DO I support racism?[W:433]

[joko104]

Re: DO I support racism?

You sure did run out of arguments pretty quick.



Business owners are people the last time I checked.

That's statement has no relevancy to the topic. So were slave owners you claimed exactly what you claim.

 

[Henrin]

Re: DO I support racism?

That's statement has no relevancy to the topic. So are terrorists.

Ah...yeah. :blink:

When you start a business you don't just somehow stop being a person nor do you somehow lose your rights.

 

[joko104]

Re: DO I support racism?

We're not talking the Metro area, we're talking about the richest black county in the entire United States.

That's a lie. There is no "black county" in the United States. Black County is in the West Midlands in the UK.

 

[RiverDad]

Re: DO I support racism?

Its not an accusation. Its fact. You literally rationalized that someone who assaults Jews isn't a bigot if they do so while drunk - as on example. I searched your messages on terms and what I posted about your messages are not accusation. They are facts.

Are you serious? My claiming that drunk people are known to rave about all sorts of crazy things, like a drunk Mel Gibson ranting about Jews, is what you're interpreting as me defending violence against Jews?

Nope, that's not good enough. You don't get to twist words to suit your own furies. If you're going to accuse me of defending Neo Nazis and "defending violence against Jews" then you need to actually have evidence that I've done so.

Back up all of your accusations or withdraw your accusations or I will report it to a mod.

 

[joko104]

Re: DO I support racism?

Ah...yeah. :blink:

When you start a business you don't just somehow stop being a person nor do you somehow lose your rights.

You do not prove a right exists by asserting it exists and then demand to have it. There is no right anywhere in the Bill of Rights or U.S. Constitution to engage in racial discrimination in commerce. If you claim there is, quote it.

 

[joko104]

Re: DO I support racism?

Are you serious? My claiming that drunk people are known to rave about all sorts of crazy things, like a drunk Mel Gibson ranting about Jews, is what you're interpreting as me defending violence against Jews?

Nope, that's not good enough. You don't get to twist words to suit your own furies. If you're going to accuse me of defending Neo Nazis and "defending violence against Jews" then you need to actually have evidence that I've done so.

Back up your accusation or withdraw your accusation or I will report it to a mod.

Do what you gotta do. Your message does not mention Mel Gibson nor did you use the word "rave," but "tirade" in an overall claim that if a person goes into a racist tirade when drunk that doesn't reflect the person he is. Bull****.

Two guys get drunk, drag a gay or black to his death - and then claim it was just the liquor doing that. Hey, in KKK country that was valid defense you present - depending upon who was murdered. Liquor does not mask a person's true self - it makes it come more out and in less guarded ways.

Your messages have collectively become grotesque racist slurs.

I think this should move to the partisan sandbox in the basement. You are calling minorities - including on this forum - part of a collective race of murders and criminals as to where YOU have taken this thread YOU started.

For which you declare all "conservatives" agree with you and all "liberals" make excuses for the murderous blacks.

This thread should be flushed downstairs to the partisan sandbox in my opinion. This isn't a debate. It is just you raging grotesque racism and trying to attach partisanship to it making it worse.

 

[Henrin]

Re: DO I support racism?

You do not prove a right exists by asserting it exists and then demand to have it. There is no right anywhere in the Bill of Rights or U.S. Constitution to engage in racial discrimination in commerce. If you claim there is, quote it.

I have already told you how this works. You need to explain how the action is in violation of someones rights or otherwise there is a right to commit the act. As for your argument, please review the first and thirteenth amendment.

 

[Gina]

Re: DO I support racism?

Are you serious? My claiming that drunk people are known to rave about all sorts of crazy things, like a drunk Mel Gibson ranting about Jews, is what you're interpreting as me defending violence against Jews?

Nope, that's not good enough. You don't get to twist words to suit your own furies. If you're going to accuse me of defending Neo Nazis and "defending violence against Jews" then you need to actually have evidence that I've done so.

Back up all of your accusations or withdraw your accusations or I will report it to a mod.

Do what you gotta do. Your message does not mention Mel Gibson nor did you use the word "rave," but "tirade" in an overall claim that if a person goes into a racist tirade when drunk that doesn't reflect the person he is. Bull****.

Two guys get drunk, drag a gay or black to his death - and then claim it was just the liquor doing that. Hey, in KKK country that was valid defense you present - depending upon who was murdered. Liquor does not mask a person's true self - it makes it come more out and in less guarded ways.

Your messages have collectively become grotesque racist slurs.

I think this should move to the partisan sandbox in the basement. You are calling minorities - including on this forum - part of a collective race of murders and criminals as to where YOU have taken this thread YOU started.

For which you declare all "conservatives" agree with you and all "liberals" make excuses for the murderous blacks.

This thread should be flushed downstairs to the partisan sandbox in my opinion. This isn't a debate. It is just you raging grotesque racism and trying to attach partisanship to it making it worse.

Moderator's Warning:

You two and joko and JayDubya, the ping pong matches end now. Cut the personal comments and baiting. Stick to the topic: Suppose someone sets up an organization that advocates for a constitutional amendment that allows any and all businesses to refuse service to people based on their race. Does this scenario alone mean I support racism? Also, if you see a violation, report it, don't discuss it. It's baiting. Now, onward, shall we. Everyone, that is.

 

[joko104]

Re: DO I support racism?

I have already told you how this works. You need to explain how the action is in violation of someones rights or otherwise there is a right to commit the act. As for your argument, please review the first and thirteenth amendment.

It is absurdly false to argue there was no harm in the 100 year history of racial segregation.

Your view of "how it works" is just wrong.

Courts, including the Supreme Court, have long held that the government can set rules that are for the benefit of society. Therefore, YOU have the burden of proof to show that there is a harm to not allowing commercial bigotry, discrimination and prejudices based on race, gender, religious beliefs, disabilities and so forth.

The 1st and 13th amendment do not guarantee a right to commercial segregation and bigotry. Once again, quote it if you claim otherwise. You assert a right that does not exist - and never has.

You don't have to leave your house. The Internet allows you to buy whatever you need. The government doesn't force anyone to eat with "black" people or use the same restroom. Outlawing commercial bigotry and racism doesn't harm anyone in the slightest. Can't cause anyone to starve. Can't cause anyone to be stranded. Doesn't prevent anyone from doing anything other than being a professional racist for profit in commerce.

 

[joko104]

Re: DO I support racism?

Ah...yeah. :blink:

When you start a business you don't just somehow stop being a person nor do you somehow lose your rights.

Nor does some someone cease to be a person when that person walks into a restaurant because the person is the wrong race or gender.

 

[Henrin]

Re: DO I support racism?

Nor does some someone cease to be a person when that person walks into a restaurant because the person is the wrong race or gender.

Yeah, so? No one has the right to the labor, property, or association of another.

 

[joko104]

Re: DO I support racism?

Yeah, so? No one has the right to the labor, property, or association of another.

Everything you just mentioned is regulated by government, though very limited in terms of association.


Child labor laws and a requirement to have a license before being a doctor or lawyer or plumber or doing hair. Property is a big word you didn't specify but, in fact, a 13 year old can not buy liquor or a gun (personal property) and limited to who can buy and operate certain businesses - ranging from casinos to gun shops. There can be guilt by association both civility and criminally in terms of conspiracy laws. People are greatly limited in terms of usage of personal (possessions) and real (land) property. The list is almost endless.

At the local, county, state and federal level there are hundreds of thousands of laws regulations and restriction "labor and property" rights. "Commerce" isn't association. It is commerce. What is NOTABLE is that the ONE rule you pick out of hundreds of thousands is your declaring you have a right to "associate" only with white people when you eat out if you can find a white- only restaurant - and you want someone to have the right to open that restaurant building a business specifically to cater to and profit from racism.

Many, many small towns only have 1 gas station, 1 small grocery store, and 1 small hardware store - and often then to have a very high percentage of one "race" or another. In your model of "freedom" - the majority would literally starve people who aren't their race out of town. The freedom to run people out of town due to their race, ethnicity or religion. Could run off disabled people that way too. Or pull out the primary voting records and run off all Democrats. Can't buy gas, can't buy propane, can't buy food, can't eat at a restaurant, can't buy lumber...

And this is how you WANT it to be, declaring this is "freedom." It's not. It is returning to racial segregation in which the majority oppresses the minority economically, in commerce and in housing.

A business owner does not have to "associate" with a customer. But it cannot have different menu prices depending upon a person's race either - which obviously claim would be another "freedom" a person has in your logic.

In your reasoning, a the lone gas station in a 95% white remote West Texas town for which the next station is 35 miles could have a sign that gasoline is $3.47 a gallon for white people, $8.72 for Latinos and Asians, and $28.43 per gallon for "Negros." Because that is what "Freedom" means to you. Freedom of the majority to oppress the minority in housing, economics, all necessities of life and commerce.

 

[Lursa]

Re: DO I support racism?

Let's see if we can find an instance where this factor is falsified. We should not be able to find ANY instances where wealthier blacks have a higher crime rate than poorer whites. That would be impossible.

Why don't we start with the easiest data point - the richest cluster of black households in the entire United States and see how crime plays out in that community. This brings us to Prince George's County, Maryland. Wikipedia informs us "Prince George's County is the wealthiest African American-majority county in the United States." It also informs us that "As of 2006, the county reportedly contains the highest crime rate for the Washington Metro area, comparable to Baltimore" Let's drill down a bit and see what this report is telling us: "In 2006, nearly 16 of every 100,000 citizens in Prince George's were murdered, up from 15 in 1990." Now, with a median household income in 2008 of $71,696 there should not exist any jurisdictions with a disproportionate white population, a lower median household income and a lower murder rate. The overall homicide rate in the US is 4.7 per 100,000. Unfortunately I can't find a Census table which let's me rank order the variables so I'm taking a random walk through the internet and I land on Lewiston, Maine. This town has a median household income of (2011) $37,102, about half of Prince George's County, and is 89.3% white and has a murder rate of 2.8 per 100,000, nearly 1/6th the murder rate of the wealthiest black community in the United States.

No, economics doesn't explain away the higher murder rate.

What? Total amount of $$$ wont offset a large (#s) poor community. There could be 3 billionnaires and 2 million poor people. The only thing we know is that the majority of people in the county are black. ...we dont know how that $$ is distributed. It could be 75% of the $$ belongs to 2% of the population.

 

[joko104]

Re: DO I support racism?

Yeah, so? No one has the right to the labor, property, or association of another.

And, in fact, everyone has a right to the labor and property of others. That's what taxes are. A right to other people's labor. That is what deed and zoning restrictions are. That is what an easement for a sidewalk and utilities are. It is, generally, a person's right to set the price of their labor and anti-discrimination laws do not prevent that. They only set a VERY limited set of prohibited discriminations in terms of rates of labor being set on race, gender, ethnicity.

 

[joko104]

Re: DO I support racism?

What? Total amount of $$$ wont offset a large (#s) poor community. There could be 3 billionnaires and 2 million poor people. The only thing we know is that the majority of people in the county are black. ...we dont know how that $$ is distributed. It could be 75% of the $$ belongs to 2% of the population.

That is how it is in DC - and those 3 billionaires and nearly all the millionaires are probably white. The reason the pick DC for statistics is DC is probably the most unequally distributed wealth between the "races" in the country - by far - for all the politicians and lobbyist etc there.

Other factors come into play such as gun laws, police presence - which tends to heavily be disproportion in the wealthy - usually meaning white - parts of town.

 

[sangha]

Re: DO I support racism?

And RiverDad defends Neo Nazis, and condemns women, blacks, defends violence against Jews...

Total Stormfront messages and reasoning. While I cannot express my actual sentiments, I and we should recognize what his messages are collectively - and what this thread he started really is about.

RD didn't start this thread

I did

 

[JayDubya]

Re: DO I support racism?

RD didn't start this thread

I did

Yeah.

Did you mean for it to become to go-to place for randomly accusing other posters of racism? That's what it has become.

 

[Kreton]

This question is being asked for an concrete argument relating to another thread.

Suppose someone sets up an organization that advocates for a constitutional amendment that allows any and all businesses to refuse service to people based on their race.

Does this scenario alone mean I support racism?

Supporting a constitutional amendment that would give businesses the choice to refuse service to any person for any reason (including race) would not make you a racist. It would make the business owner to chooses to refuse service based on race a racist, and if you spend money at that establishment then you would be supporting racism at that point. However supporting a businesses right to choose who they do business with does not.

 

[USViking]

Re: DO I support racism?

Any asshole who is hyped up enough over this to advocate a constitutional amendment
does support racism and is a racist.

 

[sangha]

Supporting a constitutional amendment that would give businesses the choice to refuse service to any person for any reason (including race) would not make you a racist. It would make the business owner to chooses to refuse service based on race a racist, and if you spend money at that establishment then you would be supporting racism at that point. However supporting a businesses right to choose who they do business with does not.

Just to be clear - I didn't ask if that makes one a racist; I asked if it is supporting racism. It's a subtle distinction.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: DO I support racism?

Any asshole who is hyped up enough over this to advocate a constitutional amendment
does support racism and is a racist.

Of course! I mean, I advocate for upholding the First Amendment, which automatically means I am an "asshole" and I automatically agree with Fred Phelps that "God Hates Fags," despite the fact that I'm an atheist.

Sure! That makes sense. :doh

Just to be clear - I didn't ask if that makes one a racist; I asked if it is supporting racism. It's a subtle distinction.

But as evidenced by your like above, it's not a distinction that matters to you.

 

[Removable Mind]

Supporting a constitutional amendment that would give businesses the choice to refuse service to any person for any reason (including race) would not make you a racist. It would make the business owner to chooses to refuse service based on race a racist, and if you spend money at that establishment then you would be supporting racism at that point. However supporting a businesses right to choose who they do business with does not.

Well, that is in fact, what would occur.

And it's obvious that even when the point is framed exactly has you've posted it. There are a number of people in DP who support such a constitutional amendment, which does in fact allow business owners to be, at the very least, bigoted, but also racists. They choose to call it an act of "freedom", which is currently denied by thing like "The Civil Rights Act of 1964", etc, etc,...

 

[Boo Radley]

Supporting a constitutional amendment that would give businesses the choice to refuse service to any person for any reason (including race) would not make you a racist. It would make the business owner to chooses to refuse service based on race a racist, and if you spend money at that establishment then you would be supporting racism at that point. However supporting a businesses right to choose who they do business with does not.

I understand your distinction but disagree. I think such an amendment distinctly opens the door for racist behavior, and supports what would undoubtedly lead to more racist activies. Laws actual send messages to the population. One that allows racism in a subtle way sends the message that it's ok. I think in a civil so society, it's appropriate to set protections against such overt racist acts. We can still be racists, but we can't let it spill over in to harming others. And denying service would inevitly lead to harm somewhere at some time.

 

[Kreton]

I understand your distinction but disagree. I think such an amendment distinctly opens the door for racist behavior, and supports what would undoubtedly lead to more racist activies. Laws actual send messages to the population. One that allows racism in a subtle way sends the message that it's ok. I think in a civil so society, it's appropriate to set protections against such overt racist acts. We can still be racists, but we can't let it spill over in to harming others. And denying service would inevitly lead to harm somewhere at some time.

I would agree that it would do harm to restrict public services, for instance electricity or water, however a private business should be allowed to choose who they do business with. At least at a legal level. Now if Billy's Burgers declares they will no longer serve black people or hispanics they will lose business. Not only from that race but many others who disagree with their practice. Not to mention the hoards of protesters who will impede their business. It likely wouldn't last. But the business owner should be able to choose and refuse their customers. Noone should be forced to do business with anyone. Society can fix this with consumer choices on these things. Forcing Billy to serve everyone keeps Billy open, possibly making tons of money, that his racist ass is probably using to fund all kinds of racist agendas which is then not really helping anyone.

 

[Kreton]

Well, that is in fact, what would occur.

And it's obvious that even when the point is framed exactly has you've posted it. There are a number of people in DP who support such a constitutional amendment, which does in fact allow business owners to be, at the very least, bigoted, but also racists. They choose to call it an act of "freedom", which is currently denied by thing like "The Civil Rights Act of 1964", etc, etc,...

My apologies. I thought I was posting my opinion on the question that was asked, didnt realize I should only post the way things currently are and nothing more. If we are only going to discuss the laws that currently are I suppose these conversations are going to be very short.