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Do We Need National Health Care?

Do We Need National Health Care?


  • Total voters
    41
  • Poll closed .

taxedout

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Stace said:
You said:



Now, I am not the one fighting a national healthcare plan. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be in the camp of people that think your money should not go to pay for the health care of others, even though it already is. THAT is limiting another individual - you're getting what you feel is yours, and screw the little man that can't afford his own insurance.

I saw no discussion about limiting the maximum a doctor could make; all I saw was arguments saying that they would potentially earn less under a national plan.

You also said:



THAT is where the minimum came in, as I explained that there is already a system where others determine your worth.

So, I am perfectly on topic, thanks.


I restrict people by not wanting to give more of my money away ?
Wow !! I don't think I can even reply to that.

A minimum wage determines your worth ? No, the individual that has not prepared himself to offer an employer a service worthy of more than minimum wage, has determined his own worth.

And for the record,the topic was reducing the maximum earning potential of physicians.
 

Stace

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taxedout said:
I restrict people by not wanting to give more of my money away ?
Wow !! I don't think I can even reply to that.

A minimum wage determines your worth ? No, the individual that has not prepared himself to offer an employer a service worthy of more than minimum wage, has determined his own worth.

And for the record,the topic was reducing the maximum earning potential of physicians.

Actually, the topic is national healthcare, not the salary of doctors.
 

Jerry

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alphieb said:
I want a general idea of how you feel about our current Health Care situation. Please vote and explain.
Social Security is no longer the safety net is was meant to be. It has become a hammock.
 

Scarecrow Akhbar

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Stace said:
Actually, the topic is national healthcare, not the salary of doctors.


Like what? Certainly the first thing any nationalized health care program will do to control costs will be to control wages. Next thing you know, doctors will be in unions and picketing for higher wages and seniority benefits. And of course the restrictions on salary will further restrict the talent pool going into medicine.

How long do you think it will be before diagnosticians are replaced by computers? That will be a huge cost saver, though it might be a bit rough on the patients until the bugs are worked out.
 

Scarecrow Akhbar

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Stace said:
It is limiting them because you are being selfish and greedy,

No. One cannot be "selfish and greedy", not in the way you're trying to make it mean. The socialists are confused with the meaning of these words...any many others. "Selfish" means being concerned with affairs of the self, a perfectly reasonable attitude for any healthy person, and "greedy" means, more than anything, seeking to grab more than one's fair share of resources held in common. A man's wages aren't subject to the concept of greed, unless you're discussing the parasites and politicians seeking to take those wages away from the man who earned them.

"Selfish" is a good thing. It drives all commerce, all innovation, and all concepts of independence.

"greed" is a socialistic phenomenon, and you're right, it's evil. You're just not using the words correctly.

So, now that you have that straight, let me point out that in the context of nationalized socialistic medicine, the greedy people are the freeloaders, not the people who resent being taxed to pay for someone else's medicine. And the "selfish" ones, if we're using the connotation you desire to imply, are again, the freeloaders seeking to take that which isn't theirs.

Oh, did you're post say something past the first ten words? Let's see...

Stace said:
rather than helping out your fellow American citizens.

Well, don't know about Canada, or Britain, both of which have ruined their medical systems via socialism, but in America citizens helped each other on a voluntary basis. "Voluntary" means the individual choosing to help has an equal chance to choose to walk away without facing official sanctions, such as prison for not paying taxes improperly wasted on welfare for the useless.

Stace said:
Not everyone has the same good luck and fortune as you.

So? That means I'm supposed to put myself in the poorhouse? Oh, and it's not luck, it's ability. EVERYONE had an equal if not better opportunity at the start from me. I was born po' white trash and worked myself out of my roots. I have no sympathy whatsoever for people blaming their plights on bad roots. That simple bullshit excuse isn't my problem. The opportunities available to me were available to anyone.

Stace said:
Some people simply cannot afford health care, and yet, they make too much to qualify for Medicare/Medicaid. Some people become injured and/or disabled, and their insurance caps out, and then they're SOL. And then, say they get fired because they've been out of work so long...well, due to their injury/disability, they can no longer work, and now they can't even afford groceries, let alone health care.

It absolutely disgusts me that people whine about us not giving aid to the poor, starving people in Africa, or who don't care about the fact that millions of our tax dollars are rebuilding Iraq, and yet, we can't even help out the folks right here at home. Why should we help others...HOW can we help others...when we can't even help ourselves?

Yeah, that's what charities are for. You know, charity. Where a free man contributes (ie gives without coercion) his own money to causes that interest him. Under a charitable system, unwed pregnant mothers can find homes to gestate in peace, but drug addicts might find themselves out of options sooner. What a shame, eh?

Oh, and of course, you know full well that I'll never be caught complaining that our government doesn't spend enough money on people in foreign countries who already have their own governments to sponge off. Heck, if AIDS and malaria actually manage to de-populate Africa, I can see some fresh real estate potential...
 
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taxedout

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Stace said:
Actually, the topic is national healthcare, not the salary of doctors.


Well just in case you are having memory problems, here is my post, directed to bandaidwoman, to which you replied, and attempted to equate the limiting of physicians earnign potential to a minimum wage issue.

Originally Posted by taxedout
My mistake.
Not having been able to read all of your posts, I misunderstood.
I commend you for your years of dedication and hard work. It's not a walk in the park.

I'm sure you understand the implications of beaurocrats determining your worth, determining what is "good enough". Does this worry you at all, the fact that americans now believe they can decide what other people's labor is worth ?
Will they also be as willing to pay your debt? Do they care that you spent many years not being able to save for your future, and in fact went in the opposite direction ? Will they be willing to protect you from the lawyers that stand to gain the most out of malpractice claims. Will they pay your tail when you have to change jobs. Will your malpractice equal your anual salary? Will they care that you spend way too many hours at work, away form your family, while they do not?

I ask this in all seriousness, because of the serious implications for those involved. Will the physicians be the sacrificial lambs ? Once pandora's box is opened, you will not have a place to run to. The physicians have the least financial leverage in this debate, they will lose the most. I don't think there is any way around it.

What are your feelings on this ?



This was your reply.

EVERYONE that is a member of the workforce has what their labor is worth decided by another person. The politicians decide what the absolute minimum is, though in most places in this country, that minimum is hardly enough to sustain a person and their associated living costs. Your employer decides if you're only worth that minimum, or if you have enough value to them to justify a higher salary.

I can see how this has absolutely no connection to the issue of NHC, while the minimum wage does. :roll:


Say Stace, since you were talking about me being selfish and greedy, under a NHC plan, will you advocate that your anual costs be the same as the costs for a family of equal size, but earning three times as much ?
 

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Donkey1499 said:
Even though I'm in school for photography I also go out and do free-lance stuff. Like some old guy wants me to get pics of his Fords from the 1920's-30's era and he's gonna pay me $50 and hour to do it, plus pay for prints. It's not really much, but I get by. And the good thing is I don't really have to rely on anyone, I'm making my own way, not just sitting home watching Jerry Springer all day.

You do what you gotta do to get by... SOme people just figure it's easier to allow othersn to get them by....
 

Calm2Chaos

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Stace said:
First of all, your choice in language is not necessary or appropriate. Secondly, no one is trying to turn anything into a welfare state, or turn anything into a free ride. Thirdly, those programs you mention? Not everyone qualifies for them. Finally, I sincerely hope that you are never in a position where you can't afford health care or groceries or any other basic necessities, because obviously if you don't even want to help others with those things, how could you accept them from others?

I won't find myself in that position because I wil get a job... 2 if I have to. If you can't find a job your not looking. Might not be a lot of VP positions out there but wal mart is always hiring... I find what I can till i find what I want. But why work for it if the goverment is wiling to make the rest of the country pay for things anyway. I should quite now....
 

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Liberals believe the Government should take care of your every need from cradle to grave..........Conservatives believe you should take personal repsonbility for you actions yourself.........
 

Stace

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Calm2Chaos said:
I won't find myself in that position because I wil get a job... 2 if I have to. If you can't find a job your not looking. Might not be a lot of VP positions out there but wal mart is always hiring... I find what I can till i find what I want. But why work for it if the goverment is wiling to make the rest of the country pay for things anyway. I should quite now....

And what if you are disabled to such an extent that you cannot work, even as a greeter at Wal Mart? You guys are completely missing my point, and normally, I would love to sit here and basically beat my head against a brick wall while I keep explaining, but unfortunately, right now, I have bigger and more important things to worry about, namely the health of my own child. So y'all have fun.
 

Scarecrow Akhbar

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Stace said:
And what if you are disabled to such an extent that you cannot work, even as a greeter at Wal Mart? You guys are completely missing my point, and normally, I would love to sit here and basically beat my head against a brick wall while I keep explaining, but unfortunately, right now, I have bigger and more important things to worry about, namely the health of my own child. So y'all have fun.

Then the people that care will generously donate (and "donate" means of their own free will) their time and money to help them.

It's that freedom of choice thing so many people just can't understand. Most people think it only applies to the one area where no choice is allowed, the non-existent freedom to "choose" to kill unborn children.

Since it IS my body, I should have the freedom to choose what to do with he money my body earns. If it's not my money, if other people have first claim on it, then I'm nothing more than a slave.

But, hey, I'm not stopping anyone from volunteering, am I? Or is the angst on the left due to the fact that not even they are willing to volunteer, so they're pretending it's a "duty" and they're more righteous than the rest of us because they're trying to make us all slaves to their silly ideals?

My ideals are better, thank you.
 

Goobieman

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Scarecrow Akhbar said:
It's that freedom of choice thing so many people just can't understand. Most people think it only applies to the one area where no choice is allowed, the non-existent freedom to "choose" to kill unborn children.
Thats rght.
What we're seeing here is proof positive that liberals only want you to have the choices that they approve of.
 

Calm2Chaos

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Stace said:
And what if you are disabled to such an extent that you cannot work, even as a greeter at Wal Mart? You guys are completely missing my point, and normally, I would love to sit here and basically beat my head against a brick wall while I keep explaining, but unfortunately, right now, I have bigger and more important things to worry about, namely the health of my own child. So y'all have fun.

I would go on long term disability.. or maybe ss....or some other program dependoing on my situation.

But I see no reason to effect an entire population for a "what if" is what i am saying
 

taxedout

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Stace said:
And what if you are disabled to such an extent that you cannot work, even as a greeter at Wal Mart?


The disabled and NHC are two different issues.
 

taxedout

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mnpollock said:
She's training for audiology. And where did I say that I didn't think doctors deserved good incomes? I think that 80k-100k is a VERY good income that is WELL above the natn'l average. I am just confused why you think everydoctor should be making a quarter of a million a year, I think thats excessive.


Who are you to say what is good enough for someone else ?
Did you fund their training ? Did you do the studying and hours of training in their place ? Did you know that the average physician will put in roughly 25 average work years in school and training, and accumulate huge debt in getting to the place where they can finally make some money, usually into their thirties ? Do you care, or do you just care about your expenses.

Since you have spent a great deal of time speaking on behalf of the medical experience and knowledge of your wife, the "doctor", you still haven't answered my question. Is audiology a MD subspecialty or does it simply require a certificate of accredidation. Last I checked, audiology was a certificate program, available to candidates holding a masters degree.
Have you been somewhat disingenuous in this discussion ? I would hate to think so.
 
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