Do you have an obligation to tell your one night stand if you are transexual?

[Black Dog]

I dont think there is a correlation between genetic abnormalities and gender identity. At least nothing that I have heard.

But we do happen to know that in many ways a MTF transsexuals brain is female and a FTM transsexuals brain is male. I have studies/articles on that if you are interested.

"The mostly likely explanation: The Zhou/Kruijver findings reflect the effects of feminizing and masculinizing hormone therapy," not natural born DNA or biology.

Unless this has changed in the last 5 years (and I would be interested in seeing it) Your statement would be incorrect.

The brain-sex theory of transsexualism has never been easy to reconcile with clinical reality: Homosexual and nonhomosexual MtF transsexualism are so different clinically that it is almost impossible to imagine that they could have the same etiology. Nevertheless, for a time the Zhou/Kruijver data gave the brain-sex theory a certain superficial plausibility. In 2002, Chung et al. reported new data that raised serious doubts about the brain-sex theory, but the authors were able to explain why the theory might still be plausible. The new data reported by Hulshoff Pol et al. in 2006 did not invalidate these explanations, but it rendered them largely irrelevant. The simplest and most plausible explanation of the Zhou/Kruijver findings is that they are attributable, completely or predominantly, to the effects of cross-sex hormone therapy administered during adulthood. There is no longer any reason to postulate anything more complicated. - A Critique of the Brain-Sex Theory of Transsexualism

PS the author is still practicing: http://www.annelawrence.com/practice.html

 

[maquiscat]

I know exactly what you are saying. The FACT you cut out all of my reply except for a partial sentence pretty much confirms what I said.

Please point out where I said it was different in any way? I know you can't, but what the hell.

AGAIN. Please point out where I said it was different? I never even implyed such utter nonsense.

The entire premise of your argument is that if it is born with a penis between it's leg then it must, with few exceptions, have "normal" male DNA and the DNA can't change. Same applies to the person being born with a vagina, I presume. But you and I do not know what their DNA is, especially prior to any hormone treatments. So if there DNA is somehow messed up such that their genitals don't match the rest of their body, how is changing the physical body to match what the rest of them is, not correcting them to what they are? If their brains and hormones are that of a female due to this messed up DNA, how is removing the penis and replacing it with a vagina not fixing the physical results of the messed up DNA?

Because modern science syas so....

1.0. DIAGNOSTIC PROCEDURE
1.1. We recommend that the diagnosis of gender
identity disorder (GID) be made by a mental
health professional (MHP). - http://www.endo-society.org/guidelines/final/upload/endocrine-treatment-of-transsexual-persons.pdf

No conclusive evidence exit to date that it is a physical disorder. Some rare cases do exist, but again they are very rare and not in any way conslusive.

Many disorders that are caused by physical problems, such as depression, ADD, Aspergers, are first diagnosed by a mental health professional. And there there are others, such as PTSD, that are caused by factors purely outside the body. Being diagnosed for a given disorder by a mental health professional does not show one way or the other whether the person's problem is due to problems within their body or from without. Again where is the study that shows that the scientists are looking at pre-hormone treatment transsexuals and checking on differences in DNA, brain structure and other physical factors? I'm not part of the medical or scientific community and thus I wouldn't know if one is going on, but I've not heard any news reports of studies being released. BTW I will try to get to that Brain-Sex Theory link this evening when I get off work, but I don't have time now, but again given the part you quoted, it does not imply a pre-hormone treatment study, if they are concluding that the hormone treatments are the cause.

 

[Omgitsme]

We have evidence (and as I said) it is rare, or due to hormone therapy. I did not say it was "just rare cases". It is however VERY rare overall. It is the exception, rather than the rule by far, or the most plausible according to more recent studies that I know of is not at all.

Most scientist don't know if any part of the brain has anything at all to do with gender assignment. Scientist suspect it may have, but still no clue overall. Hence it being (for now) purely psychological in nature.

HRT has nothing to do with it. There have been studies done on transsexuals that wernt on HRT yet and came up with the same results. I wasnt talking about gender assignment though but gender identity.

 

[Omgitsme]

"The mostly likely explanation: The Zhou/Kruijver findings reflect the effects of feminizing and masculinizing hormone therapy," not natural born DNA or biology.

Unless this has changed in the last 5 years (and I would be interested in seeing it) Your statement would be incorrect.

The brain-sex theory of transsexualism has never been easy to reconcile with clinical reality: Homosexual and nonhomosexual MtF transsexualism are so different clinically that it is almost impossible to imagine that they could have the same etiology. Nevertheless, for a time the Zhou/Kruijver data gave the brain-sex theory a certain superficial plausibility. In 2002, Chung et al. reported new data that raised serious doubts about the brain-sex theory, but the authors were able to explain why the theory might still be plausible. The new data reported by Hulshoff Pol et al. in 2006 did not invalidate these explanations, but it rendered them largely irrelevant. The simplest and most plausible explanation of the Zhou/Kruijver findings is that they are attributable, completely or predominantly, to the effects of cross-sex hormone therapy administered during adulthood. There is no longer any reason to postulate anything more complicated. - A Critique of the Brain-Sex Theory of Transsexualism

PS the author is still practicing: Anne A. Lawrence, M.D., Ph.D., M.A.: Practice Information

Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus

If I remember correctly Anne Lawrence believes that all transsexuals get SRS because of something called autogynephilia.

Blanchard's transsexualism typology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gotta go to work I make a better post later.

 

[Black Dog]

The entire premise of your argument is that if it is born with a penis between it's leg then it must, with few exceptions, have "normal" male DNA and the DNA can't change. Same applies to the person being born with a vagina, I presume. But you and I do not know what their DNA is, especially prior to any hormone treatments. So if there DNA is somehow messed up such that their genitals don't match the rest of their body, how is changing the physical body to match what the rest of them is, not correcting them to what they are? If their brains and hormones are that of a female due to this messed up DNA, how is removing the penis and replacing it with a vagina not fixing the physical results of the messed up DNA?

Many disorders that are caused by physical problems, such as depression, ADD, Aspergers, are first diagnosed by a mental health professional. And there there are others, such as PTSD, that are caused by factors purely outside the body. Being diagnosed for a given disorder by a mental health professional does not show one way or the other whether the person's problem is due to problems within their body or from without. Again where is the study that shows that the scientists are looking at pre-hormone treatment transsexuals and checking on differences in DNA, brain structure and other physical factors? I'm not part of the medical or scientific community and thus I wouldn't know if one is going on, but I've not heard any news reports of studies being released. BTW I will try to get to that Brain-Sex Theory link this evening when I get off work, but I don't have time now, but again given the part you quoted, it does not imply a pre-hormone treatment study, if they are concluding that the hormone treatments are the cause.

What is wrong with your comprehention? All this has already been answered and debunked and/or replyed to.

So you have basically ignored 90% of my replys made directly to you, and now you re-answer an old post?

Your credibuility has dropped to 0 with me.

Have a good one.

 

[Black Dog]

Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus

If I remember correctly Anne Lawrence believes that all transsexuals get SRS because of something called autogynephilia.

This is the 2000 study mentioned in my article. your article says...

"Analysis of the total number of SOM neurons of the human BSTc in individual patients with highly different hormone levels does not give any indication that changes in sex hormone levels in adulthood change the neuron numbers. Because the transsexuals had all been treated with estrogens, at least for some time (see Table 2⇓), the reduced neuron numbers of the BSTc could theoretically be due to the presence of high levels of circulating estrogens."

Mine is from 2006. This one is from 2000.

So again I will say no.

Blanchard's transsexualism typology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gotta go to work I make a better post later.

The Wiki article has nothing conclusive in it about brain structure etc at all. It does however mention "Blanchard autogynephilia theory."

So I will wait for any more recent studies than 2000.

 

[Black Dog]

HRT has nothing to do with it. There have been studies done on transsexuals that wernt on HRT yet and came up with the same results. I wasnt talking about gender assignment though but gender identity.

The simplest and most plausible explanation of the Zhou/Kruijver findings is that they are attributable, completely or predominantly, to the effects of cross-sex hormone therapy administered during adulthood. There is no longer any reason to postulate anything more complicated.

That is pretty self explanitory.

 

[Omgitsme]

"The mostly likely explanation: The Zhou/Kruijver findings reflect the effects of feminizing and masculinizing hormone therapy," not natural born DNA or biology.

Unless this has changed in the last 5 years (and I would be interested in seeing it) Your statement would be incorrect.

The brain-sex theory of transsexualism has never been easy to reconcile with clinical reality: Homosexual and nonhomosexual MtF transsexualism are so different clinically that it is almost impossible to imagine that they could have the same etiology. Nevertheless, for a time the Zhou/Kruijver data gave the brain-sex theory a certain superficial plausibility. In 2002, Chung et al. reported new data that raised serious doubts about the brain-sex theory, but the authors were able to explain why the theory might still be plausible. The new data reported by Hulshoff Pol et al. in 2006 did not invalidate these explanations, but it rendered them largely irrelevant. The simplest and most plausible explanation of the Zhou/Kruijver findings is that they are attributable, completely or predominantly, to the effects of cross-sex hormone therapy administered during adulthood. There is no longer any reason to postulate anything more complicated. - A Critique of the Brain-Sex Theory of Transsexualism

PS the author is still practicing: Anne A. Lawrence, M.D., Ph.D., M.A.: Practice Information

That link there isnt a scientific study. Its basically an opinion piece by Dr Anne Lawrence who is known to have controversial views on transsexuality that is contrary to what most experts in that field believe. She believes that the majority of transsexuals get SRS because they are turned on by the idea of themselves as a woman. This is called autogynephilia and has been debunked several times.

But anyways here is another link about transsexual brains before HRT.

White matter microstructure in female to mal... [J Psychiatr Res. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Omgitsme]

This is the 2000 study mentioned in my article. your article says...

"Analysis of the total number of SOM neurons of the human BSTc in individual patients with highly different hormone levels does not give any indication that changes in sex hormone levels in adulthood change the neuron numbers. Because the transsexuals had all been treated with estrogens, at least for some time (see Table 2⇓), the reduced neuron numbers of the BSTc could theoretically be due to the presence of high levels of circulating estrogens."

Mine is from 2006. This one is from 2000.

So again I will say no.



The Wiki article has nothing conclusive in it about brain structure etc at all. It does however mention "Blanchard autogynephilia theory."

So I will wait for any more recent studies than 2000.

That wiki article was posted by me so you could look up what autogynephilia is.

Also from my first link.

"Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers."

But I did provide another more recent study in my other post.

 

[Omgitsme]

The simplest and most plausible explanation of the Zhou/Kruijver findings is that they are attributable, completely or predominantly, to the effects of cross-sex hormone therapy administered during adulthood. There is no longer any reason to postulate anything more complicated.

That is pretty self explanitory.

See my other posts.

 

[Black Dog]

That link there isnt a scientific study. Its basically an opinion piece by Dr Anne Lawrence who is known to have controversial views on transsexuality that is contrary to what most experts in that field believe. She believes that the majority of transsexuals get SRS because they are turned on by the idea of themselves as a woman. This is called autogynephilia and has been debunked several times.

But anyways here is another link about transsexual brains before HRT.

White matter microstructure in female to mal... [J Psychiatr Res. 2011] - PubMed - NCBI

You keep saying things have been debunked when they have not.

Your own article says...

"Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated FtM transsexuals is closer to the pattern of subjects who share their gender identity (males) than those who share their biological sex (females). Our results provide evidence for an inherent difference in the brain structure of FtM transsexuals."

"Closer to the pattern" by how much? Does this mean anything? It certainly does not mean anything biologically speaking. They also admit it is not even a theory, but evidence of a difference from BOTH biological male and females.

This shows again nothing conclusive at all. I am sorry but again this does not make anyone who was born a man anything less than a man be it brain, biology or DNA.

 

[Black Dog]

See my other posts.

I have and again nothing conclusive, nothing at all. Until "closer" is more than an abstract concept of something. It is nothing at all except it shows a difference from all biological males and females.

 

[Mustachio]

I don't mean to go Dan Savage on all ya'll, but a ton of the posts in this thread use the word "Transexual" when they mean Transgender. There is a difference.

 

[Omgitsme]

You keep saying things have been debunked when they have not.

Your own article says...

"Our results show that the white matter microstructure pattern in untreated FtM transsexuals is closer to the pattern of subjects who share their gender identity (males) than those who share their biological sex (females). Our results provide evidence for an inherent difference in the brain structure of FtM transsexuals."

"Closer to the pattern" by how much? Does this mean anything? It certainly does not mean anything biologically speaking. They also admit it is not even a theory, but evidence of a difference from BOTH biological male and females.

This shows again nothing conclusive at all. I am sorry but again this does not make anyone who was born a man anything less than a man be it brain, biology or DNA.

I said that autogynephilia in transsexuals has been debunked and it has. No one has been able to replicate Blanchards results about the relationship of MTFs and autogynephilia.

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

We dont know exactly what it means. But it does show that there is a brain difference between untreated transsexuals and their birth sex. From what I gathered its pretty close to the middle of the both sexes but is closer to the sex they identify as.

I never claimed there was conclusive data either. We dont exactly know what causes transsexuality just like we dont exactly know what causes homosexuality. And I never claimed that this made someone a man or a woman.

 

[Black Dog]

I don't mean to go Dan Savage on all ya'll, but a ton of the posts in this thread use the word "Transexual" when they mean Transgender. There is a difference.

The difference in the scope of the conversation is meaningless. We are not scientists or anything even close.

 

[Black Dog]

I said that autogynephilia in transsexuals has been debunked and it has. No one has been able to replicate Blanchards results about the relationship of MTFs and autogynephilia.

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

We dont know exactly what it means. But it does show that there is a brain difference between untreated transsexuals and their birth sex. From what I gathered its pretty close to the middle of the both sexes but is closer to the sex they identify as.

I never claimed there was conclusive data either. We dont exactly know what causes transsexuality just like we dont exactly know what causes homosexuality. And I never claimed that this made someone a man or a woman.

I got you confused with that other poster that was pretty clueless, lol.

Sorry about that.

 

[Omgitsme]

I got you confused with that other poster that was pretty clueless, lol.

Sorry about that.

Lol I do that too so no problem.

 

[Mustachio]

The difference in the scope of the conversation is meaningless. We are not scientists or anything even close.

Sorry, I better head out then and go do more science experiments

 

[Omgitsme]

If you think the distinction of transgender vs. transsexual is irrelevant to this thread, you should be saying "we are not intelligent or anything even close." Some of the things you've said are true about transsexuals but false about transgendered individuals. And while it's obvious from your posts that you're usually intending to talk about transgendered people, you're citing material regarding transsexuals, so it's impossible to take your argument seriously because you don't even know who you're talking about. You don't need to be a scientist to understand, people identify with a gender and they identify with a sexual preference. Was that too scientific for you?

It seems to me like he is talking about transsexuals in all of his posts. Do you have any examples of people misusing the term transsexual or transgendered?

 

[Mustachio]

It seems to me like he is talking about transsexuals in all of his posts. Do you have any examples of people misusing the term transsexual or transgendered?

No you're right, I edited my post. Well, I don't know if he is talking about transsexuals in all his posts, but from what I've read, it's fine.

 

[Black Dog]

If you think the distinction of transgender vs. transexual is irrelevant to this thread, you should be saying "we are not intelligent or anything even close." Some of the things you've said are true about transexuals but false about transgendered individuals. And while it's obvious from your posts that you're usually intending to talk about transgendered people, you're citing material regarding transexuals, so it's impossible to take your argument seriously because you don't even know who you're talking about. You don't need to be a scientist to understand, people identify with a gender and they identify with a sexual preference. Was that too scientific for you?

Sorry, I better head out then and go do more science experiments

It's a bit late to be a smartass when your mistake has already been noted as I receive emails of all posts to me. If you are going to call someone stupid, you should at least understand the conversation or it's scope. For the average person the terms are used interchangeably to mean a person who wants to or has had an operation to change their sex. The average person is not stupid because they don't know that much about a person who is pretending to be the opposite sex, or someone who actually wants to be the opposite sex. I don't know the difference between allot of things, this does not make someone stupid. Being transgendered never even came up except for one poster who knew very little anyway, and YOU.

For the record we have been discussing transsexuals, not cross dressers etc as in transgendered. Look at the subject of the thread. It would be very easy to tell someone who is transgendered before they are intimate. Transsexual, not so much. That is what we are talking about.

 

[RedAkston]

Moderator's Warning:

Mustachio and Blackdog - knock it off or else.

 

[Mustachio]

It's a bit late to be a smartass when your mistake has already been noted as I receive emails of all posts to me. If you are going to call someone stupid, you should at least understand the conversation or it's scope. For the average person the terms are used interchangeably to mean a person who wants to or has had an operation to change their sex. The average person is not stupid because they don't know that much about a person who is pretending to be the opposite sex, or someone who actually wants to be the opposite sex. I don't know the difference between allot of things, this does not make someone stupid. Being transgendered never even came up except for one poster who knew very little anyway, and YOU.

For the record we have been discussing transsexuals, not cross dressers etc as in transgendered. Look at the subject of the thread. It would be very easy to tell someone who is transgendered before they are intimate. Transsexual, not so much. That is what we are talking about.

I edited my post before I was "called out." My apologies, good sir, the terms are used differently from one place to another but that's semantics and I certainly don't wish to argue such at this place or time.

May I contribute to the original thread itself - if you're having a one night stand, you're just looking for a "good time." Do you have an obligation to tell somebody that you have herpes before engaging with them in a "one night stand?" Yes, because you could transmit herpes to that person. Do you have an obligation to tell somebody that you have inadequate genital size before engaging with them in a "one night stand?" No, because you're both looking for a good time, and who knows what that person was expecting -- physically, and otherwise. I think it's pretty much expected that within the confines of a one night stand, you're both looking for a good time. You get what you pay for. If you want to get exactly what you're looking for, pay for it or do it the way most people do it by dating. Otherwise, don't look a gift transsexual in the mouth. That sounds kind of fun, but don't do it.

 

[Black Dog]

I edited my post before I was "called out." My apologies, good sir, the terms are used differently from one place to another but that's semantics and I certainly don't wish to argue such at this place or time.

I appreciate that, thanks.

May I contribute to the original thread itself - if you're having a one night stand, you're just looking for a "good time." Do you have an obligation to tell somebody that you have herpes before engaging with them in a "one night stand?" Yes, because you could transmit herpes to that person. Do you have an obligation to tell somebody that you have inadequate genital size before engaging with them in a "one night stand?" No, because you're both looking for a good time, and who knows what that person was expecting -- physically, and otherwise. I think it's pretty much expected that within the confines of a one night stand, you're both looking for a good time. You get what you pay for. If you want to get exactly what you're looking for, pay for it or do it the way most people do it by dating. Otherwise, don't look a gift transsexual in the mouth. That sounds kind of fun, but don't do it.

That is a problem. This is why you have transsexuals getting beaten etc. Not everyone is OK with having sex with a transsexual, one night stand or not. A little honesty will avoid trouble for both party's.

If someone is going to be dishonest about it, they are setting themselves up for repercussions.

PS Things also have a tendency to get out. If a friend see's you and knows about the transsexual (I have seen this happen) it can escalate quickly. Fortunately the transsexual person (a friend as well) was and is always honest from the start so no big deal. I mean it happens.