Did you choose your sexual orientation?

[Antagony]

There seem to be so many factors that can contribute to a persons sexuality that it appears to me at least to be more complex than just simply making a choice.

Exactly. Which is contrary to what you first said and how you've voted in the poll.

Personally I am hoping to see more solid evidence suggesting that the primary factor is genetics. If it can be proven that sexual orientation is determined by genetics and a persons DNA is established at conception, then the argument can be made that a person's sexuality is determined at conception. I think abortionists, especially liberals, would be less likely to support abortion if the fetus might be gay. If the specific gene could be identified some abortions could be considered hate crimes. :lol:

Much recent research seems to be pointing more at chemical conditions in the womb shaping sexuality rather than it being defined at conception. If you look back at my earlier posts and watch the YouTube videos I posted, you will see that a lot of this was covered in that documentary.

EDIT: The YouTube Link 1/6

 

[Martin_Kaine]

Exactly. Which is contrary to what you first said and how you've voted in the poll.

Much recent research seems to be pointing more at chemical conditions in the womb shaping sexuality rather than it being defined at conception. If you look back at my earlier posts and watch the YouTube videos I posted, you will see that a lot of this was covered in that documentary.

EDIT: The YouTube Link 1/6

The question wasn't do you believe most people chose, it was did you chose, and I did chose so I voted accordingly. For me the choice was easy. It might not be for someone else.

I can't get on youtube while at work, but I will check them out later.

 

[cpwill]

How is falling in love a choice?
Is it a switch that you just flick on in your brain and say, "Ok, I'd like to fall in love with this person?" That's dumb.

you're right; such a claim would be dumb. fortunately that's not at all what I'm saying. what i'm pointing out is that this scenario:

Alright, let's say you're hanging out with someone of the opposite sex for a while, this person is really cool and you really like them. Was that a choice? Everything about this person is perfect to you and after a while it feels like you're thinking about them 24/7. Falling in love just happens. If you "click" with another person, then, yeah, you're going to fall in love with them. You fall in love with peoples' personalities. Do you get what I'm trying to say here?

lasts for a few months; possibly a couple of years. biology is kicking in, the homorones are on drive, and everything is pink fluffy bunny rabbits, sunshine kittens, and rainbow smiles. but is that "falling in love", "falling in lust" or "falling into infatuation"?

then that goes away. in our self-obsessed culture this is called "falling out of love" though of course it is nothing of the kind. it is having the honeymoon period subside, the slow realization that infatuation does not last. you get bored, you don't know why the mystery, the adventure, the 'love of your love' (for do lovers ever really talk about much else for too long without mentioning it?) has dissappeared. plenty of folks, because the "falling in love" was so easy, assume that they will just stick it out, and wait for "love to come back". many break after realizing that it won't "just come back". and there is a reason that it won't - because Love ultimately is a choice. you decide you are going to love this person, you sit down and look at this man/woman and realize that they really piss you off. they have flaws you don't like. you have different interests. you realize all this deep communication you thought you had was just both of you wanted it to be true, not necessarily because it was true itself. whatever that zing, that desire for the love was, "it" just hasn't been "there", and you decide that you made a commitment, and you're going to continue to build a life together with them.

in previous generations, this was largely taken for granted. nowadays, we're a bit more me-focused. demanders of instant gratification, "falling in love" is supposed to be like in the movies - we meet, there is some initial attraction, perhaps a slight (but easily overcome) conflict, followed by a montage of how we are now perfectly happy for ever and ever and ever and when that fails we simply declare that we have "fallen out of love" oh well no harm done, certainly not anyone's fault; could happen to anybody, really... because we're not realizing that inaction, too, is a choice.

Just think about any time that you liked someone. If you're married, think about when you first knew you were in love with your spouse. Can you honestly say that you chose to fall in love with them?

yes. i sat down and made the choice to continue to love this woman, even in the times when i didn't want to, even when i didn't feel "it" or like it. and we are all the better and more secure together for it, for each of us knows that we are not held hostage to random wind-blowing, horomone levels, conflict from distressing life-events, or proximity to pink bunnies. both of us have chosen each other, made a conscious decision to love and work on loving each other.

 

[Antagony]

The question wasn't do you believe most people chose, it was did you chose, and I did chose so I voted accordingly. For me the choice was easy. It might not be for someone else.

Well, as has already been established, what you experienced was the discovery of your preference, not the reasons for your preference or a decision about what your preference was. For it to have been a choice, you would have had to have been as fascinated and interested in men as you was in women, when you first started noticing them. Clearly you weren't, so it can hardly have been a choice, can it?

 

[MsCommonSensiality]

you're right; such a claim would be dumb. fortunately that's not at all what I'm saying. what i'm pointing out is that this scenario:



lasts for a few months; possibly a couple of years. biology is kicking in, the homorones are on drive, and everything is pink fluffy bunny rabbits, sunshine kittens, and rainbow smiles. but is that "falling in love", "falling in lust" or "falling into infatuation"?

then that goes away. in our self-obsessed culture this is called "falling out of love" though of course it is nothing of the kind. it is having the honeymoon period subside, the slow realization that infatuation does not last. you get bored, you don't know why the mystery, the adventure, the 'love of your love' (for do lovers ever really talk about much else for too long without mentioning it?) has dissappeared. plenty of folks, because the "falling in love" was so easy, assume that they will just stick it out, and wait for "love to come back". many break after realizing that it won't "just come back". and there is a reason that it won't - because Love ultimately is a choice. you decide you are going to love this person, you sit down and look at this man/woman and realize that they really piss you off. they have flaws you don't like. you have different interests. you realize all this deep communication you thought you had was just both of you wanted it to be true, not necessarily because it was true itself. whatever that zing, that desire for the love was, "it" just hasn't been "there", and you decide that you made a commitment, and you're going to continue to build a life together with them.

in previous generations, this was largely taken for granted. nowadays, we're a bit more me-focused. demanders of instant gratification, "falling in love" is supposed to be like in the movies - we meet, there is some initial attraction, perhaps a slight (but easily overcome) conflict, followed by a montage of how we are now perfectly happy for ever and ever and ever and when that fails we simply declare that we have "fallen out of love" oh well no harm done, certainly not anyone's fault; could happen to anybody, really... because we're not realizing that inaction, too, is a choice.



yes. i sat down and made the choice to continue to love this woman, even in the times when i didn't want to, even when i didn't feel "it" or like it. and we are all the better and more secure together for it, for each of us knows that we are not held hostage to random wind-blowing, horomone levels, conflict from distressing life-events, or proximity to pink bunnies. both of us have chosen each other, made a conscious decision to love and work on loving each other.

Look, I don't mean to be rude...but you just posted a bunch of bull****.

You don't choose, your heart chooses who you fall in love with. There are many people in love with someone they wish they weren't in love with. Like, for example, women who are being abused by their husbands or boyfriends. They love them despite their behavior. The only choice they make is the choice to stay with the abuser.

So, yeah, you can say that you sat down and made the choice to continue to stay with her, but you can't control your love. There are certain things about her that you love. Those are also out of your control. Nobody knows for sure what causes our likes and dislikes. It's certainly not up to us.

 

[lizzie]

Imo, "falling in love" is a spontaneous emotional response and does not have much to do with love or the heart for that matter. Love, however, requires dedication and devotion, and is more action-based than response-based. Love is something that does not depend on happiness or excitement.

 

[cpwill]

Look, I don't mean to be rude...but you just posted a bunch of bull****

You don't choose, your heart chooses who you fall in love with.

no offense is taken, but i would advise you in the future to perhaps avoiding on accusing others of lying when you have no evidence.

yes. my wife and i have made the choice to love each other. we did it deliberately. the strength that has given us has allowed us to make it through trials that crash many other marriages: two deployments, getting pregnant before we were married, and even infidelity. because at the end of the day, after the pain and the stress, we chose to remain devoted to each other, to our life together, to our love. and we are the better for it.

i see that you are 18. i hope (and think; at 18 my notion was much worse) that you grow in depth far beyond the shallow idea you have of love today. it is so much richer and more rewarding than you are imagining.

 

[MsCommonSensiality]

no offense is taken, but i would advise you in the future to perhaps avoiding on accusing others of lying when you have no evidence.

yes. my wife and i have made the choice to love each other. we did it deliberately. the strength that has given us has allowed us to make it through trials that crash many other marriages: two deployments, getting pregnant before we were married, and even infidelity. because at the end of the day, after the pain and the stress, we chose to remain devoted to each other, to our life together, to our love. and we are the better for it.

i see that you are 18. i hope (and think; at 18 my notion was much worse) that you grow in depth far beyond the shallow idea you have of love today. it is so much richer and more rewarding than you are imagining.

You chose to continue the relationship. You didn't choose to stay in love. Sure, maybe if you try really hard you can force yourself to think you're still in love. I've never heard of anyone saying that they chose to fall in love or stay in love.

All I've ever heard was decisions to stay in relationships.
I don't believe I have a shallow take on love. Yeah, I kind of think it's over-rated and I probably won't get married, but I know it's not a choice for us to make.

I can't really explain my beliefs that clearly. All I know is that I've never chosen to like or love anybody. It's just something about the person that I really enjoy. I also know that there's plenty of people who would kill to be able to just erase their feelings for someone. That'd be nice.

Or maybe those poor girls and boys in other countries who are forced into arranged marriages. I bet they'd like to love the person they call their spouse.

You can believe what you want, though. I'm not trying to stop you. That's just what I've personally experienced and what I've heard from my family, friends and on t.v.

 

[cpwill]

You chose to continue the relationship. You didn't choose to stay in love.

excuse you, but we actually did.

Sure, maybe if you try really hard you can force yourself to think you're still in love. I've never heard of anyone saying that they chose to fall in love or stay in love.

let me refer you then to a highly successful marriage counselor by the name of Gary Chapman. In particular I would recommend his Five Languages of Love and Four Seasons of Marriage.

I don't believe I have a shallow take on love.

MsCommonSense, if you think that "Falling in love just happens. If you "click" with another person, then, yeah, you're going to fall in love with them.", then you are in for such a wonderful surprise. hopefully with not much heartbreak in between.

I can't really explain my beliefs that clearly. All I know is that I've never chosen to like or love anybody

how many romantic relationships have you been in that have lasted longer than 4 years?

It's just something about the person that I really enjoy.

then you are confusing "being in love" with "liking", "enjoying" "having a good relationship with" or "being infatuated with" someone. you are selling yourself short; you have so much more to offer someone than to just hope that they are trapped into falling in love with you by a random portion of your appearance of personality that they have a predilection for out of their control.

Or maybe those poor girls and boys in other countries who are forced into arranged marriages. I bet they'd like to love the person they call their spouse.

they can. the whole "marrying because you're already in love" thing is a pretty modern idea; and i'm not sure one that has such a great track record.

You can believe what you want, though. I'm not trying to stop you. That's just what I've personally experienced and what I've heard from my family, friends and on t.v.

 

[rivrrat]

You chose to continue the relationship. You didn't choose to stay in love. Sure, maybe if you try really hard you can force yourself to think you're still in love. I've never heard of anyone saying that they chose to fall in love or stay in love.

All I've ever heard was decisions to stay in relationships.
I don't believe I have a shallow take on love. Yeah, I kind of think it's over-rated and I probably won't get married, but I know it's not a choice for us to make.

I can't really explain my beliefs that clearly. All I know is that I've never chosen to like or love anybody. It's just something about the person that I really enjoy. I also know that there's plenty of people who would kill to be able to just erase their feelings for someone. That'd be nice.

Or maybe those poor girls and boys in other countries who are forced into arranged marriages. I bet they'd like to love the person they call their spouse.

You can believe what you want, though. I'm not trying to stop you. That's just what I've personally experienced and what I've heard from my family, friends and on t.v.

I hear ya. If we could choose who we love, no one in the world would ever feel heartache or emotional pain. Obviously, this is not the case.

 

[cpwill]

obviously your argument makes a false assumption. being in love with someone does not make them not human, and certainly does not mean that they can't hurt you.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

The question wasn't do you believe most people chose, it was did you chose, and I did chose so I voted accordingly. For me the choice was easy. It might not be for someone else.

I can't get on youtube while at work, but I will check them out later.

Tell us WHAT you chose.

 

[rivrrat]

obviously your argument makes a false assumption. being in love with someone does not make them not human, and certainly does not mean that they can't hurt you.

If I could choose to love them, then I could choose not to love them. Thus, if they try to hurt me, I can just up and choose not to love them and thereby avoid any pain.

When someone dies, I could just choose not to care, not to love them. No love, no pain. If someone I don't care about dies, I don't experience pain.

When a spouse or significant other decides to leave, I could just choose not to love them, not to care. No love, no pain.

If everyone could just choose to love or not to love someone, we would be able to avoid all emotional pain by way of just choosing not to care/love.

Quite obviously, this is not the case.

 

[cpwill]

If I could choose to love them, then I could choose not to love them. Thus, if they try to hurt me, I can just up and choose not to love them and thereby avoid any pain.

ah, you are assuming that because it is a choice it is instantaneous, easy, or an equal move in either direction. none of those are true. this is a choice over time, like sticking to a diet, developing a good part of your personality, or learning to fight temptation. and once you have loved and are in love with someone, absolutely there are ties that bind. that's why divorce is such a serious issue; in Christianity, it's akin to murder, because of the level of destruction that's going on. and avoiding pain isn't just a naive mission on this life, it's a foolish one as well; some of our best gifts come in the form of pain.

 

[rivrrat]

ah, you are assuming that because it is a choice it is instantaneous, easy, or an equal move in either direction. none of those are true. this is a choice over time, like sticking to a diet, developing a good part of your personality, or learning to fight temptation. and once you have loved and are in love with someone, absolutely there are ties that bind. that's why divorce is such a serious issue; in Christianity, it's akin to murder, because of the level of destruction that's going on. and avoiding pain isn't just a naive mission on this life, it's a foolish one as well; some of our best gifts come in the form of pain.

LOL Yeah, okay.

 

[cpwill]

LOL Yeah, okay.

it's true. we humans are generally a stubborn and stupid lot, and don't seem to learn that well from much else. I can't recommend CS Lewis enough, but his Problem of Pain, imo, should be required reading for anyone who wants to deal with lifes' hard questions.

 

[rivrrat]

it's true. we humans are generally a stubborn and stupid lot, and don't seem to learn that well from much else. I can't recommend CS Lewis enough, but his Problem of Pain, imo, should be required reading for anyone who wants to deal with lifes' hard questions.

LOL Thanks, but no thanks. I have no need to read anything further about Christian doctrine. Such writings are perfectly meaningless.

And, I wasn't laughing at your statement about pain. I was laughing about the rest of it. The mere notion that one could force themselves to love someone just out of sheer will. The notion that one could just choose to fall in and out of love on a whim. It's amusing. The only thing that I will concede is that one can choose to ALLOW themselves to fall in love by way of allowing themselves to feel anything at all, and allow themselves to let go of someone and eventually allow that love to fade. But the implication that I could just pick some random stranger off the street and somehow make myself fall in love with them is... utterly ridiculous. Amusing, but ridiculous.

 

[lizzie]

The mere notion that one could force themselves to love someone just out of sheer will. The notion that one could just choose to fall in and out of love on a whim. It's amusing. The only thing that I will concede is that one can choose to ALLOW themselves to fall in love by way of allowing themselves to feel anything at all, and allow themselves to let go of someone and eventually allow that love to fade. But the implication that I could just pick some random stranger off the street and somehow make myself fall in love with them is... utterly ridiculous. Amusing, but ridiculous.

No offense intended from me, because it is apparent that you are very intelligent and passionate about what you believe, but I think you are confusing the notion of "falling in and out of love", and the act of love aside from the emotional aspects. When one falls in love, it's highly emotionally charged and forgiving of faults. That's the fun part.
As time wears on, and you realize that the object of your adoration has faults that drive you insane, or he puts his underwear on the wrong way, or he/she drives you frustratingly nuts with annoying habits, or he/she betrays your trust- at that point you make the decision to love inspite of the things you hate, or you decide to part with what causes you pain. And yes- pain is an excellent teacher of humility, real love, and just what you are made of. It can make you strive to be better, or it can make you bitter. The painful lessons in my life have been, by far, the most valuable ones, and the ones that I am most thankful for.

 

[rivrrat]

No offense intended from me, because it is apparent that you are very intelligent and passionate about what you believe, but I think you are confusing the notion of "falling in and out of love", and the act of love aside from the emotional aspects. When one falls in love, it's highly emotionally charged and forgiving of faults. That's the fun part.
As time wears on, and you realize that the object of your adoration has faults that drive you insane, or he puts his underwear on the wrong way, or he/she drives you frustratingly nuts with annoying habits, or he/she betrays your trust- at that point you make the decision to love inspite of the things you hate, or you decide to part with what causes you pain.

That's not choosing to love or not to love. That's choosing to stay in a relationship, or not stay in a relationship. That's choosing to nurture that love, or not to nurture that love. But you don't just up and decide not to love someone because they throw their underwear on the floor. You may choose not to tolerate that behavior and thus leave the relationship and eventually that love will fade. But you don't just flick a switch and choose to love or not to love.

 

[cpwill]

LOL Thanks, but no thanks. I have no need to read anything further about Christian doctrine. Such writings are perfectly meaningless.

CS Lewis has been called many things, but I don't think I've ever heard "meaningless". methinks you haven't read much of which you denigrate.

And, I wasn't laughing at your statement about pain. I was laughing about the rest of it. The mere notion that one could force themselves to love someone just out of sheer will.

absolutely one can. we have too many counterexamples. mind you, I think such a thing (where will was all that mattered) is extremely difficult; and I would bet that none but the best among us can come close.

The notion that one could just choose to fall in and out of love on a whim.

is not what i'm arguing. I tried pointing this out to you, and I wish you would recognize that i'm pointing to something far richer and more complex than the strawman you are putting up.

But the implication that I could just pick some random stranger off the street and somehow make myself fall in love with them is... utterly ridiculous. Amusing, but ridiculous.

actually, as madam common sense brings up; that exact story is the general history of humankinds' romantic love up until the past short century or two.

 

[Skateguy]

I have heard people put forth the argument, that being Homo, was determined by whether one was the "Pitcher" or the "catcher" ---I'm of the belief, that both are Three dollar bills. ---When I was a small child, a couple of the kids were known to be "qweer" which was the only term we knew back then. I found it interesting that some of the "straight" guys seemed to like to have sleep overs with them. Hummm????

 

[rivrrat]

CS Lewis has been called many things, but I don't think I've ever heard "meaningless". methinks you haven't read much of which you denigrate.

Quite the contrary. I've read TOO much. If it's Christian, I have no use for it and it most certainly IS meaningless to me.

absolutely one can. we have too many counterexamples. mind you, I think such a thing (where will was all that mattered) is extremely difficult; and I would bet that none but the best among us can come close.

And I think you're full of ****.

is not what i'm arguing. I tried pointing this out to you, and I wish you would recognize that i'm pointing to something far richer and more complex than the strawman you are putting up.

It's exactly what you're arguing.

actually, as madam common sense brings up; that exact story is the general history of humankinds' romantic love up until the past short century or two.

What are you talking about?

 

[MsCommonSensiality]

excuse you, but we actually did.

let me refer you then to a highly successful marriage counselor by the name of Gary Chapman. In particular I would recommend his Five Languages of Love and Four Seasons of Marriage.

MsCommonSense, if you think that "Falling in love just happens. If you "click" with another person, then, yeah, you're going to fall in love with them.", then you are in for such a wonderful surprise. hopefully with not much heartbreak in between.

how many romantic relationships have you been in that have lasted longer than 4 years?

then you are confusing "being in love" with "liking", "enjoying" "having a good relationship with" or "being infatuated with" someone. you are selling yourself short; you have so much more to offer someone than to just hope that they are trapped into falling in love with you by a random portion of your appearance of personality that they have a predilection for out of their control.

they can. the whole "marrying because you're already in love" thing is a pretty modern idea; and i'm not sure one that has such a great track record.

I don't know what else to say to you. You're not making any sense to me. I guess I just can't grasp the concept of someone actually making themselves feel a certain way.

Also, how is the time period of four years relevant?

 

[cpwill]

Quite the contrary. I've read TOO much.

color me curious. what of CS Lewis have you read?

If it's Christian, I have no use for it and it most certainly IS meaningless to me.

that seems to me to be a self-defeating approach. my Christian faith didn't keep me from finding worth in studying Confucianism, Buddhism, Islam, or Daoism.

And I think you're full of ****.

hmmm. well, take our current discussion. i have attempted to be nothing but patient and polite with both yourself and ms common sense; in return for which I have been abused. nonetheless, i continue to be patient and polite; and genuinely am saddened that both of you seem to be selling yourselves short. you are both far more intrinsically valuable than your stated beliefs would require. i also, however, extend you the respect of assuming that you actually believe what you say, as opposed to accusing you of being deliberately disingenuous.

take my refusal to look down on you, though you demonstrate such an attitude towards me, and merely extend it. then you will see what i am referencing here.

It's exactly what you're arguing.

it is not. to repeat myself: this is a choice over time, like sticking to a diet, developing a good part of your personality, or learning to fight temptation. and once you have loved and are in love with someone, absolutely there are ties that bind. that's why divorce is such a serious issue; in Christianity, it's akin to murder, because of the level of destruction that's going on.

What are you talking about?

the notion that we should marry someone with whom we are already in love is a very post-Transcendentalist idea. the vast majority of human experience disagrees with your claims here.

 

[rivrrat]

the notion that we should marry someone with whom we are already in love is a very post-Transcendentalist idea. the vast majority of human experience disagrees with your claims here.

I'm not talking about marriage. Just because someone CAN eventually fall in love with someone they live with for dozens of years doesn't mean they chose to fall in love with them. It's something that happens over time. There is no way in hell that someone can just will themselves to fall in love with someone they detest. And your insistence that they can is laughable.

Can people who marry for reasons other than love eventually love another another? Of course. Not a single person is saying anything to the contrary. That fact, however, does not imply a simple switch that they turned on and CHOSE to love that person. It's something that just eventually happened.