Do We Need National Health Care?

[bandaidwoman]

I take it from some of your previous posts that you are a PA ?
The 80-100K range(or more) would easily fall within your range of income.
If the doctors get reduced to this, because some feel that this is ample reimbursement for their life's effort, and clearly above the national mean, what will happen to your salary ? Are you concerned that government beaurocrats, focused on re-election, will be dictating what the compensation for your years of hard work will be ? They will decide what is "good enough" for you.

I think it is entirely wrong for the citizens of this country to decide what someone else's labor and sacrifice is worth, especially when they are the benefactors of the service provided, and they didn't put forth the years of sacrifice and dedication.

I'm a physician.

 

[taxedout]

I'm a physician.

My mistake.
Not having been able to read all of your posts, I misunderstood.
I commend you for your years of dedication and hard work. It's not a walk in the park.

I'm sure you understand the implications of beaurocrats determining your worth, determining what is "good enough". Does this worry you at all, the fact that americans now believe they can decide what other people's labor is worth ?
Will they also be as willing to pay your debt? Do they care that you spent many years not being able to save for your future, and in fact went in the opposite direction ? Will they be willing to protect you from the lawyers that stand to gain the most out of malpractice claims. Will they pay your tail when you have to change jobs. Will your malpractice equal your anual salary? Will they care that you spend way too many hours at work, away form your family, while they do not?

I ask this in all seriousness, because of the serious implications for those involved. Will the physicians be the sacrificial lambs ? Once pandora's box is opened, you will not have a place to run to. The physicians have the least financial leverage in this debate, they will lose the most. I don't think there is any way around it.

What are your feelings on this ?

 

[Stace]

My mistake.
Not having been able to read all of your posts, I misunderstood.
I commend you for your years of dedication and hard work. It's not a walk in the park.

I'm sure you understand the implications of beaurocrats determining your worth, determining what is "good enough". Does this worry you at all, the fact that americans now believe they can decide what other people's labor is worth ?
Will they also be as willing to pay your debt? Do they care that you spent many years not being able to save for your future, and in fact went in the opposite direction ? Will they be willing to protect you from the lawyers that stand to gain the most out of malpractice claims. Will they pay your tail when you have to change jobs. Will your malpractice equal your anual salary? Will they care that you spend way too many hours at work, away form your family, while they do not?

I ask this in all seriousness, because of the serious implications for those involved. Will the physicians be the sacrificial lambs ? Once pandora's box is opened, you will not have a place to run to. The physicians have the least financial leverage in this debate, they will lose the most. I don't think there is any way around it.

What are your feelings on this ?

EVERYONE that is a member of the workforce has what their labor is worth decided by another person. The politicians decide what the absolute minimum is, though in most places in this country, that minimum is hardly enough to sustain a person and their associated living costs. Your employer decides if you're only worth that minimum, or if you have enough value to them to justify a higher salary.

 

[taxedout]

EVERYONE that is a member of the workforce has what their labor is worth decided by another person. The politicians decide what the absolute minimum is, though in most places in this country, that minimum is hardly enough to sustain a person and their associated living costs. Your employer decides if you're only worth that minimum, or if you have enough value to them to justify a higher salary.

...And every member of the wokforce decides for themself whether the employer's compensation is worthy of their labor.

Not every member of the work force has a national government beaurocracy deciding what their maximum earning ability should be.

Of course, by your statement it is easy to see where you stand on the issue. You obviously don't care if you limit another individual, as long as you get what you feel is yours. Very generous of you.

 

[bandaidwoman]

My mistake.
Not having been able to read all of your posts, I misunderstood.
I commend you for your years of dedication and hard work. It's not a walk in the park.

I'm sure you understand the implications of beaurocrats determining your worth, determining what is "good enough". Does this worry you at all, the fact that americans now believe they can decide what other people's labor is worth ?
Will they also be as willing to pay your debt? Do they care that you spent many years not being able to save for your future, and in fact went in the opposite direction ? Will they be willing to protect you from the lawyers that stand to gain the most out of malpractice claims. Will they pay your tail when you have to change jobs. Will your malpractice equal your anual salary? Will they care that you spend way too many hours at work, away form your family, while they do not?

I ask this in all seriousness, because of the serious implications for those involved. Will the physicians be the sacrificial lambs ? Once pandora's box is opened, you will not have a place to run to. The physicians have the least financial leverage in this debate, they will lose the most. I don't think there is any way around it.

What are your feelings on this ?

I don't like our system as it is. It is broken. We need to salvage it. We have a lot to learn from socialized medicine...negatives and positives. Part of me favors a national insurance....just getting rid of the bureaucratic nonsense with all the different paperwork and rules will be more cost effective. Medicare and medicaid is already a form of it,(national insurance for elderly and poor) though wrought with bureaucracy, it is the same from patient to patient. The rules and regulations change from one private insurer to another.

Uninsured patients are bankrupting our local hospitals as insured patients don't necessarily pick up the difference anymore.

However, a socialized medical system won't work for the simple reason that americans will not give up the right to sue, so that's out. (Can't expect a doc to pay for huge malpractice premiums on a civil servant's salary as you correctly sumised ) In addition, we are too big and inhomogenous.

The Canadian medical system is pretty good until you get very sick and the "limit" has been spent. They have a back door.... us.....which is why they work. (For instance, a 8 year old with a leukemia that is 80% curable could not be treated in Canada until the new year came around due to the budget deficit in her area hospital. She was in a blast crisis and waiting 3 months was sure death. Her mother took her 3 hours south to Dartmouth Hithcock medical center in New Hampshire, and had her treated successfully with induction therapy within 2 weeks. I know because I was the medical student o nthe case.) That is just one small sample.

However, socialized medicine has it right when it allocates care to children and infants, and denies protracted, futile care in those who are elderly. (50% of all medicare dollars are spent on the last year of a elderly person's life.) Right now, if you want your 99 year old mother to have full artificial resuscitation and life suuppport costing $10,000 a day in the ICU, you have every right to it...and trust me, this happens.

Don't know what the answer is but just the acknowledgment that we are not the best system in the world will be a first step........

 

[The Mark]

This is only vaguely related to the topic on this forum, but I have a suggestion.

I think that anyone who is interested in the difference between socialistic and capitalistic government systems should read this book.

It's not a study on this subject, it's a Sci-fi book. But it is well written and I found it interesting. It might not be realistic, but some among you may find it informative.

It is downloadable in E-book form from this site for free. Title is "Freehold".

http://www.webscription.net/free/

 

[Stace]

...And every member of the wokforce decides for themself whether the employer's compensation is worthy of their labor.

Not every member of the work force has a national government beaurocracy deciding what their maximum earning ability should be.

Of course, by your statement it is easy to see where you stand on the issue. You obviously don't care if you limit another individual, as long as you get what you feel is yours. Very generous of you.

Sounds more like your position than mine.

Who said anything about a maximum? I was talking about MINIMUM wage. And no, not everyone has the luxury of deciding whether or not the pay is worth it - sometimes, that may be the only job available to them, and they have to take what they can get.

 

[bandaidwoman]

Massachusetts Sets Health Plan for Nearly All

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/05/u...imes Topics/People/B/Belluck, Pam&oref=slogin

Massachusettes is going to provide nearly universal health coverage. Thus, our country's experimentation with some sort of universal health coverage has begun. Perhaps we shall see how it succeeds or fails over the next 5-10 years?

 

[taxedout]

Part of me favors a national insurance....just getting rid of the bureaucratic nonsense with all the different paperwork and rules will be more cost effective. Medicare and medicaid is already a form of it,(national insurance for elderly and poor) though wrought with bureaucracy, it is the same from patient to patient.

You touched upon a few points that the public needs to consider before it jumps head first into NHC.

Will it be willing to give up it's right to sue. You say no, and I agree. Where does that leave you, the physician if your earnings are reduced ? Out in the cold, unable to be insured, unable to practice, holding large ammounts of debt. Will the public have pity on you? Somehow I don't think that their concern for you matches your concern for them.

What about those waits, limits and budgetary problems ? Is the public ready to accept them too. The answer seems to be denial that the problem exists.

What about the rationing, that you have described so well in your description of terminal care for the elderly. Who in this country is ready to accept that? Sorry grandma, you have to die now because my government won't pay.

What about work hours. Will you (meaning the collective you) be willing to work the same long hours, taking care of emergencies around the clock?
Will you be willing to forsake your family life and free time for civil servant wages?

About the medicare and medicaid systems being wrought with beaurocracy, once the gov controls all of it, would you expect the red tape to grow or decline. We only have beaurocratic precident as a barometer.
Based on that, I'd say it's going to rain.

Lastly, you are correct in that the socialist systems of canada and europe
work, because of our system functioning as their system of last resort.
Remove the US from the equation, and wait to see the fall out.

Yes there are problems, and the governmental beaurocracy has added its fair share to say the least. Does that necessarily mean that an all out government takeover is the solution ? Yes it sounds like the quick and easy solution, given the publics nearly deistic perceptions of our government's abilities, but is it possible that it will only make a bad situation worse ?

There are many issues to think about. I am willing to bet that you physicians will be the first Marie Antionettes of the revolution. I don't think you will be shown any mercy. Read some of the above posts concerning people's perceptions of what you deserve to be compensated. Add to that the money and influence the banking/insurance industry has in government and media.
I can already hear the crowd chanting "off with her head".

Just something to think about.

 

[taxedout]

Sounds more like your position than mine.

Who said anything about a maximum? I was talking about MINIMUM wage. And no, not everyone has the luxury of deciding whether or not the pay is worth it - sometimes, that may be the only job available to them, and they have to take what they can get.

Sounds like my position ? Did I miss something? Did I advocate limiting someone's earning potential ?

Who said anything about maximums ? I believe the discussion was about reducing the maximum that a physician could earn, under a NHC plan( you know,NHC, the topic of this thread). Then you jumped in with an extraneous minimum wage argument. I believe you were the only one talking about minimum wages at the time. Please try to stay on topic.

 

[Stace]

Sounds like my position ? Did I miss something? Did I advocate limiting someone's earning potential ?

Who said anything about maximums ? I believe the discussion was about reducing the maximum that a physician could earn, under a NHC plan( you know,NHC, the topic of this thread). Then you jumped in with an extraneous minimum wage argument. I believe you were the only one talking about a minimum wages at the time. Please try to stay on topic.

You said:

You obviously don't care if you limit another individual, as long as you get what you feel is yours. Very generous of you.

Now, I am not the one fighting a national healthcare plan. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be in the camp of people that think your money should not go to pay for the health care of others, even though it already is. THAT is limiting another individual - you're getting what you feel is yours, and screw the little man that can't afford his own insurance.

I saw no discussion about limiting the maximum a doctor could make; all I saw was arguments saying that they would potentially earn less under a national plan.

You also said:

I'm sure you understand the implications of beaurocrats determining your worth, determining what is "good enough". Does this worry you at all, the fact that americans now believe they can decide what other people's labor is worth ?

THAT is where the minimum came in, as I explained that there is already a system where others determine your worth.

So, I am perfectly on topic, thanks.

 

[bandaidwoman]

You touched upon a few points that the public needs to consider before it jumps head first into NHC.

Will it be willing to give up it's right to sue. You say no, and I agree. Where does that leave you, the physician if your earnings are reduced ? Out in the cold, unable to be insured, unable to practice, holding large ammounts of debt. Will the public have pity on you? Somehow I don't think that their concern for you matches your concern for them.

What about those waits, limits and budgetary problems ? Is the public ready to accept them too. The answer seems to be denial that the problem exists.

What about the rationing, that you have described so well in your description of terminal care for the elderly. Who in this country is ready to accept that? Sorry grandma, you have to die now because my government won't pay.

What about work hours. Will you (meaning the collective you) be willing to work the same long hours, taking care of emergencies around the clock?
Will you be willing to forsake your family life and free time for civil servant wages?

About the medicare and medicaid systems being wrought with beaurocracy, once the gov controls all of it, would you expect the red tape to grow or decline. We only have beaurocratic precident as a barometer.
Based on that, I'd say it's going to rain.

Lastly, you are correct in that the socialist systems of canada and europe
work, because of our system functioning as their system of last resort.
Remove the US from the equation, and wait to see the fall out.

Yes there are problems, and the governmental beaurocracy has added its fair share to say the least. Does that necessarily mean that an all out government takeover is the solution ? Yes it sounds like the quick and easy solution, given the publics nearly deistic perceptions of our government's abilities, but is it possible that it will only make a bad situation worse ?

There are many issues to think about. I am willing to bet that you physicians will be the first Marie Antionettes of the revolution. I don't think you will be shown any mercy. Read some of the above posts concerning people's perceptions of what you deserve to be compensated. Add to that the money and influence the banking/insurance industry has in government and media.
I can already hear the crowd chanting "off with her head".

Just something to think about.

You have articulated the feelings of most physicians very well.

I have not interjected about physician salaries because I am one until now.

There is no doubt we do well financially but we do put in the hours. I don't believe I would put in the 85-90 plus hours a week that I do for just 80K when my husband was making 90K as a controls technician without a college degree.

I'm not greedy, but I did have a student loan that equals a huge mortgage after graduating medical school (And I was lucky to have gone to college on a full scholarship or I would have owed half a million).

I regularly work 36 hours straight at least once or twice a week and most holidays but patients don't see that unless they are the ones I see at 2:00 in the morning. However, it is still the best job around and I feel the most intellectually stimulating (this comes from a ex inorganic chemist) and most personally rewarding. I do sacrifice family time which is why my husband quit his job to be a stay at home dad. Granted, there are some docs who don't put in such hours (dermatologists etc.) but as a whole, those of us in Internal medicine, general surgery, etc. do put in godawful hours.

And of course, we are not allowed to make any mistakes.:mrgreen: (granted, other professions are in the same quandry such as pilots but their hours are regulated.)

In fact, some of the new guidelines limiting residency hours to 80 a week is very artificial because most will go on to work more than that when going into private practice. (Unlike the urban myth that we lead a life of riley afterwards.)

With that said, I believe we need some kind of insurance reform where hard working middle class families don't get increasingly pushed out into the uninsured arena as more and more companies forgoe providing this as an employee benefit. Not sure what the answer is. The Massachussettes plan is an interesting experiment (it fines companies for not providing health insurance although the fine is miniscule .....less than the yearly premium the companies would pay for just one employee ) ( I pay $8,000 a year for everyone of my employees to be insured by Humana PPO)

 

[bandaidwoman]

( I pay $8,000 a year for everyone of my employees to be insured by Humana PPO)

To clarify, that is $8,000 per person per year and I have over 30 employees.

 

[Calm2Chaos]

You said:



Now, I am not the one fighting a national healthcare plan. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be in the camp of people that think your money should not go to pay for the health care of others, even though it already is. THAT is limiting another individual - you're getting what you feel is yours, and screw the little man that can't afford his own insurance.

So me not wanting to pay another persons way is limiting them? Wow that is bizzar to me. I work and pay into medicare/medicaid already. not sure why I should have to give more...

Lets just get this socialist country started. Everybody makes the same, no rich or poor, no growth, inevation or drive. What the hell should I strive for, If I don't want to do it for myself I can count on you doing it for me....

 

[Donkey1499]

So me not wanting to pay another persons way is limiting them? Wow that is bizzar to me. I work and pay into medicare/medicaid already. not sure why I should have to give more...

Lets just get this socialist country started. Everybody makes the same, no rich or poor, no growth, inevation or drive. What the hell should I strive for, If I don't want to do it for myself I can count on you doing it for me....

Then we'll become a miserable socialist **** hole like France.

Did you hear about that worker who drove his car into all those protesters in France. Dude, I laughed my *** off. This guy was trying to get to work, but he couldn't because all these protesters (who ought to be at work) were in his way. So he started to drive thru em'. The protesters got pissed and tried to yank him out of his car. Man, I should go find a link to this story, I'll be right back. :mrgreen:

 

[Donkey1499]

Alright, here's a link to the story I told about above:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,190943,00.html

 

[Stace]

So me not wanting to pay another persons way is limiting them? Wow that is bizzar to me. I work and pay into medicare/medicaid already. not sure why I should have to give more...

Lets just get this socialist country started. Everybody makes the same, no rich or poor, no growth, inevation or drive. What the hell should I strive for, If I don't want to do it for myself I can count on you doing it for me....

It is limiting them because you are being selfish and greedy, rather than helping out your fellow American citizens. Not everyone has the same good luck and fortune as you. Some people simply cannot afford health care, and yet, they make too much to qualify for Medicare/Medicaid. Some people become injured and/or disabled, and their insurance caps out, and then they're SOL. And then, say they get fired because they've been out of work so long...well, due to their injury/disability, they can no longer work, and now they can't even afford groceries, let alone health care.

It absolutely disgusts me that people whine about us not giving aid to the poor, starving people in Africa, or who don't care about the fact that millions of our tax dollars are rebuilding Iraq, and yet, we can't even help out the folks right here at home. Why should we help others...HOW can we help others...when we can't even help ourselves?

 

[Calm2Chaos]

It is limiting them because you are being selfish and greedy, rather than helping out your fellow American citizens. Not everyone has the same good luck and fortune as you. Some people simply cannot afford health care, and yet, they make too much to qualify for Medicare/Medicaid. Some people become injured and/or disabled, and their insurance caps out, and then they're SOL. And then, say they get fired because they've been out of work so long...well, due to their injury/disability, they can no longer work, and now they can't even afford groceries, let alone health care.

It absolutely disgusts me that people whine about us not giving aid to the poor, starving people in Africa, or who don't care about the fact that millions of our tax dollars are rebuilding Iraq, and yet, we can't even help out the folks right here at home. Why should we help others...HOW can we help others...when we can't even help ourselves?

:rofl :rofl

You do make me laff.... You know sh1t about me... let's get that straight. But because I expect people to help themselves i am selfish and greedy. OK.. First... STOP trying to destroy my country and turn it in to a useless welfare state.

We expect you to get off your lazy *** and work. Are there programs out there now for those underinsured or uninsured. Are there laws protecting people who are injured? Are there programs out there for those that fal on hard times? MORE MORE MORE... lets turn every American into a charity case living in a welfare state... would that make you happy? Far as I am concerned we shouldn't be aiding anyone. Keep the money in this country to expand industry and development. Create new jobs with this so people have work,... And if there is a few dollars left over at the end of the year give it to the red cross for disaster relief....

 

[Donkey1499]

It is limiting them because you are being selfish and greedy, rather than helping out your fellow American citizens. Not everyone has the same good luck and fortune as you. Some people simply cannot afford health care, and yet, they make too much to qualify for Medicare/Medicaid. Some people become injured and/or disabled, and their insurance caps out, and then they're SOL. And then, say they get fired because they've been out of work so long...well, due to their injury/disability, they can no longer work, and now they can't even afford groceries, let alone health care.

It absolutely disgusts me that people whine about us not giving aid to the poor, starving people in Africa, or who don't care about the fact that millions of our tax dollars are rebuilding Iraq, and yet, we can't even help out the folks right here at home. Why should we help others...HOW can we help others...when we can't even help ourselves?

What does one do to a horse with a broken leg? You shoot it dead. There, that solves all the problems about poverty.


:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: I'm joking!!!!!!!!!

 

[Donkey1499]

:rofl :rofl

You do make me laff.... You know sh1t about me... let's get that straight. But because I expect people to help themselves i am selfish and greedy. OK.. First... STOP trying to destroy my country and turn it in to a useless welfare state.

We expect you to get off your lazy *** and work. Are there programs out there now for those underinsured or uninsured. Are there laws protecting people who are injured? Are there programs out there for those that fal on hard times? MORE MORE MORE... lets turn every American into a charity case living in a welfare state... would that make you happy? Far as I am concerned we shouldn't be aiding anyone. Keep the money in this country to expand industry and development. Create new jobs with this so people have work,... And if there is a few dollars left over at the end of the year give it to the red cross for disaster relief....

Seeing your text just brought a tear to my eye. Beautiful, C2C, it was just geniously beautiful. :boohoo: :mrgreen:

 

[Calm2Chaos]

Seeing your text just brought a tear to my eye. Beautiful, C2C, it was just geniously beautiful. :boohoo: :mrgreen:

Thanks... I am glad the words touched you...LOL

At some point in time work became a bad word...LOL Hey ... I am lazy as the next guy, but i Know I have to go out everyday and earn a living to take care of my family and responsibilities. I do this so I can buy the things I want and get my kids the things they want. I have been without work once... I for the first and only time used unemployment until I found a new job. I didn't however make unemployment my new career. You don't need to have a college degree to make money in this country.

 

[Donkey1499]

Thanks... I am glad the words touched you...LOL

At some point in time work became a bad word...LOL Hey ... I am lazy as the next guy, but i Know I have to go out everyday and earn a living to take care of my family and responsibilities. I do this so I can buy the things I want and get my kids the things they want. I have been without work once... I for the first and only time used unemployment until I found a new job. I didn't however make unemployment my new career. You don't need to have a college degree to make money in this country.

Even though I'm in school for photography I also go out and do free-lance stuff. Like some old guy wants me to get pics of his Fords from the 1920's-30's era and he's gonna pay me $50 and hour to do it, plus pay for prints. It's not really much, but I get by. And the good thing is I don't really have to rely on anyone, I'm making my own way, not just sitting home watching Jerry Springer all day.

 

[Stace]

:rofl :rofl

You do make me laff.... You know sh1t about me... let's get that straight. But because I expect people to help themselves i am selfish and greedy. OK.. First... STOP trying to destroy my country and turn it in to a useless welfare state.

We expect you to get off your lazy *** and work. Are there programs out there now for those underinsured or uninsured. Are there laws protecting people who are injured? Are there programs out there for those that fal on hard times? MORE MORE MORE... lets turn every American into a charity case living in a welfare state... would that make you happy? Far as I am concerned we shouldn't be aiding anyone. Keep the money in this country to expand industry and development. Create new jobs with this so people have work,... And if there is a few dollars left over at the end of the year give it to the red cross for disaster relief....

First of all, your choice in language is not necessary or appropriate. Secondly, no one is trying to turn anything into a welfare state, or turn anything into a free ride. Thirdly, those programs you mention? Not everyone qualifies for them. Finally, I sincerely hope that you are never in a position where you can't afford health care or groceries or any other basic necessities, because obviously if you don't even want to help others with those things, how could you accept them from others?

 

[Navy Pride]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/05/u...imes Topics/People/B/Belluck, Pam&oref=slogin

Massachusettes is going to provide nearly universal health coverage. Thus, our country's experimentation with some sort of universal health coverage has begun. Perhaps we shall see how it succeeds or fails over the next 5-10 years?

And individuals getting that health care will have to pay for it....How you forget mino details........:roll:

 

[BWG]

Nearly half of American doctors say they support government action to establish national health insurance, a factor that may be crucial to future efforts to reform the current health care system.

webmd

Nearly two-thirds (64%) of Massachusetts physicians favor single-payer national health insurance,

National health insurance (NHI) received majority support from physicians of virtually every age, gender and medical specialty – even among surgeons a plurality supported NHI.

Eighty-nine percent believed that it is the responsibility of society, through its government, to provide everyone with good medical care, regardless of their ability to pay.

Physicians also favored physician payment under a salary system (56.8%), and would be willing to accept a reduction in fees for a reduction in paperwork (67.1%).

Harvard

Physicians for a National Health Program is a nonprofit organization of physicians, medical students, and other health care professionals that support a national health insurance (NHI) program. Specifically, we believe that a single-payer system (where the government finances health care, but keeps the delivery of health care to mostly private control) is the only solution to solving the United States' many health care problems.

pnhp


Bandaidwoman, as a physician, says what I have said many times before, MONEY is not the ONLY reason for one to pursue a particular career.

"I regularly work 36 hours straight at least once or twice a week and most holidays but patients don't see that unless they are the ones I see at 2:00 in the morning. However, it is still the best job around and I feel the most intellectually stimulating (this comes from a ex inorganic chemist) and most personally rewarding."