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Does anyone else feel it's too easy to recieve an A in highschool?

That still concentrates on mediocrity. Why do we have to have an undereducated proletariat? Because that's who I suppose you consider that ridiculously diverse group of professions that could require any breadth of expertise and knowledge.

For example:

It may certainly befit a real estate agent to be educated in interior decorating, architecture, construction, business negotiation, operations management, economic theory, U.S. economy, et. al.

This would necessitate at least upper level mathematics.

This is besides the point that the most expensive and ubiquitously and eternally valuable resource is land, and the richest people in the world are so because of their acquisition and sale of it.

Every one of those careers you listed are needed by everyone at one time or another in this society, so it would be in this society's best interest to have them master their craft as much as possible. There is no way you can possible argue that it would be better to remain mediocre. Children end up mediocre thinkers because they're never really expected to think. It's absurd.

There are a great number of members that are daily active on this website, come from all over the country, and most of you speak intelligently, and as if you've been educated. Are you going to tell me that we couldn't have been more with better education? That we couldn't have more of us with people who are better engaged?

you must have a different opinion as to what costitutes upper level math. I know lots of professionals who don't use it, haven't since college, and these are engineers.
but suppose the kind of education you speak of was actually available (I submit that it already is), MOST students will not take advantage of it. They don't need it, and they know it.
I have been several different kinds of technician in the electronics and nuclear fields, worked with many engineers in those fields. Math beyond first year algebra is seldom used in real world applications by engineers or techs.
 
you must have a different opinion as to what costitutes upper level math. I know lots of professionals who don't use it, haven't since college, and these are engineers.
but suppose the kind of education you speak of was actually available (I submit that it already is), MOST students will not take advantage of it. They don't need it, and they know it.
I have been several different kinds of technician in the electronics and nuclear fields, worked with many engineers in those fields. Math beyond first year algebra is seldom used in real world applications by engineers or techs.

My dad spent most of the past 25 years working as an aerospace engineer. I just asked him when the last time he actually used "upper level math." He said it was some time in the 80's.
 
Nobody is saying that increased education is not a good thing in general, the point is that:

a) There are rapidly diminishing returns, and
b) Many, many people do have neither the capability nor desire to avail themselves of significant additional education.

Right, these are societal problems that need to be approached in conjunction.
 
Right, these are societal problems that need to be approached in conjunction.

How are you going to change the fact that the average IQ is 100 and that huge swaths of the population doesn't have the desire or ability to succeed in advanced education? That's what I mean when I say diminishing returns. You can give a hillbilly a private tutor from birth to age 18 and odds are he's still going to be working on the farm when (if) he graduates high school.
 
Right, these are societal problems that need to be approached in conjunction.

how is it a societal problem? if people are happy and productive (not dependent on govt handouts) with the education they have, and don't want more, it is probably best to leave them alone. it is hard enough getting the majority of kids thru the school curriculum we have, much less making them learn the fine arts...
Certainly, tho, the curriculum could be modernized to better fit today's needs..
 
Damn, I would've loved that grading scale. I hated all those bastards that were on a 10 point scale. Ours was:

100-95: A
94-88: B
87-80: C
79-70: D
69 - 0: F

I finished High School with a 2.9 GPA I believe. What was obnoxious however is if I was on the same grading scale as some other people I knew once I got to college, my GPA would've been closer to likely a 3.3-3.5 GPA.

Which is really amazingly fun for colleges, cause in general I don't think they really look at your schools particular grading scale as much as they look at your GPA coming out of there.
 
Speaking of teachers as a group, not as individuals, they are one of the dimmest groups that attend college. Further, they are taught by some of the dimmest professors on campus. Again, this says nothing about individual professors or students, who could be drawn to the field of education and be intellectual superstars, but the mean scores for these groups on the SAT and the GRE and how their work is received by outsiders, makes the proposition that you were smarter than some of your teachers completely believable.


I have proven this ridiculous assertion false a number of times...
 
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I hae proven this ridiculous assertion false a number of times...
Run along with your opinion please...

Then you should have no trouble in proving it false now. Show me up.
 
Then you should have no trouble in proving it false now. Show me up.

I edited that more hostile section of my post out, realizing that it was rude.
Sorry about that...

I will, in time, when I have access to my other cpu that has that info on it, don't feel like looking it all up again. Rest assured, I will eat my words if I am incorrect. :2razz:
 
First the GRE scores and then the SAT scores.

The Educational Testing Service published this report on GRE scores by intended area of study. The mean GRE score for Education majors was 981. This beat the scores of the following majors: Social Work = 892, Home Economics = 922, and Public Administration =962. With respect to the specialties with the Education faculty, the highest mean score was that of Secondary Education = 1060, and the lowest was for Early Education = 920.

As for the SAT I did read their statistical abstract but their search engine really sucks and I couldn't find it again without spending a lot of time looking through poorly parsed search results. So, I turned to web and found someone else who analyzed the results for the SAT, but from 2003:
We decided to have some fun with the 2003 report (pdf), looking specifically at the average scores for groups of students headed towards different college majors.

As you may well know, the SAT test is divided into two halves: Math and Verbal, with the scores reported separately for each. For some unfair comparisions, it is interesting to see how math and science fields do on the Verbal, and how language and humanities fields do on the Math.

The Math SAT: As would be expected, Mathematics majors scored highest of all the majors on the Math portion, with a 626 point average. They soundly trounced the Language and Literature majors, who were 76 points behind. But here's the kicker: Language and Literature scored 67 points higher in Math than Education majors!

Not to put too fine a point on it, but well over half of future teachers will end up either teaching math or a math-heavy field such as science. Meanwhile future linguists, authors, and literature critics might not ever see another equation in their life.

And yet with Euclidian aplomb they fairly kicked Education majors' butts (by 1.75 standard deviations, no less).

Ok, we hear your protests. Not every teacher will teach math, granted. So let's look at the Verbal scores.

The Verbal SAT: Here, Language and Literature majors got their reciprocity, outperforming all other majors with a score of 603. Mathematics majors were forced to lick their wounds 58 points back. But (and you knew this was coming) the Math majors came off as quite cultured in comparison to our soon-to-be public school teachers, beating Education majors by 63 Verbal points!

This is embarrassing.

It could be worse: In a comparison of 21 college categories (we're eliminating the non-college categories of "Home Economics" and "Technical and Vocational") Education majors come in third-to-last place on the Math portion. Only "Agriculture or Natural Resources" and "Public Affairs and Services" majors scored worse.

In the Verbal portion--which should be a teacher's strong point, or so we thought--Education majors took the silver medal in the race for last place. "Public Affairs and Services" again occupied the basement.

All we can say is, Thank God for government majors.

Now isn't it about time we dismantle "Schools of Education" nationwide, and actually permit college students who major in something else (anything else but government) to become teachers? Please?

It's very important to always keep in mind that these are group averages and that individual students, teachers and professors could have had the highest of scores but we should also recognize that most folks don't fit into that category otherwise the means scores, and even the SD would reflect that.
 
Education needs to focus more on practicality. The K-8 curriculum should establish competency in the basics of math and reading whereas high school should be geared towards specialization and job skills. Some kids who have no clue how to get past square one in trigonometry can repair a transmission in their sleep if they're given the proper instruction, whereas some kids who couldn't get past page one in Shakespeare to save their lives could do my calculus homework in twenty minutes. K-8 can identify a student's strengths and the high school curriculum can focus on these strengths and sharpen them while finding ways to apply them in the real world. Specialization.

Not everyone needs to know how to find the maximum or minimum value of a parabola and not everyone needs to know why Macbeth cannot wash his hands clean.
 
First the GRE scores and then the SAT scores.

The Educational Testing Service published this report on GRE scores by intended area of study. The mean GRE score for Education majors was 981. This beat the scores of the following majors: Social Work = 892, Home Economics = 922, and Public Administration =962. With respect to the specialties with the Education faculty, the highest mean score was that of Secondary Education = 1060, and the lowest was for Early Education = 920.

As for the SAT I did read their statistical abstract but their search engine really sucks and I couldn't find it again without spending a lot of time looking through poorly parsed search results. So, I turned to web and found someone else who analyzed the results for the SAT, but from 2003:

It's very important to always keep in mind that these are group averages and that individual students, teachers and professors could have had the highest of scores but we should also recognize that most folks don't fit into that category otherwise the means scores, and even the SD would reflect that.

If they wanted to do this study right they would have looked at people with teaching credentials rather than those who major in education. Many teachers, especially high school teachers, major in a specific subject and acquire teaching credentials rather than majoring in education.
 
If they wanted to do this study right they would have looked at people with teaching credentials rather than those who major in education. Many teachers, especially high school teachers, major in a specific subject and acquire teaching credentials rather than majoring in education.

Exactly. None of my friends who are teachers majored in "education," they all got degrees in their field and then got their masters in whatever it is they did. I would suspect that part of the reason for that skewed number is the fact that at most lower level colleges, there are large "education" departments, while at better schools most students avoid that.
 
Education needs to focus more on practicality. The K-8 curriculum should establish competency in the basics of math and reading whereas high school should be geared towards specialization and job skills. Some kids who have no clue how to get past square one in trigonometry can repair a transmission in their sleep if they're given the proper instruction, whereas some kids who couldn't get past page one in Shakespeare to save their lives could do my calculus homework in twenty minutes. K-8 can identify a student's strengths and the high school curriculum can focus on these strengths and sharpen them while finding ways to apply them in the real world. Specialization.

Not everyone needs to know how to find the maximum or minimum value of a parabola and not everyone needs to know why Macbeth cannot wash his hands clean.

One of the best things they had at my high school was the BOCES program. Starting in 9th grade, kids who were in the program would spend their mornings taking basic classes and their afternoons at a central site learning technical skills.
 
Exactly. None of my friends who are teachers majored in "education," they all got degrees in their field and then got their masters in whatever it is they did. I would suspect that part of the reason for that skewed number is the fact that at most lower level colleges, there are large "education" departments, while at better schools most students avoid that.

The advantage here is that the person can work both professions. I know several former math or science teachers who went into technical fields, and several engineers who retired from their jobs and took up teaching.
The idea works better for the higher grades, not so well if you major in elementary education.
My son is a science teacher, the wife was a K-8 teacher. His education is more easily transferrable to a non teaching job.
 
One of the best things they had at my high school was the BOCES program. Starting in 9th grade, kids who were in the program would spend their mornings taking basic classes and their afternoons at a central site learning technical skills.
why isnt your name red anymore?
 
If they wanted to do this study right they would have looked at people with teaching credentials rather than those who major in education. Many teachers, especially high school teachers, major in a specific subject and acquire teaching credentials rather than majoring in education.

Little difference:
More than half a million Florida students sat in classrooms last year in front of teachers who failed the state's basic skills tests for teachers.

Many of those students got teachers who struggled to solve high school math problems or whose English skills were so poor, they flunked reading tests designed to measure the very same skills students must master before they can graduate.

These aren't isolated instances of a few teachers whose test-taking skills don't match their expertise and training. A Herald-Tribune investigation has found that fully a third of teachers, teachers' aides and substitutes failed their certification tests at least once. . . . .

Many of those students got teachers who struggled to solve high school math problems or whose English skills were so poor, they flunked reading tests designed to measure the very same skills students must master before they can graduate.

These aren't isolated instances of a few teachers whose test-taking skills don't match their expertise and training. A Herald-Tribune investigation has found that fully a third of teachers, teachers' aides and substitutes failed their certification tests at least once.

More here:
At the largest schools, including the University of Florida, Florida State University and the University of South Florida, about one in four school of education graduates failed the test at least once.

Here are some sample test questions from the California Teacher Certification Exam.

What value does the 2 represent in the number 2.1 × 10–3?
A. 2/10,000

B. 2/1000

C. 2/100

D. 2/10

In a town with a population of 4800 people, 8% of the population is
evenly distributed in grades 1–6. Approximately how many students
are in grade 4?
A. 55
B. 64
C. 77
D. 96

More here:
The desperately low standard of new teachers entering the classroom has been laid bare.

Thousands are repeatedly failing breathtakingly easy literacy and numeracy tests, putting children's education at risk.

One in five about to embark on teaching careers still have problems spelling and using punctuation as well as doing the most simple multiplication, division and percentages.

Critics insisted that such a poor grasp of the three R's by graduates and postgraduates is 'extremely worrying'.

And they warned that this failure to get to grips with the tests could have a devastating long-term effect on youngsters' learning.

The tests were brought in to drive up standards but trainees can repeatedly retake them and still qualify despite their appalling poor track record - with some resitting up to 27 times.
 
K-8 can identify a student's strengths and the high school curriculum can focus on these strengths and sharpen them while finding ways to apply them in the real world. Specialization.

You being a self-proclaimed libertarian, I would have thought you'd be at odds with what amounts to government, picking the strengths and weaknesses of our children and molding them into what amounts to worker bees. Seems like a contradiction in philosophy.

I believe we're quite fortunate in the U.S. to have an education system that relies on teaching a broad academic foundation that serves to support all potential life choices a former student may make, independent of their strengths and weaknesses, and far removed from corporate life.

Hyper-specialized workers lead to extinction in the same way hyper specialized organisms do in a changing environment.

I'd prefer to see more emphasis on stricter parenting laws and early education, and parental education (for those who missed out for whatever reason). I think those have a much greater role to play than tweaking high school courses. I do think more specialized "practical" experience in an academic setting should be part of our school system. And I think it is, just in select schools...
As routine, I'd prefer to see that in a college, not in high school however.
 
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First the GRE scores and then the SAT scores.

The Educational Testing Service published this report on GRE scores by intended area of study. The mean GRE score for Education majors was 981. This beat the scores of the following majors: Social Work = 892, Home Economics = 922, and Public Administration =962. With respect to the specialties with the Education faculty, the highest mean score was that of Secondary Education = 1060, and the lowest was for Early Education = 920.

As for the SAT I did read their statistical abstract but their search engine really sucks and I couldn't find it again without spending a lot of time looking through poorly parsed search results. So, I turned to web and found someone else who analyzed the results for the SAT, but from 2003:

It's very important to always keep in mind that these are group averages and that individual students, teachers and professors could have had the highest of scores but we should also recognize that most folks don't fit into that category otherwise the means scores, and even the SD would reflect that.

I should note, that my experience deals with secondary education...
I agree that primary educators are not as educated/qualified,
and IMO, that brings down the stats against all educators...

Though, they do have their own talents that cannot be measured by a mere test...
They have talent in dealing with young children...
There is a psychological strength that they have,
and a good pre-school teacher is something to behold.

That said:

The average SAT verbal scores of prospective teachers passing the Praxis tests to teach English, science, social studies, math and art from 2002 to 2005 were higher than those of prospective teachers in the mid-1990s — and were also higher than the average SAT scores for all college graduates, the report said

The college grades of prospective teachers has also improved. About 40 percent of the prospective teachers taking the licensing tests from 2002 to 2005 had a grade point average of 3.5 or higher on the traditional 4-point scale during college, up from 26 percent in the 1990s, the report said.

The percentage of candidates earning lower than a 3.0 G.P.A. decreased to 20 percent from 32 percent

“By this measure, we are witnessing a dramatic improvement in the quality of the teacher pool,” the report said.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/12/education/12teachers.html?_r=2&ref=education&oref=slogin



•Federal Title II reporting rules, which in 1998 required states and teachers' colleges to report Praxis pass rates.

• No Child Left Behind, which in 2002 forced states to expand teacher licensing testing, just as they were setting higher standards, such as minimum GPA requirements, for teacher education candidates.


ETS: Educational Testing Service ? Home

Teacher qualifications improve in the past decade - USATODAY.com


There was no problem at all in finding out that teachers, as a group, are far from dim. :lol:
40% have a 3.5 or higher...

Other things to consider:

The Art of Teaching. Teaching is more than simple knowledge in a field. It is balancing kids, emotions and such, along with classroom managment skills and curiculum and much much more. I know some "experts" in their fields, true experts, that have admitted that they could never do what I do. They simply don't have the skills to deal with the stress and the skills it takes to run a class and most importantly, the students in it.

How is the responsibility of a teacher to make unmotivated kids learn. I try daily, and many of these kids don't get motivated because they don't understand what a FREE EDUCATION can do for them. They are MTV / Cell phone / PS2 / IPOD spoiled brats! in many cases.

Every now and then though, you have breakthroughs... just the other day even. I had a kid tell me how school did nothing for him. He was kinda giving me that attitude and he had a few friends hanging about thinking he was being funny. I asked him what he wanted to do when he got older, he said own his own mechanic/race shop. I asked him how he thought that studying Immigration for a project with a small group for a research project might help... he said not at all. I asked him what he and his group were doing to complete the project. They started chiming in about who was doing what and how they were doing it, stuff that they did not get prior to me teaching them how to delgate tasks and work as a team and all that. They started seeing that school is not about the stupid knowledge that you are taught, it is about the lessons learned in how you approach these tasks and how they learn to think.

The kids started asking some questions, and I started talking to them about owning their the business that my wife and I have and how they might own their own businesses and the economics course that I teach. They got excited. Who knows? There was more to it than just this, but this is a glimpse of what some of our teacher haters just don't get.
 
Exactly. None of my friends who are teachers majored in "education," they all got degrees in their field and then got their masters in whatever it is they did. I would suspect that part of the reason for that skewed number is the fact that at most lower level colleges, there are large "education" departments, while at better schools most students avoid that.


Yep.
I have a B.A. with a major in History and minors geography and psychology and I have a Masters in Ed.
I teach History, Geography, Economics/Business Studies....

But I also passed teh Science Credential, and taught Science at a school that was understaffed...
I taught Earth and Planetary Science as well as Life Science,
But I would not teach Biology or Chemistry, since I am weak in those areas...
 
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You don't go to the next lessons until you learn everything taught.

No grading system. Only 100% is acceptable.

Or was something being taught unimportant?
 
I know what your going to say, "you probably just went to a bad high school". If you say that based on SAT scores you would be wrong. I just think the grading system should change from 90+=A 80-89=B 70-79=C etc. to:
98-100 A+
95-97 A
93-94 A-
90-92 B+
87-89 B
85-86 B-
82-84 C+
79-81 C
77-78 C-
75-77 D+
72-74 D
71-70 D-
69 and under is failing

I think that we hold our youth to low standards in high school. I also believe it is unfar that someone who gets an 89.4 and a 79.5 recieve the same ground (most teachers round) and thats why I think grading should be more detailed.

It depends on the teacher.

Sometimes it's not so difficult to get a 15 or 16, but sometimes you're happy to get 10/20!
 
You don't go to the next lessons until you learn everything taught.

No grading system. Only 100% is acceptable.

Or was something being taught unimportant?

kids are not robots

The aim of education is not to memorize hundreds of dates and formulas. There are books and computers for doing that.
 
kids are not robots

The aim of education is not to memorize hundreds of dates and formulas. There are books and computers for doing that.

Well then those things wouldn't be on a test if they weren't important to learn.
 
Well then those things wouldn't be on a test if they weren't important to learn.

most of the things we learn at school are totally useless.

what's the point of learning chemistry or maths if you want to be a lawyer?

That being said, I agree that we should learn basics of many matters, like maths, geography or philosophy. Not in order to know many things by heart, but for the sake of opening your mind.

The most important and interesting things in your life are the ones you'll learn by yourself, for your pleasure. If you like history then read history books. But if you don't like that and are not going to be an historian, then it's OK too.
 
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