Do you Americans know about the Battle at the Kahlenberg mountain ?

[Tender Branson]

Yesterday was the 340th anniversary of it.

10.000 defenders who remained within Vienna on 12 September 1683 withstood 2 months of siege from 150.000 invading Turks and Arabs.

They were decimated to 5.000 in the 2 months, but the city didn't fall to the invaders even as they plundered and burnt down the outskirts, killing 50.000 Austrian citizens in the suburbs.

The decisive battle came on September 12, 1683 - when a combined army of Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Austrians, Germans, Saxons and Bavarians arrived in Vienna (70.000 strong) and defeated the 150.000 sieging Turks and Arabs.

Battle of Vienna - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Tender Branson]

Today, remembering the 1683 battle and liberation of Vienna from the Muslim invaders is seen "critical" by the Left, because it apparently glorifies anti-Muslim sentiment.

 

[Tender Branson]

Here is the Vienna suburb of Perchtoldsdorf, whose inhabitants were all raped and killed by the approaching invasion army of the Muslim Turks and Arabs in August 1683 and the city was looted and then completely burned down:

One of hundreds of such cities with the same fate in Eastern Austria at the time ...

 

[Tender Branson]

While Americans remember 9/11, some here in Austria still remember what happened to our people 340 years ago ... even if we are deemed "anti-Muslim" or "far-right" (I am not).

 

[Craig234]

War was pretty barbarous in those centuries. By all sides. I didn't know that battle. As for the left taking issue, I have no issue with celebrating the defense that sounds pretty amazing; but I can imagine some using the battle for anti-Muslim hate and think that's wrong. It's a bit analogous to how Fox can't cover 'black crime' enough to stir up anger at black people.

 

[Tender Branson]

War was pretty barbarous in those centuries. By all sides. I didn't know that battle. As for the left taking issue, I have no issue with celebrating the defense that sounds pretty amazing; but I can imagine some using the battle for anti-Muslim hate and think that's wrong. It's a bit analogous to how Fox can't cover 'black crime' enough to stir up anger at black people.

Yes, that's why war and war-mongering and fascism should always be prevented in the 1st place.

We Austrians had our "fair share" of wars that killed tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions over the past 1000 of years, so I know what I am talking about.

That is why we must remain neutral like Switzerland and not pour oil into the Ukraine War nearby.

While you can commemorate the suffering of Austrians 340 years ago, you can also criticize the use of "1683" on weapons of serial killers such as mass shooters in the US, Breivik in Norway and the New Zealand mosque killer.

 

[Craig234]

I don't think most have seen the somewhat obscure tv series from Turkey, 'Ertogal'. It provides some insight into the founding of the Ottoman empire that was powerful for centuries until the 19th century, eventually conquering the western Roman capital, Constantinopole. It should b viewed as what it is, a somewhat revealing propaganda cultural show.

 

[Craig234]

That is why we must remain neutral like Switzerland and not pour oil into the Ukraine War nearby.

Hold on, preventing war is good, but when Putin launches a wrong war, it's right to help the victims defend from him, not be 'neutral' about his crime.

 

[Variant]

Yes, that's why war and war-mongering and fascism should always be prevented in the 1st place.

We Austrians had our "fair share" of wars that killed tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions over the past 1000 of years, so I know what I am talking about.

That is why we must remain neutral like Switzerland and not pour oil into the Ukraine War nearby.

If Austria's allies took the same position back then the battle you wish to celebrate might have gone the other way when they were brutally invaded by the turks.

 

[Individual]

Having difficulty understanding what you're saying. Austria appears to have been saved as the result of Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Austrians, Germans, Saxons and Bavarians, coming to its aid, but then you appear to be saying Austria should remain neutral and not become involved in the Ukraine.
Am I missing something?

 

[Redress]

Yesterday was the 340th anniversary of it.

10.000 defenders who remained within Vienna on 12 September 1683 withstood 2 months of siege from 150.000 invading Turks and Arabs.

They were decimated to 5.000 in the 2 months, but the city didn't fall to the invaders even as they plundered and burnt down the outskirts, killing 50.000 Austrian citizens in the suburbs.

The decisive battle came on September 12, 1683 - when a combined army of Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Austrians, Germans, Saxons and Bavarians arrived in Vienna (70.000 strong) and defeated the 150.000 sieging Turks and Arabs.

Battle of Vienna - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I remember the battle of Varna too.

 

[Craig234]

If Austria's allies took the same position back then the battle you wish to celebrate might have gone the other way when they were brutally invaded by the turks.

Funny how someone who praises the "combined army of Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Austrians, Germans, Saxons and Bavarians" coming and saving them from the more powerful invaders, says they must remain neutral toward helping Ukraine against its more powerful invader.

 

[Sweden]

Yes, that's why war and war-mongering and fascism should always be prevented in the 1st place.

We Austrians had our "fair share" of wars that killed tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions over the past 1000 of years, so I know what I am talking about.

That is why we must remain neutral like Switzerland and not pour oil into the Ukraine War nearby.

While you can commemorate the suffering of Austrians 340 years ago, you can also criticize the use of "1683" on weapons of serial killers such as mass shooters in the US, Breivik in Norway and the New Zealand mosque killer.

I am happy that for the first time in a couple of centuries Sweden no longer cowers behind the self-imposed stance of 'neutrality'. It is better to stand on the side of freedom against those who would destroy it.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Yes, that's why war and war-mongering and fascism should always be prevented in the 1st place.

We Austrians had our "fair share" of wars that killed tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions over the past 1000 of years, so I know what I am talking about.

That is why we must remain neutral like Switzerland and not pour oil into the Ukraine War nearby.

While you can commemorate the suffering of Austrians 340 years ago, you can also criticize the use of "1683" on weapons of serial killers such as mass shooters in the US, Breivik in Norway and the New Zealand mosque killer.

Yikes! You had a good thread before you started taking a pro-Russian empire position. There is no neutrality in this war, you have to pick a side. Do you want to be Russian or Austrian? The EU and NATO are the ones who give you the ability to remain Austrian and keep your culture, Russia wouldn't be so nice.

Your little historical story shows how incredibly important it is to rely on your like minded European allies instead of trying to be an isolationist. How can you oppose letting Ukrainians defend themselves and stay Ukrainian when you were allowed to defend yourselfs and stay Austrian through the kindness of others? Have you considered, that like the EU and NATO now, we're helping Ukraine for the same reasons Austria was helped then? Because, like the Turks and Arabs, the Russians have no intention of stopping there. We're all in this together.

Oh and by the way, Switzerland isn't neutral in the Ukraine war. They've been delivering weapons to Ukraine since the war started and a majority of Swiss voters support this.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Today, remembering the 1683 battle and liberation of Vienna from the Muslim invaders is seen "critical" by the Left, because it apparently glorifies anti-Muslim sentiment.

i really doubt current political issues and attitudes apply to ~400 years ago but, that's just me.

 

[ataraxia]

That is why we must remain neutral like Switzerland and not pour oil into the Ukraine War nearby.

It was good that other countries helped Austria repel invading Turks back then, but not OK for them to help Ukraine repel invading Russians now? What's the difference?

 

[joluoto]

Yesterday was the 340th anniversary of it.

10.000 defenders who remained within Vienna on 12 September 1683 withstood 2 months of siege from 150.000 invading Turks and Arabs.

They were decimated to 5.000 in the 2 months, but the city didn't fall to the invaders even as they plundered and burnt down the outskirts, killing 50.000 Austrian citizens in the suburbs.

The decisive battle came on September 12, 1683 - when a combined army of Poles, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Austrians, Germans, Saxons and Bavarians arrived in Vienna (70.000 strong) and defeated the 150.000 sieging Turks and Arabs.

Battle of Vienna - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

One of the big mistakes many makes is calling all the invading Ottoman Army "Turk" and "Arab". Large segments of the army was in fact levied from the Balkans, meaning there were many Christians among the invading Ottoman Army. Other important segments of the Ottoman army people are not talking about are the contributions of the vassal states, such as the Crimean Tatars, Upper Hungary, Transylvania, Wallachia and Moldavia. One of the aims the Ottomans had for their campaign was to get their vassal ruled Imre Tököly recognized as king of Hungary (the Habsburgs claimed the Hungarian throne by family ties to the last king of Hungary, despite only controlling a few border areas).

 

[ataraxia]

I don't think most have seen the somewhat obscure tv series from Turkey, 'Ertogal'. It provides some insight into the founding of the Ottoman empire that was powerful for centuries until the 19th century, eventually conquering the western Roman capital, Constantinopole. It should b viewed as what it is, a somewhat revealing propaganda cultural show.

I think the Turks have put out a few of these. There was one called "Magnificent Century" about the rise of the Ottomans in the 16th century. I saw a few episodes. I have to admit, the staging, costumes, scenery, and writing were breathtaking- many of the scenes were shot on site at the old Ottoman palace (which still exists in Istanbul- Topkapi): all the court intrigues, backstabbing, power plays, rivalries between siblings, fathers/sons, the women of the harem, etc.... I learned a lot about that history from the perspective of the Turks. Fascinating stuff.

 

[Rexedgar]

Bailed out by the Poles…

 

[ataraxia]

I don't think most have seen the somewhat obscure tv series from Turkey, 'Ertogal'. It provides some insight into the founding of the Ottoman empire that was powerful for centuries until the 19th century, eventually conquering the western Roman capital, Constantinopole. It should b viewed as what it is, a somewhat revealing propaganda cultural show.

Here is another Turkish movie about the sacking of Constantinople in 1453 by the Ottomans. The Byzantines also had asked for help from other European powers. But unlike what happened with the siege of Vienna almost 2 centuries later, that help was not forthcoming (lessons for today?):

 

[Craig234]

Resurrection: Ertugrul is centuries earlier, portraying the Turks as warring tribes of sheep herders, it's a very long series.

 

[ataraxia]

Resurrection: Ertugrul is centuries earlier, portraying the Turks as warring tribes of sheep herders, it's a very long series.

It's interesting- I have read a little about this period of history. It turns out those "warring tribes of sheep herders" ended up ruling basically the whole world for a few centuries: we know the Ottomans were ruling the near east, North Africa, and large parts of Eastern Europe for a long time. But I didn't know that they had a rival power to the east, the Safavid Persians- who also were of Turkic descent. There was a lot of warring and rivalry between them and the Ottomans. In fact, one of the times the Ottomans had invaded Vienna (I think it was before Kahlenberg ), one of the reasons they had to abandon the siege in a hurry is because the Safavids had invaded them to the east and they needed the troops to repel the eastern invasion.

Also, further in the east, the Mughal dynasty in India was basically a dynasty of Uzbek Turks who invaded south and conquered India. The Taj Mahal is a legacy of that dynasty. But they too were Turks.

To think there was a time when Turks ruled the world!

 

[Craig234]

 

[ataraxia]

Here is a more panoramic view including maps of the Ottoman, Safavid, and Mughal dynasties in the 16th century- all dynasties descended from Turkic "warring tribes of sheep herders" who were basically ruling the whole world.

 

[ataraxia]

This is an interesting book about the alliances between England's Elizabeth I, and the Ottoman Suleiman the Magnificent in the 16th century- to keep their common enemy, the Spanish (who were basically probably THE greatest world superpower at the time) at bay. It has a lot of their correspondences. Fascinating stuff!

https://www.amazon.com/Sultan-Queen-Untold-Story-Elizabeth/dp/0525428828