Do We Need National Health Care?

[ChristopherHall]

what? Like maybe you're thinkin that insurance companies don't offer long term care policies?

You've obviously come aboard late in the game.

Our dear friend, Donkey1499, is dead set against paying for health insurance for the uninsured. What he fails to realize is that he already is. He's paying higher healthcare premiums because a large percent of nearly 50 million Americans seek medical care and never pay the bill. Hospitals eat the loss and simply make up the difference with higher costs on services. This in turn cases our insurane premiums to rise. He fails to understand that a national health insurance program would be cheaper. We're not talking about a full government healthcare system, only a nationally subsidized health insurance program. No government hospitals or doctors.

Well, after he realized that he already does pay for the uninsured he argued that he doesn't want to pay for anyone's health care, he would strictly like to pay for his own all by himself. I explained to him that if he really wants to do that, he should drop his health insurance and pay all healthcare costs out of his own pocket and stop mooching off his current health insurance system. He made out as though he could afford it with health savings accounts. I explained that a serious long term injury would deplete his account and leave him broke.

So now you're caught up. Later.

 

[Goobieman]

If I have to prove God to convince you that you have a moral obligation to your neighbor you're already a lost cause.

You quoted the Bible, not me.
Tell me why I have to pay for what you think is moral.

Look, you already do in skyrocketing premiums. You'd pay less if the uninsured had access to a national health insurance system.

That I am already paying for it in no way means that I should be paying for it.

Still waiting for you to tell me why other people have a right to my money.

 

[taxedout]

Still waiting for you to tell me why other people have a right to my money.

Haven't met many people who can turn down the idea of receiving someone else's money, especially when some politician promises it to them.
Anything can be justified in one's mind when getting money for nothing is the issue. In fact, they can convince themselves that you are the bad guy for not wanting to give it to them.

Funny how money works that way.

 

[taxedout]

Well, after he realized that he already does pay for the uninsured he argued that he doesn't want to pay for anyone's health care, he would strictly like to pay for his own all by himself. I explained to him that if he really wants to do that, he should drop his health insurance and pay all healthcare costs out of his own pocket and stop mooching off his current health insurance system.

Buying your own insurance is funding your own health care.
They sell you a policy, betting that you will pay in more than you take out.
You buy the policy, betting you will get more than you put in, not unlike buying stocks.
No one forces the insurance company to sell you the policy.
Buying a policy is voluntary.
No one forces their neighbors to pay for their policy.

 

[Stace]

Buying your own insurance is funding your own health care.
They sell you a policy, betting that you will pay in more than you take out.
You buy the policy, betting you will get more than you put in, not unlike buying stocks.
No one forces the insurance company to sell you the policy.
Buying a policy is voluntary.
No one forces their neighbors to pay for their policy.

But, because there ARE plenty of people that pay in more than they take out, that surplus is used to cover the care for others. Which is exactly what ChristopherHall is getting at. And for those that take out more than they put in....others are paying for their care.

 

[BWG]

Buying a policy is voluntary.
No one forces their neighbors to pay for their policy.

Umm, maybe not if you live in Massachusetts.

A Massachusetts plan that blends the Democratic goal of universal health care with the Republican philosophy of personal responsibility could be a model for politicians nationwide - and a presidential launching pad for its chief sponsor, GOP Gov. Mitt Romney.

Residents will be required to provide proof of their health insurance policies on their state income tax returns.

Source

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

You've obviously come aboard late in the game.

Our dear friend, Donkey1499, is dead set against paying for health insurance for the uninsured.

Well, of course. That makes eminent sense. They're not my problem, I shouldn't be required to subsidize whatever bad decisions they made in life, either their conscious decision to not cover themselves, or their other decisions that prevent them from having the money to pay for their own coverage.

But if you're so worried about them, there's no reason why you can't voluntarily contribute to a fund to support them. Right?

I mean, this is America. It's supposed to be the land of the free, not the land of the freeloader.

What he fails to realize is that he already is. He's paying higher healthcare premiums because a large percent of nearly 50 million Americans seek medical care and never pay the bill. Hospitals eat the loss and simply make up the difference with higher costs on services. This in turn cases our insurane premiums to rise.

Well, that's easily fixed. Let hospitals reject financially irresponsible patients. After all, credit checks in this day and age take far less time than the average waiting room stay. Simply take the financial information first, then kick 'em out if they have a history of not paying.

He fails to understand that a national health insurance program would be cheaper.

What I propose is even cheaper.

While we're at it, let's keep a national registry of lawyers that sue hospitals, and blacklist them from services. People like Edwards should be given the opportunity to fully enjoy the world they helped to create.

We're not talking about a full government healthcare system, only a nationally subsidized health insurance program. No government hospitals or doctors.

Sorta naive about what happens in the real big world out there, aren't ya? If the government spends the money, the government calls the shots.

The reason the health care industry in this country is as screwed up as it is is government interference. That's an obvious fact.

Well, after he realized that he already does pay for the uninsured he argued that he doesn't want to pay for anyone's health care, he would strictly like to pay for his own all by himself. I explained to him that if he really wants to do that, he should drop his health insurance and pay all healthcare costs out of his own pocket and stop mooching off his current health insurance system.

Confused on how health insurance works, are ya? Not surprising, given your adoration of government.

He made out as though he could afford it with health savings accounts. I explained that a serious long term injury would deplete his account and leave him broke.

That's what health insurance is for. :roll:

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Umm, maybe not if you live in Massachusetts.

A Massachusetts plan that blends the Democratic goal of universal health care with the Republican philosophy of personal responsibility could be a model for politicians nationwide - and a presidential launching pad for its chief sponsor, GOP Gov. Mitt Romney.

Residents will be required to provide proof of their health insurance policies on their state income tax returns.

Source

Yet once again a reason why no one from Massachusssetts should be elevated to national office.

What business is it of the state's if a person has health insurance? Clearly a blatant violation of privacy.

 

[Goobieman]

But, because there ARE plenty of people that pay in more than they take out, that surplus is used to cover the care for others. Which is exactly what ChristopherHall is getting at. And for those that take out more than they put in....others are paying for their care.

When I buy health insurance, I CHOOSE to help pay for someon elses health care.

CHOICE v NO CHOICE

See the difference?

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Canada's system isn't the model we are looking to. So the comparison isn't valid.

In addition, I have family in Canada, the stories you hear are the few bad stories politicized for this issue. I could use my father-in-law's death as a story to condemn the American system.

According to you anyway, the papers say different, the government says different.

When did we specify a country model for UHC? I must have missed that part. So what country are we modeling the UHC from?

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Ok according to your sources the doctors make roundabouts 125k-175k average (averaging everything). Now keep in mind that EVERYBODY in canada makes less than people in the US, so logically wouldn't doctor's also make less than their US counterparts by the same degree? I fail to see the point you are trying to make with saying that canada's doctors only make 80-100k a year. I'm sure that there are Canadian doctors who are speciallists who make 500k a year as well.

I didn't think it was that hard to understand. The pay difference is not that great though. Autoworkers in canada make the same as doctors. The canadain pay scale is not 50% less. This is also after 3 years in practice. A good docotor with a good practice is going to make considerably more. UHC is driving down what doctors make, they are having a shortage of doctors. Why take on the debt needed to become a doctor knowing your going to have that debt for decades longer then your northern counterparts. Not to mention the fact that even with a doctor shortage Canadian medical schools continue to raise tuition (Which has nothing to do with UHC as far as I can tell)

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Yep. They got by without health insurance, automobiles, telephones, microwaves, bath tubs, dish washers, wash machines, driers, computers, etc.

Times change friend. Today people need health insurance. If you don't think you need it...go without it.

I have gone without it... Hell I just picked it up recently because I hit 38 and thought it was a good time. For a number of years i opted out of having it because I didn't think I needed it.

Again I see no reason to pay more and get less.... destroy the R&D in this country..... Insure the lazy and chronically unemployed.....etc etc ....

 

[taxedout]

I think it is time we faced the facts.
Government intervention will save money, create competition to save more money, lower our combined tax and health care payments, provide better, more efficient services, turn out more highly qualified doctors without reducing their salaries, cause people to enjoy such good health that they get up and join the rest of the productive society, and never, never attempt to manipulate the citizenry with the massive beaurocratic purse strings.

Man, in that case, I'm all for it.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

I think it is time we faced the facts.
Government intervention will save money, create competition to save more money, lower our combined tax and health care payments, provide better, more efficient services, turn out more highly qualified doctors without reducing their salaries, cause people to enjoy such good health that they get up and join the rest of the productive society, and never, never attempt to manipulate the citizenry with the massive beaurocratic purse strings.

Man, in that case, I'm all for it.

WOW ... your right... I forgot the government (The doer of all things efficient) would manage this little project. I look forward to the days of government control of my health and welfare. I see no reason to continue to work or stay employed. I believe I will now live on the streets occasionally leaving my box to go to the doctors you are so now gracefully paying for.. THANKS

:rofl

 

[Indy]

I didn't think it was that hard to understand. The pay difference is not that great though. Autoworkers in canada make the same as doctors. The canadain pay scale is not 50% less. This is also after 3 years in practice. A good docotor with a good practice is going to make considerably more. UHC is driving down what doctors make, they are having a shortage of doctors. Why take on the debt needed to become a doctor knowing your going to have that debt for decades longer then your northern counterparts. Not to mention the fact that even with a doctor shortage Canadian medical schools continue to raise tuition (Which has nothing to do with UHC as far as I can tell)

Ok, I'm sorry but now I'm gonna have to ask for a source that says autoworkers make 100k a year.

 

[taxedout]

Ok, I'm sorry but now I'm gonna have to ask for a source that says autoworkers make 100k a year.

My brother is an auto worker and has been known to make in that range
with sufficient overtime.

I guess you don't care what the docs make as long as you get the service ?
Very generous of you.

BTW, What specialty is your wife training for ?

 

[The Mark]

Currently, health care in the US is a problem.

The cost to the patient is going up. Because of this, the cost to insurance companies is going up. As a result, some insurance companies (all?) are more likely to resist paying for someone’s health care through various fine print issues and technicalities. This effects doctors and hospitals, because many people cannot pay the high costs without insurance, and many doctors and hospitals, being the kind of people who enter the medical field, do not charge the complete cost to people (sometimes no charge at all). This means that the hospitals and doctors have to raise their charges to patients to make up the difference.

You notice the circular process?

In addition, another factor is causing doctors (and hospitals?) to raise the amount they charge to patients. Malpractice insurance. Now, I'm not sure about other states, but hear in PA, malpractice insurance costs some doctors $100,000 a year. That is alot. The cause of this is malpractice lawsuits which have no legal basis, are most likely to get thrown out of court, etc.

However, no matter how frivolous a lawsuit, the doctors still have to show up in court, wasting time they could have spent treating people and earning money. And, no matter how frivolous, and even if the cases do get thrown out, their malpractice insurance companies have to pay court costs and the prosecuting lawyers bill--about 50-100k (or more) per lawsuit. Obviously, this would raise costs for the insurance companies. In turn, they would have to raise their prices for malpractice insurance.

So there are many factors raising the cost of health care to people.

Some of the blame rests on the insurance companies, some on the people who file frivolous malpractice lawsuits, some on the lawyers who prosecute those lawsuits (they get paid by the insurance companies even if they lose), some on doctors (though not as much, IMO), some on hospitals (also not as much IMO), and some on people who have no insurance.

Oh, I forgot to mention that factor. When people who have no insurance go to the hospital, many times (every time?) the hospital/doctors treat them anyway and then shoulder the burden of the costs from that. Another factor that raises their rates.

In short, the US has a health care problem. Something needs to be done to fix it.

Any ideas?

 

[taxedout]

In addition, another factor is causing doctors (and hospitals?) to raise the amount they charge to patients. Malpractice insurance. Now, I'm not sure about other states, but hear in PA, malpractice insurance costs some doctors $100,000 a year. That is alot. The cause of this is malpractice lawsuits which have no legal basis, are most likely to get thrown out of court, etc.

However, no matter how frivolous a lawsuit, the doctors still have to show up in court, wasting time they could have spent treating people and earning money. And, no matter how frivolous, and even if the cases do get thrown out, their malpractice insurance companies have to pay court costs and the prosecuting lawyers bill--about 50-100k (or more) per lawsuit. Obviously, this would raise costs for the insurance companies. In turn, they would have to raise their prices for malpractice insurance.

$100,000 dollars of post tax money is a lot to pay, especially now that folks making greater than $150,000 are considered the "ultra rich" thanks to carefully crafted political campaigns. What doc could survive this under a nationalized system ?

Will tort reform be a part of NHC ? Will the tax payers shoulder the burden of covering this expense for the doctors ? Will the docs just be hung out to dry, causing a massive shortage ? Will they be exempt from suits ?
Do you expect lawyers to pass legislation that limits lawyer reimbursements ?
Will citizens give up their ability to seek civil dammages in exchange for free care ? (the VA system). Do people expect doctors to give a rat's patooty
about people that are limiting their ability to earn, or will mediocrity rule the day?

Should we expect lawyer's salaries to become government regulated, in order to contain costs for the goood of society ? ( like that would happen)
How about bankers, should we capitate their reimbursements, after all, they influence society to a very great extent. What happens to the private insurance companies ? Their massive resources go a long way on wall street,
and in the influence they hold over congress. Will they just roll over and die ?

These question all need careful thought before jumping blindly into supporting NHC.

 

[Donkey1499]

How much interest do you think you would make on the $16 a paycheck you would ordinarily be spending for a national health insurance program?

Like I said before, I'd put more than just "$16" in the bank.

 

[Indy]

My brother is an auto worker and has been known to make in that range
with sufficient overtime.

I guess you don't care what the docs make as long as you get the service ?
Very generous of you.

BTW, What specialty is your wife training for ?

She's training for audiology. And where did I say that I didn't think doctors deserved good incomes? I think that 80k-100k is a VERY good income that is WELL above the natn'l average. I am just confused why you think everydoctor should be making a quarter of a million a year, I think thats excessive.

Oh, so your brother has made 100k a couple of times with a bunch of overtime. That's hardly the same thing as getting a 100k salary that the doctors recieve. Nice try but you are bending the facts now.

 

[taxedout]

She's training for audiology. And where did I say that I didn't think doctors deserved good incomes? I think that 80k-100k is a VERY good income that is WELL above the natn'l average. I am just confused why you think everydoctor should be making a quarter of a million a year, I think thats excessive.

Oh, so your brother has made 100k a couple of times with a bunch of overtime. That's hardly the same thing as getting a 100k salary that the doctors recieve. Nice try but you are bending the facts now.

Audiology, is that a subspecialty of the AMA ?
Is she an ENT resident ?
Does audiology require an MD/DO degree ?

My brother can make about 70-75 K consistantly, and work less hour than
a doctor. Comparatively, 80K is hardly rewarding, considering the time you have to spend training and the debt you have to accumulate to become a doctor.

Nice of you to dicide what someone else's labor is worth.
Maybe an arbitrary panel can decide what salary is adequate for your profession.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Ok, I'm sorry but now I'm gonna have to ask for a source that says autoworkers make 100k a year.

I'm not going through looking for that page again. you want it you find it. You don't believe that some autoworkers with OT can make 90 - 100k then don't believe it.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

She's training for audiology. And where did I say that I didn't think doctors deserved good incomes? I think that 80k-100k is a VERY good income that is WELL above the natn'l average. I am just confused why you think everydoctor should be making a quarter of a million a year, I think thats excessive.

Oh, so your brother has made 100k a couple of times with a bunch of overtime. That's hardly the same thing as getting a 100k salary that the doctors recieve. Nice try but you are bending the facts now.

And you are smearing them. They are in both in the same general range. The BASE salary strating in a plant in canada is 24.44 and hour. SO yes with a few years under your belt and a little OT 100k or in that area is very possible.

Trying to nail down what canadian doctors make is not the easiest thing. The main problem is that fee's and cost and taxes vary so much from province to province, sometimes a difference of 30%.

 

[bandaidwoman]

I know a dental hygenist who makes 80 k a year, although the average is 64K

http://www.techniciansalaries.com/profession/dental-hygienist.html


Not saying he or she does not derserve it, a pediatrician makes just a little more in Georgia, taking calls, weekend coverage, holiday coverage and is allowed to make absolutely no mistake and you can bet your *** he is not just working 40 hours a week.

 

[taxedout]

I know a dental hygenist who makes 80 k a year, although the average is 64K

http://www.techniciansalaries.com/profession/dental-hygienist.html


Not saying he or she does not derserve it, a pediatrician makes just a little more in Georgia, taking calls, weekend coverage, holiday coverage and is allowed to make absolutely no mistake and you can bet your *** he is not just working 40 hours a week.

I take it from some of your previous posts that you are a PA ?
The 80-100K range(or more) would easily fall within your range of income.
If the doctors get reduced to this, because some feel that this is ample reimbursement for their life's effort, and clearly above the national mean, what will happen to your salary ? Are you concerned that government beaurocrats, focused on re-election, will be dictating what the compensation for your years of hard work will be ? They will decide what is "good enough" for you.

I think it is entirely wrong for the citizens of this country to decide what someone else's labor and sacrifice is worth, especially when they are the benefactors of the service provided, and they didn't put forth the years of sacrifice and dedication.