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Do Women who are Proudly Pro-Choice Announce when they've had an Abortion?

Interesting that you return to 'appreciate' a post that also is not what you were looking for as an answer to your thread (which you criticized many of us for). But probably one that is more in tune with your perspective?

Despite the insanity of your many posts, I'll respond again to simply state that JayDubya quote responded to me and as the person who created the thread and as a person who believes in good manners, I responded to his post - as I did at least once with every single person who posted in this thread. I also "appreciated" the posts of Minnie and Choiceone, both of whom chose to respond to my OP with comments about the content of thread and not out of a need to analyze me and my every word - also an indication that both have good manners and decency.

The obsessive need for attention that your posts generally display get tiring and boring pretty quickly. Please excuse me for neither appreciating them nor responding to them in perpetuity.

Have a good day.
 
Despite the insanity of your many posts, I'll respond again to simply state that JayDubya quote responded to me and as the person who created the thread and as a person who believes in good manners, I responded to his post - as I did at least once with every single person who posted in this thread. I also "appreciated" the posts of Minnie and Choiceone, both of whom chose to respond to my OP with comments about the content of thread and not out of a need to analyze me and my every word - also an indication that both have good manners and decency.

The obsessive need for attention that your posts generally display get tiring and boring pretty quickly. Please excuse me for neither appreciating them nor responding to them in perpetuity.

Have a good day.



Not obsessive...but if you are going to open up a 'discussion' thread, the expectation is that you will discuss. Of course no one can 'make' you discuss or take a position, but since people made honest efforts to explore your topic, I chose to try and get you to fulfill that expectation. It was pretty obvious that the thread didnt go in the direction you hoped and it would have been nice if you just admitted it....OR....actually discussed your own OP. The thread also got off track after you abandoned it.

You pretty much just ran away when things didnt go the way you wanted...I did feel the need to call that out.

Have a good day.
 
There is only this answer.

Because it is a personal medical decision.

This thread seems to be based on the obscure notion that people who are pro-choice are rooting for abortion. They are pro-choice because they want women to have the right to decide for themselves . Most prochoice women would not chose abortion. "NO" is a choice.

So the only answer is "because it is a personal medical decision". Some people let the world know of all their personal medical decisions, most are more discreet and tell select people. That goes with all medical procedures.
 
Not obsessive...but if you are going to open up a 'discussion' thread, the expectation is that you will discuss. Of course no one can 'make' you discuss or take a position, but since people made honest efforts to explore your topic, I chose to try and get you to fulfill that expectation. It was pretty obvious that the thread didnt go in the direction you hoped and it would have been nice if you just admitted it....OR....actually discussed your own OP. The thread also got off track after you abandoned it.

You pretty much just ran away when things didnt go the way you wanted...I did feel the need to call that out.

Have a good day.

Your posts really are simply trolling and baiting, nothing more. In every single post, you choose not to address the topic but to address me personally. I'm sick of it and I'm not going to risk getting infracted by responding to you in kind. I have no intention of discussing anything with you because you're not one of the people you talk about who've made an honest effort to explore the topic and you're pissed because I won't get down in the gutter with you and start discussing poster personalities and not the topic of the thread.

You don't like my views - that's abundantly clear - and as a result you do indeed have an obsessive need to analyze why I hold views you find unacceptable. I had no expectation about how this thread would go but I clearly stated that I expected some to take their usual tack, and you haven't disappointed.

And I didn't run away - I'm trying to ignore your constant baiting and trolling, which I now will do. Go ahead and have the last word and claim you've won - it's what baiters and trolls normally do.
 
Your posts really are simply trolling and baiting, nothing more. In every single post, you choose not to address the topic but to address me personally. I'm sick of it and I'm not going to risk getting infracted by responding to you in kind. I have no intention of discussing anything with you because you're not one of the people you talk about who've made an honest effort to explore the topic and you're pissed because I won't get down in the gutter with you and start discussing poster personalities and not the topic of the thread.

You don't like my views - that's abundantly clear - and as a result you do indeed have an obsessive need to analyze why I hold views you find unacceptable. I had no expectation about how this thread would go but I clearly stated that I expected some to take their usual tack, and you haven't disappointed.

And I didn't run away - I'm trying to ignore your constant baiting and trolling, which I now will do. Go ahead and have the last word and claim you've won - it's what baiters and trolls normally do.

I did address the topic, directly. Specifically. With several examples. You didnt like them and kept claiming myself and a couple of others were not actually answering your question.

Because you didnt like our responses, yet they were indeed directly addressing your OP.

Of course I dont like your views on this subject....so? You dont like mine....so?

You place your 'views' out here and ask about women's motives and psyches...and then dont want to see deeper analysis? Get your head out of the sand...it's all about how people feel....you clearly asked. Then your denials of our answers...like them or not is one thing but to deny they answered the question? That opened you up to finding out why you were denying it. Hey, it's the Internet....

And you give me the last word because you ended up having to avoid taking any position on your own OP when you were called out.....because we shot holes in it. If the purpose of your OP was truly to learn something about women and abortion, I hope you have.
 
Many people here consider abortion as simply a form of birth control. .

Just flipping back thru the thread to see if I actually persecuted you anywhere....and saw this.

I have never seen anyone on this forum say or even imply this. Do you have any quotes to support this?

(Of course you have said you'd ignore me but maybe someone else has seen it and can reply.)
 
This thread seems to be based on the obscure notion that people who are pro-choice are rooting for abortion. They are pro-choice because they want women to have the right to decide for themselves. Most prochoice women would not chose abortion. "NO" is a choice.

It's not really "obscure" or really even possibly incorrect when you look at the posts of the pro-abortion posters on this site and other such extremists in context. Population control is a common refrain, in between spreading misinformation and hate.
 
Your posts really are simply trolling and baiting, nothing more. In every single post, you choose not to address the topic but to address me personally. I'm sick of it and I'm not going to risk getting infracted by responding to you in kind. I have no intention of discussing anything with you because you're not one of the people you talk about who've made an honest effort to explore the topic and you're pissed because I won't get down in the gutter with you and start discussing poster personalities and not the topic of the thread.

You don't like my views - that's abundantly clear - and as a result you do indeed have an obsessive need to analyze why I hold views you find unacceptable. I had no expectation about how this thread would go but I clearly stated that I expected some to take their usual tack, and you haven't disappointed.

And I didn't run away - I'm trying to ignore your constant baiting and trolling, which I now will do. Go ahead and have the last word and claim you've won - it's what baiters and trolls normally do.

In that case, you might consider that the whole premise for this thread is trolling.

Because the answer is obvious. A woman has the right to privacy in her medical decisions.

The notion that since women (and men) fight to maintain the right does NOT mean they should not be as discreet as they want.

By the way, do you think a woman telling her story to a "pro-life" individual will change their minds? (be honest)

From a lot of what I have seen.....divulging would lead to some major harassment and ugly treatment by many pro-lifers. "Killer!You murdered your own baby?DO your living children know you murdered their sibling????

Seriously. Who would subject themselves to that?
 
In that case, you might consider that the whole premise for this thread is trolling.

Because the answer is obvious. A woman has the right to privacy in her medical decisions.

The notion that since women (and men) fight to maintain the right does NOT mean they should not be as discreet as they want.

By the way, do you think a woman telling her story to a "pro-life" individual will change their minds? (be honest)

From a lot of what I have seen.....divulging would lead to some major harassment and ugly treatment by many pro-lifers. "Killer!You murdered your own baby?DO your living children know you murdered their sibling????

Seriously. Who would subject themselves to that?

And clearly, again, you failed to understand the content of the OP and the rationale behind it.

1. I never said accessing abortion shouldn't be a private, personal matter. Having been a person who when working had was an Information and Privacy Coordinator as one of my responsibilities, I know full well the rights and privileges related to individual privacy. The OP does nothing or proposes nothing to alter privacy issues.

2. I never said those accessing abortion should be anything but discrete, if that's what they choose.

3. The intent of the OP was not to change minds - that's your misunderstanding of it or attempt to derail it. The intent of the OP was to find out if, and if not, why not, women who have abortions and are proud of making the decision to have an abortion for whatever reason share that information in a proud and open manner so that others who may be contemplating having a similar abortion for similar reason may feel comforted and more confident in their choice. After all, there are so many on these abortion threads who claim that abortion in a variety of circumstances is absolutely the right thing to do - so why hide it? There is not intent to change minds - that's your schtick not mine. I never try to change your mind or change other peoples' minds - I don't try to analyze them and claim they have some mental deficiency in their thinking, etc. as some here are obsessed in doing - I simply express my own personal view and that's it.

4. I made the comparison early on that many gay people, early in their struggle for acceptance, went through great harassment and ugly treatment by many heterosexual people. There's perhaps nothing more private and personal than an individual's sexuality. But because some brave and determined gay men and women spoke out and gave strength and encouragement to others being gay and living a gay lifestyle is now far more acceptable and gay people can more openly live their true lives. There are still some who harass them, but those ranks are dwindling daily. You might well ask yourself who would subject themselves to the kind of vile treatment, harassment, even physical violence? Some do, if they feel strongly enough about it.

That's the last time I'm going to explain it - many here have dealt with the issue as presented and I appreciate their comments and points of view even though most don't agree with mine. Others, not so much. So be it.
 
But again, you still seem to think that being "proudly pro-choice" means to be as proud or loud when they have had an abortion. No sense whatsoever.

For what purpose would she announce private medical information?


Are you under the impression that it is an easy decision? It is a stressful situation even for the most staunchly pro-choice. Why in the hell would she open herself up to an amazing amount of scrutiny. I think you forget that most pro-choice would chose "no" to abortion.

Most of the women who have abortions have other children. Did you read the threads where mothers were asked if they told their children that they murdered a sibling? Seriously, why would she announce when there are folks out there like that!!!!!!!!
 
Just flipping back thru the thread to see if I actually persecuted you anywhere....and saw this.

I have never seen anyone on this forum say or even imply this. Do you have any quotes to support this?

(Of course you have said you'd ignore me but maybe someone else has seen it and can reply.)

Actually I see pro-lifers proclaim it a lot.:(
 
A thread in the Sex and Sexuality forum got me thinking of this. In that thread, the OP pointed out a listing of "The 25 Rudest Things you Hear when You Announce You're Pregnant Again". So I started wondering if women announce to their friends that they've had an abortion. There are those on DP who are strong supporters of choice, who often claim that women who have an abortion for reasons related to lifestyle are smart to do so, such as not being able to afford a child or being in school and not ready, etc., so I was wondering if these supporters and the women's choices they support encourage women to be open and proud about their choice the way expectant mothers are when they are carrying a child they want.

Any thoughts on why accessing abortion is so closeted when so many are so supportive of the procedure?

Interesting how some have tried to put you on the defensive for asking this question. It's one I've considered many times myself. So I'm going to repeat what I said in post #4, that
I think there is an element of shame that requires privacy. The women I've known have generally not discussed having an abortion with anybody but their closest friends of many years.

Paschendale immediately responded to me by saying that we should just stop shaming women then, which is not at all what meant at all. I meant that these women experience shame within themselves.

I realize that not all women experience regrets and understand that women who are regretful can also still believe, sorrowfully, that it seemed the right decision at the time.

You've asked a good question. It's not enough to just keep saying that abortion is a private medical decision. Yes, it is. And nobody has to talk about his or her medical decisions...but people do sometimes talk about their surgeries to coworkers and neighbors and friends.

Women don't really talk about their abortions, I don't think, and I wonder why more women don't speak up and show solidarity. Everybody else is "out and proud," and the more women who share their stories, the more acceptable abortion will become.

So why don't they?
 
Actually I see pro-lifers proclaim it a lot.:(

Actually, no - with respect, that's just nonsense.

I've never seen a person who is pro-life proclaim that abortion is a form of birth control - I'd like to see one on here who has.

However, several pro-choice posters on this site (not this thread although some who have elsewhere have commented on this thread), have referred to chemical and early abortions as a form of birth control, not considering the growing life form inside to be human or even a developing human. You have to admit, if you're logical and honest, that the sole purpose of abortion is to stop a potential birth - that's birth control.
 
Interesting how some have tried to put you on the defensive for asking this question. It's one I've considered many times myself. So I'm going to repeat what I said in post #4, that
I think there is an element of shame that requires privacy. The women I've known have generally not discussed having an abortion with anybody but their closest friends of many years.

Paschendale immediately responded to me by saying that we should just stop shaming women then, which is not at all what meant at all. I meant that these women experience shame within themselves.

I realize that not all women experience regrets and understand that women who are regretful can also still believe, sorrowfully, that it seemed the right decision at the time.

You've asked a good question. It's not enough to just keep saying that abortion is a private medical decision. Yes, it is. And nobody has to talk about his or her medical decisions...but people do sometimes talk about their surgeries to coworkers and neighbors and friends.

Women don't really talk about their abortions, I don't think, and I wonder why more women don't speak up and show solidarity. Everybody else is "out and proud," and the more women who share their stories, the more acceptable abortion will become.

So why don't they?

Seriously, do you discuss all medical procedures you have with the world? The fact is, just like every other medical procedure, it is likely that the patient discussed it with the people she thought should know.

It is odd that you think this would be different for abortion.

If you can be logical for one minute - this is a stressful decision for any woman. What you may proclaim as "convenience" massively underrates the position some women are in. Barely supporting the children you have is a HUGE issue. Health considerations are a huge issue. Stopping school and limiting the opportunities to self support is a huge issue. Why would a woman want to discuss it with even more people and poor salt in the wound - let alone open oneself up to a "pro-life" individual calling you a murderer or telling children that mommy killed their sibling.
 
But again, you still seem to think that being "proudly pro-choice" means to be as proud or loud when they have had an abortion. No sense whatsoever.

For what purpose would she announce private medical information?

Are you under the impression that it is an easy decision? It is a stressful situation even for the most staunchly pro-choice. Why in the hell would she open herself up to an amazing amount of scrutiny. I think you forget that most pro-choice would chose "no" to abortion.

Most of the women who have abortions have other children. Did you read the threads where mothers were asked if they told their children that they murdered a sibling? Seriously, why would she announce when there are folks out there like that!!!!!!!!

I agree fully.

I told the story on one thread that a near and dear young lady friend of mine was raped in the parking lot after an evening class at a Catholic College. This young lady was very involved in the Catholic Youth Group at College and at her local Catholic church. She taught pre school catechism and led the youth mass during Mass on Sundays.

She became pregnant as a result of the rape and she decided to have an early abortion.
A few of the pro life people on this forum called her a murderer .... One said she was no young lady , they went on and on attacking her to get at me.

Seriously, ....there are pro life fanatics out there and a small few have performed criminal acts because they feel so strongly against abortion.

I would not want anyone I care about taking that kind of risk just because they made the best choice they were able to at the time.
 
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Actually, no - with respect, that's just nonsense.

I've never seen a person who is pro-life proclaim that abortion is a form of birth control - I'd like to see one on here who has.

However, several pro-choice posters on this site (not this thread although some who have elsewhere have commented on this thread), have referred to chemical and early abortions as a form of birth control, not considering the growing life form inside to be human or even a developing human. You have to admit, if you're logical and honest, that the sole purpose of abortion is to stop a potential birth - that's birth control.

I've spent alot of time in these threads and never remember ever seeing it referred to as birth control.

And I guess literally you are correct in that it stops a birth but it is not a 'birth control method' as ever recommended in the US to prevent *pregnancy* since obviously it occurs after the fact.

Please support your claim...if it happens surely you must know where to find one quote.
 
There is only this answer.

Because it is a personal medical decision.

This thread seems to be based on the obscure notion that people who are pro-choice are rooting for abortion. They are pro-choice because they want women to have the right to decide for themselves . Most prochoice women would not chose abortion. "NO" is a choice.

So the only answer is "because it is a personal medical decision". Some people let the world know of all their personal medical decisions, most are more discreet and tell select people. That goes with all medical procedures.

This is a really good answer. Think for a moment how many women in the past hid the fact that they had mastectomies when they had breast cancer or hysterectomies for whatever reason. They were ashamed of these operations, because people actually looked down on them or at least pitied them for not having natural breasts or because they no longer had basic sexual equipment.

Only after First Lady Betty Ford was forthright about her own mastectomy and publicly raised support for breast cancer victims did women even begin to lose their shame over mastectomies.

And yet, even today, most women who have mastectomies do not publicly announce that fact, and certainly not in a "proud" manner, because a medical operation is first of all private and second is not something to be proud or ashamed of.
 
Interesting how some have tried to put you on the defensive for asking this question. It's one I've considered many times myself. So I'm going to repeat what I said in post #4, that
I think there is an element of shame that requires privacy. The women I've known have generally not discussed having an abortion with anybody but their closest friends of many years.

Paschendale immediately responded to me by saying that we should just stop shaming women then, which is not at all what meant at all. I meant that these women experience shame within themselves.

I realize that not all women experience regrets and understand that women who are regretful can also still believe, sorrowfully, that it seemed the right decision at the time.

You've asked a good question. It's not enough to just keep saying that abortion is a private medical decision. Yes, it is. And nobody has to talk about his or her medical decisions...but people do sometimes talk about their surgeries to coworkers and neighbors and friends.

Women don't really talk about their abortions, I don't think, and I wonder why more women don't speak up and show solidarity. Everybody else is "out and proud," and the more women who share their stories, the more acceptable abortion will become.

So why don't they?

I think the mastectomy example that I gave above is a good example. If you had a mastectomy, would you instantly go out and tell all the people you know and people you are merely acquaintances with or absolute strangers? I wouldn't. It isn't their business. Nonetheless, some women might go public about it because they know that by doing so, they can help other women deal with their feelings about their mastectomies.

And many women do speak up and show solidarity by telling about their abortions on the web - I have already noted one of the key websites where they do this. And in conversations of groups of women over the issue of abortion, I have myself heard women who had abortions say that they had them and discuss the situations in which they made those decisions. Some women have even talked of this in legislatures full of self-righteous anti-choice men trying to pass anti-choice legislation, and it has been in the news. Back in the 1970s, before there was a web, I recall articles in MS magazine with such stories.

I'm guessing that the reason the question comes up is that, though pro-choice people have pro-choice friends and acquaintances, read publications with a liberal, pro-choice slant, and take an interest in pro-choice websites where women might tell their stories, most pro-life people who are sympathetic to anti-choice perspectives on abortion have friends and acquaintances with the same orientation they have, read publications slanted to that orientation, and take an interest in websites where women with that orientation might tell their stories or might not.

And while the pro-choice milieu and people in it are ordinarily not ashamed of abortion and don't regret it, pro-life people in a pro-life AND anti-choice milieu often are ashamed of it - and consequently cover it up or express shame or regret about it.

But I still don't understand why anyone would be proud of having an abortion, just as I don't understand why anyone would be proud of having a mastectomy, a vasectomy, treatment for erectile dysfunction, a colonoscopy, breast reduction, hair plugs, removal of serious birthmarks, removal of a decayed tooth, a root canal, or cosmetic tooth whitening, or indeed ever going to the doctor or dentist. Medical and dental treatment isn't something to be proud of.

If we were all perfect, no one would ever go to the doctor or dentist for any reason and medicine and dentistry would collapse as professions. Because the only reason anyone ever goes to a doctor or dentist is because he or she cannot solve a problem as well alone as he or she can by getting medical or dental treatment. But certainly, no one announces to most other people, "I went to the doctor!" as if it's an accomplishment.
 
Actually, no - with respect, that's just nonsense.

I've never seen a person who is pro-life proclaim that abortion is a form of birth control - I'd like to see one on here who has.

However, several pro-choice posters on this site (not this thread although some who have elsewhere have commented on this thread), have referred to chemical and early abortions as a form of birth control, not considering the growing life form inside to be human or even a developing human. You have to admit, if you're logical and honest, that the sole purpose of abortion is to stop a potential birth - that's birth control.

1) Everyone here knows that a human embryo or fetus is human and says so. Some of us don't believe it is "a" developing "human," because we don't think that an entity completely dependent on being biologically implanted in and attached to and using a person's body for its life and development can be reasonably considered separate from that body.

2) I for one don't think that the sole purpose of abortion is to stop a potential birth. I think that the purpose of abortion is to stop a pregnancy, and I think that the reason for stopping it is because one doesn't want to continue to be pregnant.
 
1) Everyone here knows that a human embryo or fetus is human and says so. Some of us don't believe it is "a" developing "human," because we don't think that an entity completely dependent on being biologically implanted in and attached to and using a person's body for its life and development can be reasonably considered separate from that body.

2) I for one don't think that the sole purpose of abortion is to stop a potential birth. I think that the purpose of abortion is to stop a pregnancy, and I think that the reason for stopping it is because one doesn't want to continue to be pregnant.

That seems like a pretty convoluted exercise in semantics. But I do appreciate the need to discount the base line meaning of actions in order to lessen the logical impact of the consequences of said actions.
 
That seems like a pretty convoluted exercise in semantics. But I do appreciate the need to discount the base line meaning of actions in order to lessen the logical impact of the consequences of said actions.

I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. If conjoined twins share one body, there is only one body. If the body is separated into two bodies each of which is self-sustaining, there are then two bodies. An embryo can't be separated from the woman's body and be self-sustaining even with medical aid, so I don't see two separate bodies of two humans. This is convoluted?

A woman who doesn't want to stay pregnant wants to end her pregnancy. Some future born kid is in the future, not the present. Yes, that future kid won't be in the future of the woman who has an abortion. But the point of the abortion is to stop the pregnancy, not kill the embryo. Hypothetically, if one could kill the embryo without stopping the bodily pregnancy, not one woman with an unwanted pregnancy would choose that option.

If the embryo could be removed and somebody else could adopt and take care of it, many women with unwanted pregnancies might just be happy to have it removed and not even think of what is done with the embryo afterward.

The only examples I can think of where a woman would care enough to prevent the continuation of the embryo as someone else's adoptee would be a woman impregnated via rape who did not want her chromosomes united with those of the guy who raped her or a woman who knew that her embryo had no chance of becoming anything but a seriously disabled fetus or fetal anomaly that would suffer extreme pain that medicine couldn't alleviate.
 
I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. If conjoined twins share one body, there is only one body. If the body is separated into two bodies each of which is self-sustaining, there are then two bodies. An embryo can't be separated from the woman's body and be self-sustaining even with medical aid, so I don't see two separate bodies of two humans. This is convoluted?
Sorry, but this is wrong.

If a pair of twins are sharing a heart for example, DNA tests would determine that it belongs to the body of one, but not the other. They are separate individuals even though they are connected and sharing resources.

This, like so much of your argument is simply something that you have made up. You are arguing what you wish, rather than what is.
 
A woman who doesn't want to stay pregnant wants to end her pregnancy. Some future born kid is in the future, not the present. Yes, that future kid won't be in the future of the woman who has an abortion. But the point of the abortion is to stop the pregnancy, not kill the embryo. Hypothetically, if one could kill the embryo without stopping the bodily pregnancy, not one woman with an unwanted pregnancy would choose that option.
Explain to me how you equate stopping a human beings life and not killing it?
 
Sorry, but this is wrong.

If a pair of twins are sharing a heart for example, DNA tests would determine that it belongs to the body of one, but not the other. They are separate individuals even though they are connected and sharing resources.

This, like so much of your argument is simply something that you have made up. You are arguing what you wish, rather than what is.

DNA tests would determine nothing, dude. They're identical twins. That's how they wound up conjoined. Are you serious?

Anyway, conjoined twins have a symbiotic relationship. The very meaning of the term dictates that neither is necessarily leeching off the other. They are either both reliant on each other for life, or they can in theory each survive on their own, assuming surgical technology is up to the challenge.

When one is leeching off the other, we have a different term for that: parasitic twins.

So if you want to take a twinning anomaly and compare it to abortion, you have to look at the fact that the woman's body certainly doesn't need a fetus to survive and in fact is drained by its presence, and the fetus is in no way capable of surviving without the woman. That is most closely analogous to parasitic twins, not conjoined.

And when there are parasitic twins, guess what we do, even if the parasitic one is sentient?

We remove them. For the physical well-being and the agency of the dominant twin who is being drained and impaired, we kill the parasitic one.

In the same way we have deemed that dominant twins have a right not to be imposed on by a parasitic twin, we have deemed women have a right not to be imposed on by a fetus.
 
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