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Does a Trump win save democracy?

You. said:
Between voice to translate, my fat, thumbs and the fact that this is an Internet form which automatically puts it into the column of things that I can’t take to seriously, I probably won’t be proofreading and having an editor review my posts 😂. I’m extremely likely to continue to have typographical and grammatical errors. Apologies in advance.


I would love you to explain more the propaganda angle.

Yes! I still feel like it’s something you have to have faith in in order for it to work and it can’t help our country that a huge portion of people don’t have faith in it. It’ll be decades before the deniers all dead and gone so I think it’s an important issue
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It would be "explain the propaganda angle more," not "explain more the propaganda angle." Either way, I don't speak a second language, so it's a bit hypocritical for me to throw stones. I just get annoyed by the whole "concerned American" angle when I'm not sure that's the case.

As for the point, however, I don't see how supporting someone who tried to overthrow democracy via a self coup could help democracy. I think that it would do the opposite.
 
Helix said:
It would be "explain the propaganda angle more," not "explain more the propaganda angle." Either way, I don't speak a second language, so it's a bit hypocritical for me to throw stones. I just get annoyed by the whole "concerned American" angle when I'm not sure that's the case.
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I’m just a dumb ‘Mercian that ain’t that good at English 😂 and that’s my only language

Im guessing there are a bunch foreign trolls and AI bots here? Im just a regular American troll 😂
Helix said:
As for the point, however, I don't see how supporting someone who tried to overthrow democracy via a self coup could help democracy. I think that it would do the opposite.
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I think you’re mistaking my hypothetical for support of trump.

This is meant to be more of a thought experiment. Is that not the kind of stuff that happens on this forum? Still learning the ropes.
 
Captain Adverse said:
I agree. With one caveat, we are not a Democracy. At practically every level, whether it be National, State, or Local (with a few exceptions in that last category) we are factually a Republic. Meaning we are typically governed by a class of officials that in our case are a mix of elected, and in many cases (when dealing with the appointees/employees of the Administrative State) by non-elected officials.
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As described by James Madison, I believe, our Republic is a Representative Democracy.

In the next place, as each representative will be chosen by a greater number of citizens in the large than in the small republic, it will be more difficult for unworthy candidates to practice with success the vicious arts by which elections are too often carried; and the suffrages of the people being more free, will be more likely to centre in men who possess the most attractive merit and the most diffusive and established characters. -- Federalist #10

That seems to fill in the empty space left by simply proclaiming our system a republic without attribution as to how it comes into existence and exercises its duties and responsibilities.
 
You. said:
I’m just a dumb ‘Mercian that ain’t that good at English 😂 and that’s my only language

Im guessing there are a bunch foreign trolls and AI bots here? Im just a regular American troll 😂

I think you’re mistaking my hypothetical for support of trump.

This is meant to be more of a thought experiment. Is that not the kind of stuff that happens on this forum? Still learning the ropes.
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Yep, it is. I'm explaining why I disagree with that proposal. I think that he's horrible for democracy.
 
You. said:
I think that an erosion of faith in voting is a bigger threat to democracy than any one term by any one person.

First premise: Voting IS a faith-based endeavor. Voters have to have faith that the system is fair. By this I mean that the vast majority of voters have zero proof that their vote was recorded as they intended it to be cast. It’s basically a black box system for most people. Push button and have faith in the system after that.

Second premise: Election deniers belief that the system is rigged will only be exacerbated by a Biden win. Democrats would be unhappy but will likely accept the results.

I’m sure some deniers would claim a Trump win was 5-D chess by the cabal to trick conservatives the system isn’t rigged, but wouldn’t some have to begin to believe in the system again?
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Trump already won before and they still think the thing is rigged (unless their guy wins). MAGAts don't think rationally. They won't start thinking rationally if their Dear Leader wins again.
 
Captain Adverse said:
I agree. With one caveat, we are not a Democracy. At practically every level, whether it be National, State, or Local (with a few exceptions in that last category) we are factually a Republic.
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"That isn't a cat, it's a lion!"

Enough with the middle school-level intellectualism, CA.
 
No matter who wins, America is going to continue it's descent.
Biden and Trump are both divisive. They do nothing to even attempt to draw the country back together.
They do a lot to keep the divisions intact.
Trump will do less harm overall, as Biden insist on bringing in a whole new society of dependents to increase seats in the house.
Both will continue the money printing and spending to prop up the elites.

In the end... neither one is good. Both are exceptionally bad choices.
 
You. said:
The point I think is interesting to think about is that the election of the worst person might help restore faith in the system.
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He was already elected, though.
 
iamwhatiseem said:
No matter who wins, America is going to continue it's descent.
Biden and Trump are both divisive. They do nothing to even attempt to draw the country back together.
They do a lot to keep the divisions intact.
Trump will do less harm overall, as Biden insist on bringing in a whole new society of dependents to increase seats in the house.
Both will continue the money printing and spending to prop up the elites.

In the end... neither one is good. Both are exceptionally bad choices.
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We don't want to be united with the MAGA crowd.

When we say bring the country together, it doesn't include MAGA.
 
Quag said:
Nope
Like their God/emperor they will claim any election lost as rigged but accept any they win as legitimate.
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well according to trump the last two Presidential elections were rigged.
He claimed the 2016 election was rigged WAY before it was even held.
and I am still asking aren't things usually " RIGGED " in the favor of the winner?
so if the 2016 election was rigged as Trump said it was and he won then who rigged it, how did they rig it, when was it rigged , and how did Trump know it was rigged so early? WAY before it was even held.
Unless he was the one who rigged it.
If we take Trump at his word then there should have been an investigation into the 2016 election a long time ago.
I think these questions should be asked and Trump should have to answer them under oath.
This alone IMO was one of the reasons the MAGAS don't believe things are above the board and things were rigged .
Trump said so.
Trump needs to answer some questions.
Have a nice day
 
Helix said:
It would be "explain the propaganda angle more," not "explain more the propaganda angle." Either way, I don't speak a second language, so it's a bit hypocritical for me to throw stones. I just get annoyed by the whole "concerned American" angle when I'm not sure that's the case.

As for the point, however, I don't see how supporting someone who tried to overthrow democracy via a self coup could help democracy. I think that it would do the opposite.
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and one of the other things people are afraid of is Trump has already said he will be seeking revenge on not only the MSM but other people mainly his political opponents.
and that is what a dictator does.
and yes we all know Trump lies and lies and lies but even liars tell the truth once in awhile.
Have a nice day
 
if Biden magically gets another 15 million mail in ballots it will further erode people's faith in the system

Trump is hugely popular, way more so than Biden

I think only Democrats cheating can win 2024 as it sits right now
 
Captain Adverse said:
I agree. With one caveat, we are not a Democracy. At practically every level, whether it be National, State, or Local (with a few exceptions in that last category) we are factually a Republic. Meaning we are typically governed by a class of officials that in our case are a mix of elected, and in many cases (when dealing with the appointees/employees of the Administrative State) by non-elected officials.



In the case of our elected "representatives" at various levels, you are correct.



Correct again. Except the problem is not just with pushing a button, albeit there have been issues with that from time to time. The big problem has to do with switching to a largely mass-mailed absentee balloting. This is provably the least secure method of voting for many reasons, including but not limited to:

1. Buying votes.
2. Others filling out/pressuring votes of the elderly, indigent, etc.
3. Stealing/destroying ballots
4. People who have moved to new jurisdictions still voting in either their old, or both old and new locales.
5. Ballots not being delivered
6. More recently, efforts seeking to allow non-citizen migrants the right to vote.



The only way Biden can win this election is by hook or crook. The lawfare efforts in Democrat controlled areas (NYC, D.C., Atlanta, etc.) are a prime example.


I don't think anyone believes this. The Regressive-Left (I can't use the term Progressive because IMO they are the group seeking to "destroy democracy") is openly seeking to change the USA into a One-Party Socialist State. That would only allow for the same kind of "elections" that occur in China, N. Korea, Venezuela, and used to occur in the old Soviet Union.

The rest of us believe that Trump will win because more and more people are coming to realize the above.
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The USA is both a republic and a democracy
 
Tbird19482 said:
well according to trump the last two Presidential elections were rigged.
He claimed the 2016 election was rigged WAY before it was even held.
and I am still asking aren't things usually " RIGGED " in the favor of the winner?
so if the 2016 election was rigged as Trump said it was and he won then who rigged it, how did they rig it, when was it rigged , and how did Trump know it was rigged so early? WAY before it was even held.
Unless he was the one who rigged it.
If we take Trump at his word then there should have been an investigation into the 2016 election a long time ago.
I think these questions should be asked and Trump should have to answer them under oath.
This alone IMO was one of the reasons the MAGAS don't believe things are above the board and things were rigged .
Trump said so.
Trump needs to answer some questions.
Have a nice day
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According to trump the primaries were rigged if he didnt win them
Trump only accepts results he likes
 
stealthycat said:
if Biden magically gets another 15 million mail in ballots it will further erode people's faith in the system

Trump is hugely popular, way more so than Biden

I think only Democrats cheating can win 2024 as it sits right now
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Trump is also hugely unpopular way more so than Biden
Amazing isnt that those that like him love him those that dislike him loathe him
 
Quag said:
According to trump the primaries were rigged if he didnt win them
Trump only accepts results he likes
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according to TRUMP everything is rigged IF HE doesn't win.
Trump is the biggest problem this country has, he is doing nothing good for anybody but himself and Trump is the one dividing this country with all his lies and his " RIGGED " BS
Trump is ONLY out for Trump, he could give two sh--s about this country or anybody in it.
Have a nice day
 
Slartibartfast said:
If you self identify in that group, then the response would apply to you. If you do not, then it probably doesn't.

In terms of questioning their stance, I don't see a lot of evidence that many in the MAGA crowd focus on logical consistency in their beliefs. It tends to be more emotion based with a desire to rage at whatever the effigy of the day is (and an addiction to the neurochemical rewards associated with feeling "righteous anger"). So, it's likely that this will not cause them to question their stance.
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I believe in the MAGA Leader so strongly, as do Most voters, that for him to lose is virtually impossible without rigging the process. The Drumpf is the only person who can rid the country of all this compromise BS that just hinders becoming the Best Country we can be. The socalled free press that ferments descent needs be put under control & punished where necessary. Once voters understand what is good for them, votes in the high 80%'s will become the norm. Educated votes know what is good for them. ;)
 
Quag said:
Trump is also hugely unpopular way more so than Biden
Amazing isnt that those that like him love him those that dislike him loathe him
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we are a very split nation for sure - the opposite of what O'Biden promised
 
jpevans said:
I believe in the MAGA Leader so strongly, as do Most voters, that for him to lose is virtually impossible without rigging the process. The Drumpf is the only person who can rid the country of all this compromise BS that just hinders becoming the Best Country we can be. The socalled free press that ferments descent needs be put under control & punished where necessary. Once voters understand what is good for them, votes in the high 80%'s will become the norm. Educated votes know what is good for them. ;)
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YES the so called free press HAS to be put under some type of control god for bid they have any first Amendment rights.
those are ONLY for Trump and the MAGAS.
Have a nice day
 
You. said:
I think that an erosion of faith in voting is a bigger threat to democracy than any one term by any one person.
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I agree. If a sizable portion of Americans do not trust that we have free and fair elections something is seriously wrong.
You. said:
First premise: Voting IS a faith-based endeavor. Voters have to have faith that the system is fair. By this I mean that the vast majority of voters have zero proof that their vote was recorded as they intended it to be cast. It’s basically a black box system for most people. Push button and have faith in the system after that.
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I partially disagree on that one. I think the states that run elections by traditional methods such as one day in person voting with traditional absentee balloting allowed, have passed and enforce voter ID laws and prohibit such things as ballot harvesting and drop boxes are trustworthy. I have complete faith in my state that my vote is counted and not canceled out by someone not legally entitled to vote.
You. said:
Second premise: Election deniers belief that the system is rigged will only be exacerbated by a Biden win. Democrats would be unhappy but will likely accept the results.

I’m sure some deniers would claim a Trump win was 5-D chess by the cabal to trick conservatives the system isn’t rigged, but wouldn’t some have to begin to believe in the system again?
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Sadly at least one presidential election was rigged. I don't think any seriously objective person actually believes that Joe Biden, who could not draw much more then flies to his rallies in 2020 could actually earned over 80 million votes, when for instance the very charasmatic president he served under could not garner that many votes. My point is that for presidential elections to be trusted, all states should have the same safeguards, which in my opinion includes same day in person voting while allowing traditional absentee balloting (not mass mailout), no ballot harvesting, and no drop boxes.
 
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