Do you support scrapping the H1-B Visa program?

[aociswundumho]

For anyone who doesn't know, this is an idiotic program designed to limit the number of highly skilled immigrants allowed into the country to about 80k. There is an enormous demand for these visas. Those of you with at least two brain cells to rub together might be wondering why on earth anyone would want to limit the number of highly-educated, highly-skilled, and highly productive people into the country. Well, this is the kind of terrible law democracies produce.

Before you answer the question in the title, consider two men, both born on the same day thirty years ago. They both have high IQs, and both have a master's degree in electrical engineering. One of the men was born in America. When he enters the workforce, it is indisputable that he will be a net benefit to American society. The other man was born in India. Believe it or not, many people think that allowing the Indian man to enter the US workforce will be detrimental to American society, hence the need for programs like H1-B to limit the "harm". Exact same education, training, and experience, yet one is a godsend and the other is a curse because of where they were born.

 

[Gatsby]

I'm going to say no we shouldn't scrap it, because if it was scrapped the most likely outcome is that it would be replaced by...nothing.

If we had an actual meritocratic immigration system where we had a generous number of green cards for smart, successful people, then I'd be OK getting rid of the H1B visa. Because it does have a lot of problems. But most of those problems can be summed up as "It's too restrictive" rather than "It's too permissive."

 

[NatMorton]

Short answer, no. These are the people we should be encouraging to immigrate.

 

[NolanVoyd]

For anyone who doesn't know, this is an idiotic program designed to limit the number of highly skilled immigrants allowed into the country to about 80k. There is an enormous demand for these visas. Those of you with at least two brain cells to rub together might be wondering why on earth anyone would want to limit the number of highly-educated, highly-skilled, and highly productive people into the country. Well, this is the kind of terrible law democracies produce.

Before you answer the question in the title, consider two men, both born on the same day thirty years ago. They both have high IQs, and both have a master's degree in electrical engineering. One of the men was born in America. When he enters the workforce, it is indisputable that he will be a net benefit to American society. The other man was born in India. Believe it or not, many people think that allowing the Indian man to enter the US workforce will be detrimental to American society, hence the need for programs like H1-B to limit the "harm". Exact same education, training, and experience, yet one is a godsend and the other is a curse because of where they were born.

How about this, let's invest more in training Americans to do the highskilled, high paying jobs........and streamline the legal immigration system so that immigrants can come legally to meet the low skilled low income labor needs of our economy.

It's a win win.

Why protect low paying jobs for Americans, and let immigrants in to take the high paying jobs, when we could train Americans to do the high paying jobs and let immigrants start at the bottom, they would be happy to.

 

[Gatsby]

How about this, let's invest more in training Americans to do the highskilled, high paying jobs........and streamline the legal immigration system so that immigrants can come legally to meet the low skilled low income labor needs of our economy.

It's a win win.

Why protect low paying jobs for Americans, and let immigrants in to take the high paying jobs, when we could train Americans to do the high paying jobs and let immigrants start at the bottom, they would be happy to.

High-skilled immigrants are not "taking high-paying jobs", they are net job creators. There aren't a fixed number of high-skilled jobs available.

 

[NolanVoyd]

High-skilled immigrants are not "taking high-paying jobs",

Yrs they are.

H1B recipients are indeed taking high paying jobs. Seems you don't know how the program works. Look into it.


Why not invest in training Americans better and import people to do the grunt work?

 

[Slartibartfast]

I would be more inclined to bring in high skilled workers en route for citizenship

 

[NolanVoyd]

I would be more inclined to bring in high skilled workers en route for citizenship

Why?

Why not invest in training Americans to do those jobs and import people to do the grunt work?

 

[Gatsby]

Yrs they are.

No. They aren't. Bringing in more high-skilled workers creates more jobs than they fill.

Lump of labour fallacy - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Why not invest in training Americans better and import people to do the Grint work?

Because a lack of training for American workers is not the main bottleneck on the number of data scientists, physicists, and bioengineers in our economy. A person with a 100 IQ is never going to be able to do those jobs regardless of training. Or if they do, they will be very unhappy/unsuccessful in those jobs.

 

[aociswundumho]

Why protect low paying jobs for Americans, and let immigrants in to take the high paying jobs,

Because the economy is not a jobs program.

 

[NolanVoyd]

No. They aren't. Bringing in more high-skilled workers creates more jobs than they fill.

Lump of labour fallacy - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You don't understand how the program works. They are literally brought in to take already existing high paying jobs.

And low skilled immigrants also expands the economy creating more jobs.
Lots of Americans are smart enough but don't have the training

We can fix that.

 

[BirdinHand]

I’d be more inclined to actually enforce actual immigration law around H1B visas and close loopholes in the H1B visa program such as allowing corporations to simply utilize contracting firms that subcontract H1 and other temporary visa holders instead of showing that they couldn’t find a citizen/GC holder BEFORE reaching to the H1 pool.

The loopholes are the problem. Close them.

We don’t need Infosys (or any other large “body shop” in the H1 world) to be the first phone call a hiring manager makes, which is what a lot of tech hiring has become.

At least ATTEMPT to hire citizens and green card holders FIRST.

 

[NolanVoyd]

Because the economy is not a jobs program.

That doesn't adress my point in the slightest.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Why?

Why not invest in training Americans to do those jobs and import people to do the grunt work?

That also needs to happen and it should be the source of at least 95% of stem workers.

 

[Gatsby]

You don't understand how the program works. They are literally brought in to take already existing high paying jobs.

Which creates more than one new job.

And low skilled immigrants also expands the economy creating more jobs.

Yes but to a much lesser extent.

Lots of Americans are smart enough but don't have the training

No. There are probably a few here and there, but that's not the main bottleneck. Anyone who has the intelligence, interest, and motivation to get a high-paying job has plenty of resources available to them, from college degrees to free online tutorials, depending on their level of commitment.

We can fix that.

Not really. The reason some jobs pay a lot of money is because not many people can do them. Supply and demand.

If you want more physicists, you don't go around searching for undiscovered 130 IQ Americans who want to be physicists and who, for some reason, haven't been able to do so. Nor should we falsely assume that a 100 IQ person is just a future physicist who needs a better education.

You just bring in smart people who want to be physicists.

 

[multivita-man]

Short answer, no. These are the people we should be encouraging to immigrate.

Speaking in purely economic terms, we should also encourage cheap 'unskilled' labor, too, provided we don't encourage them to take the dole.

 

[NolanVoyd]

Which creates more than one new job.

Nonsense, and not what your source says. It doesn't distinguish between high skilled and low skilled labor, both expand the economy.

So back to my point.

If we are going to import labor why not import people to do the grunt work and invest in training Americans to do the high paying jobs?

Yes but to a much lesser extent.


No. There are probably a few here and there, but that's not the main bottleneck.

There are plenty of Americans with plenty of intelligence who just can't afford the higher education and training.

We can fix that.

 

[BirdinHand]

High-skilled immigrants are not "taking high-paying jobs", they are net job creators. There aren't a fixed number of high-skilled jobs available.

H1B visa loop holes dramatically cut wages, especially in tech.

Pick a body shop subcontracting firm and they’re going to put a Java developer on an H1B visa that they import from India or move around the country like an indentured servant in the seat at $50/hr or $60/hr TO THE FIRM…when the prevailing wage is more like $65-70/hr for an citizen or a GC holder TO the citizen/GC holder.

The gap grows the higher up the skill chain you go - and a lot of times there is also an ultimate price to be paid in quality.

It happens all day, every day. And especially in large tech projects.

And many times? The local citizens and GC holders don’t even get a SHOT at the job because the entire project, department, etc is outsourced to the body-shop.

I spent my entire career in tech and engineering while in HR/talent. It’s gotten VERY bad with an inundation of H1 visa holders since around 2000.

(Oh, and remember…although there is a “cap” of X number every year, there’s also a “lottery”…and some years hundreds of thousands of H1B visas are granted in the lottery.)

 

[NolanVoyd]

Short answer, no. These are the people we should be encouraging to immigrate.

Why not?

Why import people to take high paying jobs and preserve the shit jobs for Americans.

That makes no sense

 

[Slartibartfast]

H1B visa loop holes dramatically cut wages, especially in tech.

Pick a body shop subcontracting firm and they’re going to put a Java developer on an H1B visa that they import from India or move around the country like an indentured servant in the seat at $50/hr or $60/hr TO THE FIRM…when the prevailing wage is more like $65-70/hr for an citizen or a GC holder TO the citizen/GC holder.

The gap grows the higher up the skill chain you go - and a lot of times there is also an ultimate price to be paid in quality.

It happens all day, every day. And especially in large tech projects.

And many times? The local citizens and GC holders don’t even get a SHOT at the job because the entire project, department, etc is outsourced to the body-shop.

I spent my entire career in tech and engineering while in HR/talent. It’s gotten VERY bad with an inundation of H1 visa holders since around 2000.

(Oh, and remember…although there is a “cap” of X number every year, there’s also a “lottery”…and some years hundreds of thousands of H1B visas are granted in the lottery.)

Yup. We have multiple in my department that are HB1 permanent contractors, at least one QC engineer, two data engineers, a BA, a data modeler, and multiple data scientists.

 

[BirdinHand]

Yup. We have multiple in my department that are HB1 permanent contractors.

Yep.

Never facing the scrutiny of proving the need for a temporary visa holder…because “technically” they aren’t YOUR employee.

They’re the employee of the subcontractor.

Know that game all too well. Part of why I just can’t stomach HR/talent in tech anymore.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Yep.

Never facing the scrutiny of proving the need for a temporary visa holder…because “technically” they aren’t YOUR employee.

They’re the employee of the subcontractor.

Know that game all too well. Part of why I just can’t stomach HR/talent in tech anymore.

What’s sad is that they are stuck there because my company has a no hb1 sponsorship policy.

 

[Gatsby]

Nonsense, and not what your source says. It doesn't distinguish between high skilled and low skilled labor, both expand the economy.

If you acknowledge that bringing in high-skilled workers expands the economy then what exactly is the problem?

If we are going to import labor why not import people to do the grunt work and invest in training Americans to do the high paying jobs?

I already answered the second half of this question. As for the first half, it's a red herring. I'm fine with allowing some low-skilled immigration too, but it's not relevant to the topic of this thread.

There are plenty of Americans with plenty of intelligence who just can't afford the higher education and training.

This is simply not true, and believing it to be true leads to some very ugly (and very wrong) conclusions about how our economy should operate.

There are probably a few underachieving smart people here and there in the United States, limited by a lack of education, but the main bottleneck is that 95% of people lack either the raw intelligence, interest, or motivation to do certain high-skilled jobs. And that's not something that can be fixed by throwing more money at the problem.

 

[BirdinHand]

What’s sad is that they are stuck there because my company has a no hb1 sponsorship policy.

And that’s the other part of it that I despise - the people get stuck in almost an indentured status to the body shop firm.

With no path to permanent legal status in the US in many cases.

Because the actual company can’t PROVE the need for the H1B person nor do they want to outlay the money to put them on a path to a GC.

We have hundreds of thousands of people stuck in “temporary” status…and their families in trailing visa statuses also.

The loopholes NEED to be closed but they won’t be…because $$$

 

[Gatsby]

H1B visa loop holes dramatically cut wages, especially in tech.

Pick a body shop subcontracting firm and they’re going to put a Java developer on an H1B visa that they import from India or move around the country like an indentured servant in the seat at $50/hr or $60/hr TO THE FIRM…when the prevailing wage is more like $65-70/hr for an citizen or a GC holder TO the citizen/GC holder.

The gap grows the higher up the skill chain you go - and a lot of times there is also an ultimate price to be paid in quality.

It happens all day, every day. And especially in large tech projects.

And many times? The local citizens and GC holders don’t even get a SHOT at the job because the entire project, department, etc is outsourced to the body-shop.

I spent my entire career in tech and engineering while in HR/talent. It’s gotten VERY bad with an inundation of H1 visa holders since around 2000.

(Oh, and remember…although there is a “cap” of X number every year, there’s also a “lottery”…and some years hundreds of thousands of H1B visas are granted in the lottery.)

I agree, the H1B visa program creates a lot of economic distortions and it's rife with abuse at all levels.

I'm fine with replacing it with more green cards awarded meritocratically. But I suspect that if it was eliminated, it would most likely be replaced with nothing at all.