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Does free speech outweigh a violation of the establishment clause... looks like we'll find out soon enough.

Yea, I get the part it was not mandatory. That would have been a no brainer violation.

As for your claim of lame, let me ask, have you ever played on an organized sports team such as football where bonding with your fellow players as "team mates" and bonding to your coach are critically important? Many times more important than the relative skill level of the individual players.
You do everything together as a team: you run together, you lift together, you practice together, you ride together to/from games, and yes- you even shower together- all as a team. And you hang on every word your coach says because he/she is the coach.

Now, post game coach wants to lead a voluntary prayer midfield, which 80 out of 90 of your team mates are all for because they share his religion. Do you want to tell me a 15-18 year old kid on that team would not feel some coercion to participate?

Exactly. There being a pressure, a stigma to not participating, is still a wrong coercion. It's the same issue as saying a teacher can lead a class in prayer but someone can be stigmatized for choosing to not take part. That's wrong just as 'mandatory' is.
 
He does have any religious rights while at work in the company of students. If he was praying in his office or in the teachers lounge this would be different but he is praying in the full view of hi student-athletes, which is not permitted. A public school teacher is not permitted to have visible religious jewelry or have a religious book such as a bible visible on their desk because those are considered coercive. Their job is secular and it is top be kept that way.

Change his religion from likely protestant Christian to Muslin, Hindu, Humanist or Satanist and then how would that play with christian parents? Christian coaches do not have more rights because their share religious beliefs with the students or the voters.

I don’t think that (bolded above) is true.

The First Amendment Center’s A Teacher’s Guide to Religion in the Public Schools provides that “teachers are permitted to wear non-obtrusive jewelry, such as a cross or Star of David. But teachers should not wear clothing with a proselytizing message (e.g. a ‘Jesus Saves’ T-shirt).”


 
Yea, I get the part it was not mandatory. That would have been a no brainer violation.

As for your claim of lame, let me ask, have you ever played on an organized sports team such as football where bonding with your fellow players as "team mates" and bonding to your coach are critically important? Many times more important than the relative skill level of the individual players.
You do everything together as a team: you run together, you lift together, you practice together, you ride together to/from games, and yes- you even shower together- all as a team. And you hang on every word your coach says because he/she is the coach.

Now, post game coach wants to lead a voluntary prayer midfield, which 80 out of 90 of your team mates are all for because they share his religion. Do you want to tell me a 15-18 year old kid on that team would not feel some coercion to participate?

That is precisely what the SCOTUS must decide. IMHO, the school district’s case is weak since they (like you) presented no evidence of any actual coercion - only stating (as you did) that it is possible that some might feel some coercion to attend and/or participate.
 
What prayer or religious rules are you talking about? The OP case is about a school district doing just that. They fired a coach for his free exercise of religion (praying after games) based on the potential for (possible future) coercion, while not offering any evidence whatsoever of actual coercion. The SCOTUS will decide if that violated the 1A rights of the coach.
These cases always depend on numerous nuanced facts and in your argument, you have made several false statements of fact that are critically important:
  1. Claim: The school said he could not participate in any type of prayer. False: when they became aware of him doing this they asked him to stop, which he did briefly. Then they offered him to consider less visible/public ways of doing it. He refused.
  2. Claim: They fired him for his free exercise of religion. False, he was not fired at all. Instead he filed suit against the school district because he didn't like them asking him to make any changes in the way he went about doing this.
In short, you need to get your facts straight before making arguments that some poor coache's free exercise of religion is being unfairly infringed upon because the school won't let him preach the gospel when and where he wants to.
 
Here are the basics of the issue IMO.

There are two main options. One says, "let's have a society with freedom of religion, where there is no official state religion, and the state can't do anything that shows support for some religious views over others, creating punishment for people with the 'wrong' views. Religious rights are things people have that are separate from government."

The other says, "Freedom of religion means my religion can do pretty much anything it wants, and the government can do religious things I agree with, and people with other religions can just deal with it. School prayer I agree with is important to have, and banning it restricts my freedom. I'd be fine with our country being officially the religion I like and I think it should."

That second group are an easy-made political target by politicians willing to pander to them, by opposing the first group and supporting the second. "Those big bad liberals want to hurt you by banning prayer in school, we're on your side to allow it."

The *motives* for the politicians who do that pandering are usually simply pursuit of power. Just like trying to get votes for anything the target voters oppose, like segregation, or school busing, or gas guzzler laws, or any others where some voters are against a principle or policy. There are people who would vote for a politician saying "ban all Muslims from the US", which trump largely said.

It's the same issue that existed when Nazis scapegoated Jews, socialists and others; and when US Republicans targeted gays, transgender people, Muslims, and other groups. Anything that can get votes, to get power, when some voters don't support the 'government has to be neutral, everyone treated equally' type principles. And there are big bucks spent on pursuing those votes to get power.

Sometimes, Democrats feel pressure to go along with the pandering. FDR infamously ordered the Japanese internment camps when that had wide public support. Truman accepted some measures like 'loyalty oaths' Republicans demanded during the red scare. Today, some Democrats are opposing ending the trump policy of banning asylum seekers using Covid as an excuse, recognizing the political risk in the mid-terms.

Any time there is tension between some voters and principles of equality especially, and especially when the opposition is a majority of people, there will be politicians who can try to get political benefit by pandering to the voters who want the inequality in their favor instead of the equality - and it often works.

We try to protect against that with high-minded constitutional rules for equality, and 'independent' courts protected from political pressure to follow that public sentiment and protect the rights, but now Republicans groom judges who will support the views they want and appoint them, who will rule they way they like. That's the possibility we're seeing in this case. They might be insulated on the bench - but not in the selection process when appointed.
 
I haven't read the article...religious issues just don't interest me all that much. But something you said that is non-religious caught my attention...and I have a question: Is a school district a "government"? I know school districts can levy taxes, but does that make them a government?

I'm not trying to be oppositional here. I'm just asking about something I don't know.

btw, I agree with your simple solution.
A school district operates within a government. In my county, it’s county government which the county commissioners and the school board are elected positions within county government. No doubt that a school district is part of government, a government run organization.

The school district where I live can’t levy taxes. But the county can approve the tax and send the school tax proposal to the voters which can either approve or disapprove. Now the military has all sorts of chaplains which the military pays for, builds churches or chapels. But the soldiers are free to attend or not, their decision. The military like school districts are government run, part of government, but not a government to themselves. School districts aren’t a government unto themselves either. They reliant on government, in my case, county government and the Georgia state legislature and governor’s office.

Am I playing a game of semantics here?
 
I don’t think that (bolded above) is true.




Religious jewelry is to be kept small and preferably under a blouse or shirt collar so as to be inconspicuous because a student might see obvious religious jewelry as a way to curry favor or grades with the teacher.
 
What prayer or religious rules are you talking about? The OP case is about a school district doing just that. They fired a coach for his free exercise of religion (praying after games) based on the potential for (possible future) coercion, while not offering any evidence whatsoever of actual coercion. The SCOTUS will decide if that violated the 1A rights of the coach.
And the coach should have been fired. His free exercise of religion dos not mean he gets to impose it on his players
 
From Sandra Day O'Connor:

"Some of the strongest language came from Justice Sandra Day O'Connor's concurrence with the 5-4 majority, in which she said: "Those who would renegotiate the boundaries between church and state must therefore answer a difficult question: Why would we trade a system that has served us so well for one that has served others so poorly?"

"When the government associates one set of religious beliefs with the state and identifies nonadherents as outsiders," Justice O'Connor wrote, "it encroaches upon the individual's decision about whether and how to worship?Allowing government to be a potential mouthpiece for competing religious ideas risks the sort of division that might easily spill over into suppression of rival beliefs."

Justice O'Connor's words echo her opinion in Lynch v. Donnelly, in which she observed that state endorsement of religion "sends a message to non-adherents that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community."
 
After the game (school sponsored event) is over he is no longer ‘on the clock’ simply because he remains on school property.

Using your under the employment of the government and while on public property standard, it would be unconstitutional for (publicly employed) chaplains to pray or lead others in prayer.


Sounds like he's trespassing since at that point, he has no business being on school property. But I forgive him.
 
That makes no sense. First, the teachers are choosing to be part of the prayer circle. Second, who said it was only one religion allowed?
I guess they can pray in the teacher's break room. Has this been a problem?
 
I guess they can pray in the teacher's break room. Has this been a problem?

Or their classroom or around the flagpole or anyone on campus. Apparently Shrink sees it as a problem.
 
That is precisely what the SCOTUS must decide. IMHO, the school district’s case is weak since they (like you) presented no evidence of any actual coercion - only stating (as you did) that it is possible that some might feel some coercion to attend and/or participate.
If you want to argue con law with someone who actually knows what they are talking about, try not to be so smug.

Do you know many actual laws are considered by the court and struck down or affirmed before there is any actual evidence of violation of a constitutional provision since the actual law has not gone into actual effect? You might actually be surprised. A lot.

But here's the part of your argument that totally fails: the school board did not file suit against him; he sued them claiming he was the one whose constitutional rights were infringed upon. So by him jumping the gun, he is the one with the burden of proof that his rights were infringed and that not only had his conduct not infringed on others, but that there never could be. Good luck with that one. If he wanted to be another christian martyr before the supreme court, he should have kept pushing the envelope and wait to be fired. Then sue.

You are at least of for 10 thus far. I'd suggest you quit while you are behind.
 
He does have any religious rights while at work in the company of students. If he was praying in his office or in the teachers lounge this would be different but he is praying in the full view of hi student-athletes, which is not permitted. A public school teacher is not permitted to have visible religious jewelry or have a religious book such as a bible visible on their desk because those are considered coercive. Their job is secular and it is top be kept that way.

Change his religion from likely protestant Christian to Muslin, Hindu, Humanist or Satanist and then how would that play with christian parents? Christian coaches do not have more rights because their share religious beliefs with the students or the voters.

I believe employers must accommodate within reason, an employee to practice his religion.

Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits workplace discrimination based on religion, according to the U.S Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. This includes “refusing to accommodate an employee's sincerely held religious beliefs or practices,”
 
Or their classroom or around the flagpole or anyone on campus. Apparently Shrink sees it as a problem.
Why do people need an audience to pray? I think it is very inappropriate for teachers to pray in their classrooms in front of students. Would it be ok if a Muslim pulled out her prayer rug in class 5 times a day?
 
Why do people need an audience to pray? I think it is very inappropriate for teachers to pray in their classrooms in front of students. Would it be ok if a Muslim pulled out her prayer rug in class 5 times a day?
Because even though they won't admit it, they want to proselytize and spread the word of god. Can't do that without an audience.
 
Why do people need an audience to pray? I think it is very inappropriate for teachers to pray in their classrooms in front of students. Would it be ok if a Muslim pulled out her prayer rug in class 5 times a day?

I didn't say in front of students or with an audience.
 
@reflechissez are you unaware that sometimes students aren't in the classroom or on the football field?
 
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