Do you consider this a form of child abuse.

[ClaraD]

If it is part of their religious belief it is none of our damn business....why is it so hard for some people here to mind their own damn business?

 

[Lovebug]

If it is part of their religious belief it is none of our damn business....why is it so hard for some people here to mind their own damn business?

Recent SCOTUS decisions make me question your statement.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Right, everyone has the freedom to dress how they want. However, it doesn't mean that we should make it socially acceptable to treat women in that fashion. For example, in the city I live in we have one of the largest Somali and Sudanese communities in America. I get out and run over lunch a lot. Well, run or lift weights. When you are out walking or running, you will notice a lot that people in cars typically don't notice. For example, it is an very common occurrence for me to see Somali or Sudanese families walking down a sidewalk in 90 degree plus heat, extremely humid, the son's and the father dressed in shorts and a t-shirt or in some cases just a tank top, while the older daughters and wife is covered head to toe in a niqab.

Now, you might say that is their choice. Those women choose to dress that way. Well, is it really a choice when they are told their whole life that refusing to dress that way will mean they are whores and will burn in hell for all eternity? Is it a choice when they are beat as teens if they refuse to cover themselves head to toe?

I can't think of anything more antithetical to liberalism to think that Muslim women are different species than other women, and that they have different wants and needs in life than other women. Yet, that is exactly we effectively do in the west.

I have no idea what you are trying to communicate.

Along with boredom is confusion....


"I can't think of anything more antithetical to liberalism to think that Muslim women are different species than other women...",

I didn't even mention women! Now you read minds too.

"Liberal" is not a swearword anywhere but Amerika. My Liberalism is steeped in Canadian law and tradition. And it embraces a 'Live and let live' attitude.

You of course want to be able to dictate how people dress. I don't give a **** what anyone wears with the exception of Trump in handcuffs.

So.....how about you stop mind reading and instead "mind" your own business" You have NO RIGHT of demand on anyone.

Don't bother replying.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Change has to come from within. All we can do is offer a helping hand.

Change typically comes from what societies and cultures consider acceptable behavior and treatment of others. For example, Western churches would be a lot less accepting of gays and lesbians, were it for the societies they exist in calling bigotry what it is in that regard. Moreover, the forces behind The Enlightenment, which among other things, changed Christianity in the west forever, did not come from within, but rather from the culture and societies the church existed in.

Even Islam itself, was an outside force. In it's case, at the time it moderated the treatment of women in even more draconian socities.

 

[Fearandloathing]

If it is part of their religious belief it is none of our damn business....why is it so hard for some people here to mind their own damn business?

What happens when some of us start objecting to nuns habits?

I happen to despise the way Donald Trump has his tie even with his small penis. Maybe we can ban that too!

 

[bomberfox]

I agree with France on it's outlawing of hajib in public. I wonder if America is up to curbing public religious displays and practices?
The recent reporting on the failure of many Hasidic schools leads one to question how much "freedom" there is in "freedom of religion". Of course the mistreatment of women is decidedly unAmerican. So is praying on football fields. So.....

I didn't answer the poll, because I feel the question was not asked in a forth right manner....

I think we should definitely remove all public funding for religious schools. You want a private school? Fund it yourself.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

If it is part of their religious belief it is none of our damn business....why is it so hard for some people here to mind their own damn business?

So, by that argument, the FLDS Polygamist Cult in Texas should get it's ranch back. https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-...us-cult-loses-texas-ranch-faces-huge-judgment

Almost all of these women would have told you that they were very happy and that being married in their teens to 60 year old polygamists was their choice and their religion:

So why is it any different?

 

[Cordelier]

I'm with the French... if you want to be French, be French. But if you want to cling to your barbaric traditions, then stay the hell where you came from.

 

[bomberfox]

What happens when someof us start objecting to nuns habits?

I happen to despise the way Donald Trump has his tie even with his small penis. Maybe we can ban that too!

Lets just ban trump period.

 

[Fearandloathing]

Lets just ban trump period.

No.

Put him in a nuns habit

 

[ALiberalModerate]

What happens when someof us start objecting to nuns habits?

I happen to despise the way Donald Trump has his tie even with his small penis. Maybe we can ban that too!

You are arguing a strawman. No one is saying that we should ban burkas. The argument is that we do not have to say as a society that this perfectly fine. For example, we don't ban the Klan. The Klan can hold rallies. However, as a society, we consider their beliefs to be abhorrent.

So should this woman be allowed to dress this way? Sure, but why should a liberal society that supposedly values human rights and the right of women, not consider the beliefs that require her to live her life like this to be utterly abhorrent.

 

[ClaraD]

So, by that argument, the FLDS Polygamist Cult in Texas should get it's ranch back. https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-...us-cult-loses-texas-ranch-faces-huge-judgment

Almost all of these women would have told you that they were very happy and that being married in their teens to 60 year old polygamists was their choice and their religion:

So why is it any different?

Forcing a child to have sex with a pedophile is quite different than having them wear religious attire.

 

[The Stars Tremble]

I won't answer the poll because the scenario is somewhat surreal. However, and I think I mentioned that once before, I saw (live web cam) a guy and his kid walking on a boardwalk, kid wore a dress, guy wore shorts and tshirt, but woman two steps behind him in a hajib, I didn't like it, at all.

I've seen something like that many times, and actually I don't see the problem. If the girls were also in hijab then it's clearly something imposed on them by the parents (in fact probably the father) whereas what you're describing sounds more like the adult woman's choice.

There's nothing natural about either extreme, it's purely a personal choice. Also bear in mind that if we banned hijab, some women would never go out in public at all. Wouldn't they be MORE oppressed that way?

 

[The Stars Tremble]

So should this woman be allowed to dress this way? Sure, but why should a liberal society that supposedly values human rights and the right of women, not consider the beliefs that require her to live her life like this to be utterly abhorrent.

Absolutely unacceptable. I don't care your gender or religion, no-one should wear those plastic clogs!

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Forcing a child to have sex with a pedophile is quite different than having them wear religious attire.

Forcing a 16 to 18 year old woman to marry a 60 year old man is different how? The point is, we know that despite their claims that they are happy, that they are actually being abused and its pure indoctrination. Yet you seem to think that an 18 year old woman wearing a niqab is different how? Do you think that is her actual choice? Do you honestly believe that any woman would choose to live her life like that without years of indoctrination, the threat of beatings if she refuses, and being told that if she doesn't dress this way, she is a whore and will burn in hell? Picture what it would be like to go through life where anytime you left your home, you were covered head to toe wearing a niqab or a burka. You experienced the entire world seeing it only - and barely seeing it at that.

As I pointed out in a different post, no one is saying that we should ban burkas - at least I am not. The argument is that we do not have to say as a society that this perfectly fine. For example, we don't ban the Klan. The Klan can hold rallies. However, as a society, we consider their beliefs to be abhorrent. So why, should a liberal society that supposedly values human rights and the right of women, not consider the beliefs that require a woman to live her life like this to be utterly abhorrent.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

A man in Houston, Texas requires his daughters to cover themselves head to toe in heavy garments all summer long. They can only expose their eyes, and must keep even their hands covered. In contrast, his sons may wear whatever they want. In fact, he would likely encourage them to wear shorts and t-shirts for the extremely hot and humid summers that Houston is known for.

Do you believe the above scenario would be a form of child abuse or mistreatment?

This is what we're reduced to now? Anecdotes?
A man in Houston bla bla bla...do you happen to have a link to this or are you another one who "doesn't know how to copy links to news stories"?

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Absolutely unacceptable. I don't care your gender or religion, no-one should wear those plastic clogs!

And to think they are probably the most comfortable article of clothing she has ever been allowed to put on.

 

[bomberfox]

You are arguing a strawman. No one is saying that we should ban burkas. The argument is that we do not have to say as a society that this perfectly fine. For example, we don't ban the Klan. The Klan can hold rallies. However, as a society, we consider their beliefs to be abhorrent.

So should this woman be allowed to dress this way? Sure, but why should a liberal society that supposedly values human rights and the right of women, not consider the beliefs that require her to live her life like this to be utterly abhorrent.

Ehhh i dunno if we want to compare a literal terrorist group with beliefs we find abhorrent.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

This is what we're reduced to now? Anecdotes?
A man in Houston bla bla bla...do you happen to have a link to this or are you another one who "doesn't know how to copy links to news stories"?

It's a hypothetical example. The point is, we would consider that abuse. Yet, the same man could require his daughters to wear a burka, and we would give him a pass. Why? As I have pointed out several times in the thread, I do not believe we should ban niqabs or burkas, but I don't understand why we make the beliefs that subjugate women in that way to be socially acceptable in a modern, liberal society.

For example, we don't ban the Klan, but we consider their beliefs to be utterly abhorrent, and thus not socially acceptable.

 

[Fearandloathing]

I think we should definitely remove all public funding for religious schools. You want a private school? Fund it yourself.

That's been the law here until recently. The government argues that they are providing a service that other wise would be free, and that not to fund them could mean they get taxes back.

NO GOVERNMENT wants that. So they partially fund. In Quebec & Ontario you can select which you support and your tax dollars will go to the Catholics.

And here's where it gets messy. We partially fund Catholics....but not Sikhs, who are in greater numbers.

Oops, watch this one, it's TNT and the fuse is lit.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

That's been the law here until recently. The government argues that they are providing a service that other wise would be free, and that not to fund them could mean they get taxes back.

NO GOVERNMENT wants that. So they partially fund. In Quebec & Ontario you can select which you support and your tax dollars will go to the Catholics.

And here's where it gets messy. We partially fund Catholics....but not Sikhs, who are in greater numbers.

Oops, watch this one, it's TNT and the fuse is lit.

Not one dime for private schools, takes money from public schools.

 

[bomberfox]

That's been the law here until recently. The government argues that they are providing a service that other wise would be free, and that not to fund them could mean they get taxes back.

NO GOVERNMENT wants that. So they partially fund. In Quebec & Ontario you can select which you support and your tax dollars will go to the Catholics.

And here's where it gets messy. We partially fund Catholics....but not Sikhs, who are in greater numbers.

Oops, watch this one, it's TNT and the fuse is lit.

Yeahhh religions get way too many privileges :/

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Ehhh i dunno if we want to compare a literal terrorist group with beliefs we find abhorrent.

If you want to make that comparison, I think you would find that the percent of the world's Muslims that find terrorist acts acceptable to be as high, or higher than members of the Klan that want literal violence. For example, a majority of Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan support killing someone that leaves their faith: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-support-the-death-penalty-for-leaving-islam/

Here is the thing. Next time there is a Klan rally, go yell whatever you want to at them. Likely nothing will happen to you. Then go draw a picture that denigrates the prophet and put it on your Instagram feed and see what happens. I mean come on, let's call a spade a spade here. There are lots of moderate Muslims, they are not in the majority though.

 

[choiceone]

I agree with France on it's outlawing of hajib in public. I wonder if America is up to curbing public religious displays and practices?
The recent reporting on the failure of many Hasidic schools leads one to question how much "freedom" there is in "freedom of religion". Of course the mistreatment of women is decidedly unAmerican. So is praying on football fields. So.....

I didn't answer the poll, because I feel the question was not asked in a forth right manner....

It's hijab, not hajib. Note: The poll doesn't address this. A hijab is something that covers the hair, ears, and neck. One word for what the poll addresses is chaderi (Afghanistan, Parsi, I think). Another is burka.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

It's hijab, not hajib. Note: The poll doesn't address this. A hijab is something that covers the hair, ears, and neck. One word for what the poll addresses is chaderi (Afghanistan, Parsi, I think). Another is burka.

Actually I am using the more commonly seen niqab as an example of oppression.