Discussion on the Job Guarantee Bill

[imagep]

Also, this:

Salaries And Financing
Median Monthly Disposable Salary (After Tax) - USA 2,921.98 $
Median Monthly Disposable Salary (After Tax) - Australia 3,996.32 $
Difference of: +36.77 %

And yet, the COL is more than 36.77% higher, on average, than in the USA, when all factors are considered. So how exactly is their having 2x the minimum wage helping them???

It helps those at the bottom of the wage scale. Most likely at the expense of those at the top of the wage scale. Thus, most likely, among those who choose to work in Australia, they probably have much lower poverty levels, and the Australian government thus probably has much less spending on welfare. Now look it up and tell me if my hypothisis is correct (or if I am actually the moron that most people on this forum the I am).

 

[iliveonramen]

I prefer Private Product Remaining. It completely removes the government component.

Hmmm...that's interesting. So the payment to a police officer for services rendered isn't a market transaction? How about if the government pays someone to build a road?

Why exactly is government anything other than an entity that represents citizens pooling their money in order to purchase things? So if got my office together to buy say 20 cases of beer or hire someone to clean a road once a month why is it different than the individual doing it? Why is it different when 300 million individuals do it?

 

[phattonez]

Regardless of the exact amount, your own numbers indicate that adjusted for the exchange rate, the minimum wage worker in Australia can still purchase more McDonalds double cheeseburgers than than the minimum wage worker in the US can.

But that is a meaningless fact, as the argument against minimum wage is that it decreases employment and production. That's not the point that proves whether it is useful or not.

Outside of fastfood, consumer prices in Australia are only 57% higher than in the US, while the Australian minimum wage is more than double the minimum wage in the US, so a $100 basket of goods in the US would take the US minimum wage worker nearly 14 hours of work to earn (ignoring taxes) and the Australian minimum wage worker could purchase the same basket of goods for about $160, which equates to less than 10 hours of labor.

You have proven JP's point for him. Thanks for the info.

Only?! That's hilarious.

 

[phattonez]

Hmmm...that's interesting. So the payment to a police officer for services rendered isn't a market transaction? How about if the government pays someone to build a road?

Why exactly is government anything other than an entity that represents citizens pooling their money in order to purchase things? So if got my office together to buy say 20 cases of beer or hire someone to clean a road once a month why is it different than the individual doing it? Why is it different when 300 million individuals do it?

It's different because 300 million individuals aren't doing it. Are you going to tell me that whatever representatives in government do is exactly what people want and all people are satisfied? Whereas in the other situation, with your office, you can choose not to buy the beer and not give up your money.

 

[phattonez]

It helps those at the bottom of the wage scale. Most likely at the expense of those at the top of the wage scale. Thus, most likely, among those who choose to work in Australia, they probably have much lower poverty levels, and the Australian government thus probably has much less spending on welfare. Now look it up and tell me if my hypothisis is correct (or if I am actually the moron that most people on this forum the I am).

You're not considering unemployment.

 

[imagep]

I/they seem to be posting a lot of links to facts..nothing wrong with that imo.


For the record - I am neither con nor lib...nor anything else.

Unfortunately for them, their facts tend to disprove their positions.

Personally, I would like to claim that I am a centrist or a moderate, but I am actually an extremist, but extremely left on some issues and extremly right on others, so most people just call me crazy.

 

[imagep]

I was using the metric you provided...

Then what metric should we be using for growth if not GDP?

Whichever distorted and misinterpreted metic proves his point of course. Cherry picking numbers is a fun game.

 

[phattonez]

Whichever distorted and misinterpreted metic proves his point of course. Cherry picking numbers is a fun game.

Right, because the accounting issues with GDP are just made up. You figured that out! :roll:

 

[imagep]

That's not what you said before. You flat out said a burger was cheaper in Australia. Now you're saying they're not. And then you completely failed to address the rest of the details I included.

Who is it that's failing, again?

Actually your own numbers prove that to the minimum wage worker, burgers are a tad bit cheaper in Australia than the US. But you do have a point that he used a weak example and then created (or googled) a cover-up for his weak example.

 

[iliveonramen]

It's different because 300 million individuals aren't doing it. Are you going to tell me that whatever representatives in government do is exactly what people want and all people are satisfied? Whereas in the other situation, with your office, you can choose not to buy the beer and not give up your money.

I don't see how that matters when the goal is to measure consumption and production. If the government takes X% of my salary and pays teachers for their services or builds a road or pays a fireman it doesn't matter if I'm anti-education that consumption of services happened.

 

[imagep]

And what did you borrow? Was it savings from individuals, or not? I'm sure you know how fractional-reserve banking works, so I don't know why you would make this statement.

I think I know how fractional reserve banking works, but many people tell me that I am mistaken. Regardless, I assume that at least a good portion of the money I borrowed came from savings, probably from the deposits made by individuals and companies and institutional investors. This proves my point that money is available to borrow when the borrower is considered credit worthy (yup, banks don't always make good lending decisions, my recent borrowing is a prime example).

Regime uncertainty. They're just going to hold onto that.

You can explain away why large companies arn't utilizing their cash to expand all you want to, but regardless of how you explain it, the fact that they are hording money is and not using it to expand is proof that the pooling of wealth doesn't neccesarally lead to job creation, and that it takes more than just pooled wealth to incentivise companies to hire - it also takes demand (consumption/purchasing/sales).

 

[imagep]

You know, we could probably clear up a lot of the debt in Washington if we sold much of the land that it has.

Ya, and our private sector growth would probably expand more rapidly if they just gave it away like they did way back then.

 

[phattonez]

I think I know how fractional reserve banking works, but many people tell me that I am mistaken. Regardless, I assume that at least a good portion of the money I borrowed came from savings, probably from the deposits made by individuals and companies and institutional investors. This proves my point that money is available to borrow when the borrower is considered credit worthy (yup, banks don't always make good lending decisions, my recent borrowing is a prime example).

At most 10% is savings, probably far less.

You can explain away why large companies arn't utilizing their cash to expand all you want to, but regardless of how you explain it, the fact that they are hording money is and not using it to expand is proof that the pooling of wealth doesn't neccesarally lead to job creation, and that it takes more than just pooled wealth to incentivise companies to hire - it also takes demand (consumption/purchasing/sales).

Regime uncertainty is a big reason why there is a lack of investment.

Regime Uncertainty: Why the Great Depression Lasted So Long and Why Prosperity Resumed after the War: The Independent Review: The Independent Institute

 

[JP Hochbaum]

the worst depression of all was not only not prevented by the Fed, their actions made it worse.

not a good track record to go back on at all.

What actions? What proof do you have of this?

 

[JP Hochbaum]

That's not what you said before. You flat out said a burger was cheaper in Australia. Now you're saying they're not. And then you completely failed to address the rest of the details I included.

Who is it that's failing, again?

LOL, what I said is still true. I am sorry that you can't remove other factors that effect price, like quality.

 

[JP Hochbaum]

You're not considering unemployment.

Australia's unemployment is half of ours.

 

[tessaesque]

It helps those at the bottom of the wage scale. Most likely at the expense of those at the top of the wage scale. Thus, most likely, among those who choose to work in Australia, they probably have much lower poverty levels, and the Australian government thus probably has much less spending on welfare. Now look it up and tell me if my hypothisis is correct (or if I am actually the moron that most people on this forum the I am).

Couldn't find most recent data for Australia, so I'm using 2008 numbers.
USA - 497 billion for 2008 (USD)
Australia - 140 billion for 2008 (USD)

USA 2008 population - 301 million
Australia 2008 population - 20 million

Per capita spending US - $1,651.16
Per capita spending Australia - $7,000.00

The only thing I would add is that I wasn't able to get a detailed report of what "welfare" consists of in Australia, and the US welfare numbers don't include "corporate" welfare. Just so everybody's clear on what I DIDN'T know.

Correction: Added 1 too many zeros to the original US welfare #.

 

[tessaesque]

LOL, what I said is still true. I am sorry that you can't remove other factors that effect price, like quality.

Oh, now you're moving the goal posts even more because you were shown to be incorrect?

 

[tessaesque]

Australia's unemployment is half of ours.

................

Unemployment rate was steady at 5.1%.

Straight from the Australian bureau of labor...

When did 5.1 become half of 8.2?? It is 38% lower than ours.

Does Australia also have a large illegal population? Did it have a huge housing market bubble that burst? Did it's auto industry require massive government intervention to avoid collapse?

Or would you like to keep inaccurately comparing apples to oranges? 'Cause I can do this all day.

 

[JP Hochbaum]

Oh, now you're moving the goal posts even more because you were shown to be incorrect?

YEs I was incorrect on a price to price comparison.

 

[imagep]

Refined sugar price, per pound, most recent month (in cents): 26.67 USD
Price in Australian dollars: 25.95

HFCS price, per pound, most recent month (in cents): 24.47 USD
Price in Australian dollars: 23.81

So a difference of + 2.14 cents (or about 8%).

Then, a Snicker's bar costs $1.63 in Australia (1.68 USD).
In the US, a Snicker's bar costs $0.99 ($0.97 Australian).

That's a difference of $0.66 cents, or close to 30%.

So....is it really just HFCS regulations, or could it have something to do with a general gap in COL???

OK, you fairly proved your point. The Australian dollar is worth less than the US dollar. In absoute terms, you are correct.

But in terms of the standard of living of those who choose to work, particularlly at the lower income levels, they can afford to purchase much more per hour of labor than we can in the US - I suspect that is what JP was getting at.

So the working poor in Australia are significantly better off than the working poor in the USA - the minimum wage worker in Australia can afford to purchase 10 snickers bars for every hour worked, but the US minimum wage worker can only afford 6 (based on the numbers that you provided). Now lets look to see if the relatively higher minimum wage is harming unemployment in Austalia (the conservative theory would be that that unemployment must be higher in Australia due to the higher minimum wage), nope, just looked it up, unemployment in Australia has not exceeded 5.4% in the past few years, yet it has averaged around 9% in the USA. I guess thats another right wing myth busted.

But high taxes lead to a bad economy right? So maybe Australias extremely low tax rates are compensating for their high minimum wage. Nope, just looked that up also, taxes as a percent of GDP are actually about 10% higher than in the US. Wow, it appears that a comparison of the economy in Australia to the economy in the US blows away almost all conservative economic talking points.

 

[iliveonramen]

It helps those at the bottom of the wage scale. Most likely at the expense of those at the top of the wage scale. Thus, most likely, among those who choose to work in Australia, they probably have much lower poverty levels, and the Australian government thus probably has much less spending on welfare. Now look it up and tell me if my hypothisis is correct (or if I am actually the moron that most people on this forum the I am).

I'd say you would be correct In a lot of cases for the working poor welfare and other benefits given seem to just be a form of wage subsidies so that someone can pay their workers less than it cost to live.

 

[JP Hochbaum]

................


Straight from the Australian bureau of labor...

When did 5.1 become half of 8.2?? It is 38% lower than ours.

Does Australia also have a large illegal population? Did it have a huge housing market bubble that burst? Did it's auto industry require massive government intervention to avoid collapse?

Or would you like to keep inaccurately comparing apples to oranges? 'Cause I can do this all day.

I didn't compare anything. The previous poster had asked for Australia's unemployment rate. SO I posted it.

 

[tessaesque]

I didn't compare anything. The previous poster had asked for Australia's unemployment rate. SO I posted it.

Your posts have been comparing Australian economics to US economics for the last several pages.

 

[iliveonramen]

But high taxes lead to a bad economy right? So maybe Australias extremely low tax rates are compensating for their high minimum wage. Nope, just looked that up also, taxes as a percent of GDP are actually about 10% higher than in the US. Wow, it appears that a comparison of the economy in Australia to the economy in the US blows away almost all conservative economic talking points.

Look at Germany who conservatives have been applauding lately. The country is the poster boy for strong labor and the welfare state.