.
It is an excellent study to gain some comprehension of the depth of propaganda and the tactics of power.

The academic debate on this issue was finished by Butz and Zundel more
than a decade ago.

Don`t waste your effort on invective and smear chanting in this direction.
You might as well try and convince me of flying saucers or crop circles.

Are you keeping count of the survivor "Holocaust" epics that have been exposed as frauds.

It really is very unlikely that any nuclear capacity would be tolerated outside the international inspection regime.

Israel has never officially claimed it has nuclear weapons.

It encourages the perception that it has nukes.

Propaganda is a very tricky business. Most people never do their own research.
 
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Spare me the holocaust crap. The least thing Isreallis need is sympathy.

The chosen people is complete crap..period.

Isrealis on these forums are out to appel to the common trailor trash redenck bible thumper. They know thats where the support for the money and potlical backing from the US goverment resides.


But they most certinaly do have Nukes cause the Americans and there british puppets were stupid enough to give these insane fools the nukes to begin with.
 
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righton said:
Beside, why one can't claim that this blogger himself is not part of some shadwoy organization who's engages in disinformation.
I always recommend the reader beware.

I haven`t agitated to invade another country.

I don`t propose we throw anyone in jail.

I respect the property rights of others.

I even defend the right to disagree with my view.

I depend on logic and rational thinking, not abuse and intimidation.

Let`s just think our way through!
 

superskippy

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Brooks I have read the official "story" and point out that power generation and nuclear weapons are two separate issues.

The Vanunu story is the lone "validation" of Israel nuke production.

All the rest is speculation and suggestion.

One typical article I read suggested that US inspections found no facilities because Israel had bricked up walls and created fake control rooms.

Now you can believe that this is true or you can suspect that trickery might be involved.

Having studied and documented the "gas chamber" propaganda for over 20 years I do understand a little about the ways of the world.
It is an excellent study to gain some comprehension of the depth of propaganda and the tactics of power.

The academic debate on this issue was finished by Butz and Zundel more
than a decade ago.

Don`t waste your effort on invective and smear chanting in this direction.
You might as well try and convince me of flying saucers or crop circles.

Are you keeping count of the survivor "Holocaust" epics that have been exposed as frauds.

It really is very unlikely that any nuclear capacity would be tolerated outside the international inspection regime.

Israel has never officially claimed it has nuclear weapons.

It encourages the perception that it has nukes.

Propaganda is a very tricky business. Most people never do their own research.


If your that entrenched in this insanity I have nothing further to say.
 
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nefarious_plot said:
But they most certinaly do have Nukes cause the Americans and there british puppets were stupid enough to give these insane fools the nukes to begin with.
It is a common aplogetic approach to suggest that what appears to be a mistake is the result of total incompetence.

I tend towards a more sophisticated analysis.

If it "looks" like lunacy then perhaps there is more to the story.

We all know intimidation, coercion and political ambition are par for the course.

My point here is that if we rule out the "hoax" possibility we exclude a pattern of behaviour that is typical.

A dogmatic rejection of this possibility is hasty.
 

righton

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It really is very unlikely that any nuclear capacity would be tolerated outside the international inspection regime.

Israel has never officially claimed it has nuclear weapons.
So what is your objective. To push Israel to the corner, to "call her bluff" and force the Israelis to show their card. They are smarter then that. The most important isuue, Israel's preceived nuclear capabilities keeps the Fundementalist Muslims at bay.
 
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No objective beyond seeking the truth and freeing myself and others from propaganda.

I wish to defend myself from ideas and strategies that might interfere with my freedom and security.

The Israel nuke issue is in the context of the broader "war on terror" theme that is primarily a sophisticated bogey man to retain control of the public and justify erosion of common law liberties.

It is very difficult to determine what is true and real when the propaganda fog is thick on the ground. I certainly tend to wards a view that the 911 and London Bombing events have dimensions not yet fully exposed.

Staged terror and manufactured nightmares are hardly an original proposition.

These are the natural strategies of power and tyranny.

"Fundamentalist Muslims" are a very critical part of the strategy to control the petroleum reserves of the world.

Always more profitable to keep these millions ignorent and obedient to their high priests than have the Muslim world educated and expecting a just share of natures bounty.
 
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righton

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Christopher Brooks said:
No objective beyond seeking the truth and freeing myself and others from propaganda.
So far so good.
However, You know, state of Israel is surrounded by enemies who wish to destroy her on religious ground. That is not a propaganda. Stolen land scmand is the real smoke screen designed to throw you and other off Arab's real intent.

I wish to defend myself from ideas and strategies that might interfere with my freedom and security.
That sound like a paranoia to me. Is that yet another one of those propaganda bullhorns, disgused as "my freedom" mantra.? Who is interfering with your freedom. Certainly not a tiny democratic country located 15,000 miles from your doorstep.

The Israel nuke issue is in the context of the broader "war on terror" theme that is primarily a sophisticated bogey man to retain control of the public and justify erosion of common law liberties.
Pretty soon somebody (not necessary you) is going to come up with excuse that, Israel nuclear capabiliries (or the luck thereof) is also responsible for Hurrican Katrina. Next.

It is very difficult to determine what is true and real when the propaganda fog is thick on the ground. I certainly tend to wards a view that the 911 and London Bombing events have dimensions not yet fully exposed.
Welcome to real world my good man (or woman).

Staged terror and manufactured nightmares are hardly an original proposition.

These are the natural strategies of power and tyranny.
who, what, where. What are you talking about.?
Are you trying to suggest that Amrican, Israelis, French, Spanish, British, Dutch, Australians, are STAGING THEIR OWN manufacture terorr bombing, and pin it on whom?
Come on, don't you give some credit to the people of these free and democratic countries to find out the truth - real truth, for themselves.?
 
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righton, I am happy to accept you are of different opinion.

My Thirteenth Tribe reference in earlier posts question the whole integrity of the state of Israel.

I would be upset if my home was stolen and bulldozed.
 

righton

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Christopher Brooks said:
righton, I am happy to accept you are of different opinion.

My Thirteenth Tribe reference in earlier posts question the whole integrity of the state of Israel.

I would be upset if my home was stolen and bulldozed.
Justice and fairness have no status of limitations in my book.
If you are taiking about injustice then, I trust you also mean, the atrocities committed against the 50,000 Jews from the Banu Qareedah, Banu Nazir, and Banu Qaneqah tribes who lived in Medinah, Saudi Arabia for almost 600 years. in 635 ACE, 900 of their man were beheaded in one single afternoon by the hand of the Muslims, just because they chose to retain their own religion and haritage. Their women were raped then forced into slavery. An entire flourishing tribe was totally wiped out in a matter of days. Their homes and all properties were stolen by the hand of the Muhammed's followers. Being upset is still put it mildely.

Fundementalist Muslims are last ones to plead for fairness from others. Their history cradles on injustice to others who opposed them, and could not get away with it...... untill now which these fundementalist get their rear kicked hard. Off course they don't like it, and cry that proverbial victim crap to justify their haious crimes against civilians as "self defense" diatribe.

When one declares war upon the other side, then loses. he ends up paying the price. That is an international law.

In 1948 (to which you allude), 6 Arab states had declared a unilateral war against a day old state Israel, with expressed goal of "throwing all the Jews into the sea, thus solve the Jewish problem once for all". That is the word of Arab leaders, not mine. Israeli successfuly, with the help of THEIR allah, had managed to repell the invasion, and push the invading arab back to where they are now.

The same happend during the 6 days war. Arabs initiated hotilities against Israel. Arabs lost. Arabs paid the price.

The conflict between Arab & Israel is NOT about land. It is about state of mind. It is about 1400 years of religious war. Until Fundementalist Muslims learn to live in realities of today, to see where they had brought themselves into, we are not going to have peace and harmoney between the3 main religions in that region. Until these people will not learn to respect other religions which are olders and established then their own religion, I am afraid we will continue to have religious conflicts around the world.
 

JOHNYJ

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Israel has the Bomb.She needs it and will use it.Most believe its a Doomsday system.If it ever looks like Israel is going to be destroyed by the Arabs .She sets off this system and 200 plus Arabs meet allah.When an Israeli Jew says " Never again " they mean it !
 
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Jewish persecution claims are always suspect thanks to the
Auschwitz "gas chamber" fraud.

Israel is completely on the life support system of big money power
and the US tax payer.

Israel is exploited as a political strategy to advance the policy of Monopoly.

The "Jewish" claims to the Palestinian land is based on a fantasy.

This fantasy has been established as real by the manipulation of the "Christian" dogma which has been Zionised over time.


Righton, your proclamation, "When one declares war upon the other side, then loses. he ends up paying the price. That is an international law." , is a very imaginative interpretation of the Balfour Agreement and the political realities that established the artificial state of Israel upon the lands of Palestine.

Of course this hardly deals with the topic which is my speculation that Israel probably does not have a nuke capability.
 

righton

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Of course this hardly deals with the topic which is my speculation that Israel probably does not have a nuke capability
Don't you think that Egypt, Syria have better intelligece services then your "speculations". If your assertion is true, Arab countries would have chllanged Israel and called her bluff a long time ago.

Trust me, knowing the Israelis as much as I do, with their utter dermaination to defend their ancesstoral homes and their people. they don't bluff. They say what they mean, and mean what they say.

If ever the prospect of annahilation comes to the region. They will not be the only ones to go.

Nuclear schmuclear. the best and only way to solve the ME crises is through peaceful means.

Arabs need to swallow their hollow and feudalistc pride. Learn to accept people of other religions and races then their own. Recognize the fact that they are not the only god-given people with exclusive right to be in the ME region.
 

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Keep going you have almost uncovered our vast secret that only you have been able to uncover! :roll:

Searously your really funny, I might have to print this thread out and show my friends, keep going. :rofl :rofl
 
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I have just pulled Trial and Error - Mordechai Vanunu and Israel`s nuclear bomb 1991 - from my library and read it again.

This whole story is riddled with absurdities.

Anglican Pastor David Smith has some interesting letters from Vanunu on his web site that also reveal some dramatic contradictions and puzzles.

Just where the truth lies is obscure and it is possible that Vanunu could be
trapped in a plot that he was initially part of or other explanations may fit the facts but their is every reason to believe that the whole story is a propaganda stunt to provide the ambiguous perception that Israel is a nuclear power. I suspect it has no nuclear weapons at all.

The world is drowning in myth and lies.
 
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