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Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal Gov

Dind The Federal Govt create the states, or states create federal govt


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The_Patriot

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Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal Government?

A simple question to stimulate discussion.

I believe that the states created the federal government and the federal government should listen to the states.

Edit: Forgot the poll so I apologize. The answers in the poll would have been Yes (Explain), No (Explain), and Other (Explain.
 
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Wiseone

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

I think its pretty obvious who created who, the states, their governments, their people, existed long before the United States and the Federal government and they were all created by representatives of their respective states. But I don't believe that should have an effect on the relationship between the states and the feds
 

Redress

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal Government?

A simple question to stimulate discussion.

I believe that the states created the federal government and the federal government should listen to the states.

Edit: Forgot the poll so I apologize. The answers in the poll would have been Yes (Explain), No (Explain), and Other (Explain.

Your question does not fit a yes or no answer, how about these for poll options:

The federal government created the states
The states created the federal government
Other

If that is OK, I can add the poll options.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal Government?

A simple question to stimulate discussion.

I believe that the states created the federal government and the federal government should listen to the states.

Edit: Forgot the poll so I apologize. The answers in the poll would have been Yes (Explain), No (Explain), and Other (Explain.

It depends on which state you're talking about.

Some were the original colonies - staked and defined before the Articles of the Confederation.

Others were decided by federal government based on physical boundaries (mountains, rivers, lakes, etc).

Yet in other cases portions of the state were argued for between two states.

In another state a mistake in land-plotting calculations when they built a fort extended the pre-agreed area of the US into Canada . . . so in this situation it was someone's stupid ****up that defined the state's border.

Then we have states that were existing on their own (Alaska, Hawaii) and then wanted into our country - purely on deal with the federal government, not the states.

Of course there are some states that don't even exist anymore - one (at least from what I remember) was proposed in one land-divide plan that was submitted to the government and approval wasn't given - so they weren't formed.

And so on - every state has it's own story and history and the reason for the shape, location, size and name were up to various people/governments for different reasons.

Watch "how the states got their shapes" - it's truly fascinating.

Now - I know that's not what you asked but I digressed at my pleasure, it's my Birthday - :mrgreen:

*sprinkles on some nerds . . . *
 

The_Patriot

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

Your question does not fit a yes or no answer, how about these for poll options:

The federal government created the states
The states created the federal government
Other

If that is OK, I can add the poll options.

That's fine Redress and thank you.
 

Redress

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

Poll added.
 

The_Patriot

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

It depends on which state you're talking about.

Some were the original colonies - staked and defined before the Articles of the Confederation.

Others were decided by federal government based on physical boundaries (mountains, rivers, lakes, etc).

Yet in other cases portions of the state were argued for between two states.

In another state a mistake in land-plotting calculations when they built a fort extended the pre-agreed area of the US into Canada . . . so in this situation it was someone's stupid ****up that defined the state's border.

Then we have states that were existing on their own (Alaska, Hawaii) and then wanted into our country - purely on deal with the federal government, not the states.

Of course there are some states that don't even exist anymore - one (at least from what I remember) was proposed in one land-divide plan that was submitted to the government and approval wasn't given - so they weren't formed.

And so on - every state has it's own story and history and the reason for the shape, location, size and name were up to various people/governments for different reasons.

Watch "how the states got their shapes" - it's truly fascinating.

Now - I know that's not what you asked but I digressed at my pleasure, it's my Birthday - :mrgreen:

*sprinkles on some nerds . . . *

Thomas Jefferson when discussing the Louisiana Purchase said that any new state arising from the territory would be considered on the same footing as the original thirteen colonies. I'll look for a quote.

Happy birthday!:gunsmilie:2birthday
 

Aunt Spiker

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

Thomas Jefferson when discussing the Louisiana Purchase said that any new state arising from the territory would be considered on the same footing as the original thirteen colonies. I'll look for a quote.

Happy birthday!:gunsmilie:2birthday

Thank you!


Isn't it interesting how things were divied up back then?

Still - did the states create of the federal government, or vise versa?

Honestly - that still depends on the existance of the states and why/when it came to be. Surely not *all* the states were even around so of course many had no relation to the federal government. At the time of the Articles of the Confederation there was a minimal fed government - and a semi-coagulated country to boot. So, the states jump-started the federal government, but limited it's powers. Things evolved, Shay's Rebellion among other things spawned the necessity for a stronger federal government. . . things progressed in that direction almost naturally.

Of course if the state's elected officials et al didn't come together and agree on a new government blueprint things wouldn't exist as they are, today. The states had to agree (almost all did) on the Constitution and Ratify it. Everyone had to be on board.

So - some states created the government - yes.
But the government created some states and granted them 'full statehood' for a variety of reasons.
 

The_Patriot

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

Thank you!


Isn't it interesting how things were divied up back then?

Still - did the states create of the federal government, or vise versa?

Honestly - that still depends on the existance of the states and why/when it came to be. Surely not *all* the states were even around so of course many had no relation to the federal government. At the time of the Articles of the Confederation there was a minimal fed government - and a semi-coagulated country to boot. So, the states jump-started the federal government, but limited it's powers. Things evolved, Shay's Rebellion among other things spawned the necessity for a stronger federal government. . . things progressed in that direction almost naturally.

Of course if the state's elected officials et al didn't come together and agree on a new government blueprint things wouldn't exist as they are, today. The states had to agree (almost all did) on the Constitution and Ratify it. Everyone had to be on board.

So - some states created the government - yes.
But the government created some states and granted them 'full statehood' for a variety of reasons.

Well I spent time looking for the quote and can't find it. The gist was that he was explaining that the new states created from the Louisiania Purchase would be considered on the same footing as the original states to the point that regardless of when they were organized that their founding date would predate the Constitution and the federal government. This was done to prevent the new states from being mistreated by the original thirteen.
 

The_Patriot

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

I think its pretty obvious who created who, the states, their governments, their people, existed long before the United States and the Federal government and they were all created by representatives of their respective states. But I don't believe that should have an effect on the relationship between the states and the feds

Why don't you think this should have effect?
 

Gabriel

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

I am no constitutional authority. It is apparent the constitution is a surrendering of authority to a federal power from the state level. It is an agreement between parties involved. Am I missing something here?
 

rathi

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

What is the point? Most of the original states we created by the British, but that doesn't mean the U.K gets to control Virginia nowadays. The civil war made it quite clear that the federal government holds the greater power and it remains so to this day.
 

The_Patriot

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

I am no constitutional authority. It is apparent the constitution is a surrendering of authority to a federal power from the state level. It is an agreement between parties involved. Am I missing something here?

Not all state authority is surrended. Just an enumerated list of powers delegated from the states to the federal government and certain prohibitions on the states while inside of the Union. It is a legal contract between parties.
 

The_Patriot

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

What is the point? Most of the original states we created by the British, but that doesn't mean the U.K gets to control Virginia nowadays. The civil war made it quite clear that the federal government holds the greater power and it remains so to this day.

The point is to talk about it.

I'll quote Jefferson Davis about your appeal to the Civil War.

A question settled by force of arms will forever remain unanswered.

The federal government does not have greater power than the states in the Constituton of the United States. The federal government is supposed to be subservient to the states and is limited in power through the enumeration of powers delegated.
 

Gabriel

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

Not all state authority is surrended. Just an enumerated list of powers delegated from the states to the federal government and certain prohibitions on the states while inside of the Union. It is a legal contract between parties.

Right no that is clear not all authority but a substantial portion obviously. Clearly issues of sovereignty and the like are federal but there are other amendments all agreed on of course.
 

The_Patriot

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

Right no that is clear not all authority but a substantial portion obviously. Clearly issues of sovereignty and the like are federal but there are other amendments all agreed on of course.

Sovereignty of the states was never surrendered to the federal government. Here's proof from Missouri's Constitution.

Section 4. That Missouri is a free and independent state, subject only to the Constitution of the United States; that all proposed amendments to the Constitution of the United States qualifying or affecting the individual liberties of the people or which in any wise may impair the right of local self-government belonging to the people of this state, should be submitted to conventions of the people.
 

Gabriel

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

Sovereignty of the states was never surrendered to the federal government. Here's proof from Missouri's Constitution.

Section 4. That Missouri is a free and independent state, subject only to the Constitution of the United States; that all proposed amendments to the Constitution of the United States qualifying or affecting the individual liberties of the people or which in any wise may impair the right of local self-government belonging to the people of this state, should be submitted to conventions of the people.

Well if thats the case you got a real shot at anarchy.. woot. Racial profiling for the win in Arizona! Hell take it far enough.. civil war! "reload".
 

The_Patriot

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

Well if thats the case you got a real shot at anarchy.. woot. Racial profiling for the win in Arizona! Hell take it far enough.. civil war! "reload".

Hyperbole...
 

rathi

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

I'll quote Jefferson Davis about your appeal to the Civil War.

A question settled by force of arms will forever remain unanswered.

The question has been answered. As long as the federal government has the military power to enforce its will, it always will be answered. Eisenhower proved that point nearly 100 years later, and it still applies today.

The federal government does not have greater power than the states in the Constituton of the United States. The federal government is supposed to be subservient to the states and is limited in power through the enumeration of powers delegated.

Nothing in the Constitution says the federal government is subservient to the states. The Federal government is limited in power, but the powers it does have are greater than the states. Control of income taxes, treaties and the standing army are pretty much the ultimate trump cards. The system is balanced however, by giving the states the power to alter the constitution itself to check federal power.
 

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

Your question does not fit a yes or no answer, how about these for poll options:

The federal government created the states
The states created the federal government
Other

If that is OK, I can add the poll options.

Apparently thus far 100% of those who responded, agreed that the States created the Federal Government.
Of course as a moderator you have the power to add any "other" option, you might even have suggested Donald Duck.
 

Aunt Spiker

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

I took the 'other' option. . .which I've addressed: The first states created the federal government, but then the federal government created many more states.
 

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

The states created the federal government. As the US is not a confederation, but a republic, and the fact that nullification has been struck down consistently, the federal government has more power than the states.
 

The_Patriot

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

The states created the federal government. As the US is not a confederation, but a republic, and the fact that nullification has been struck down consistently, the federal government has more power than the states.

If nullification has been struck down consistently then how is that the Real ID Act and other federal legislation has been overturned in the states and not implemented? The US is a federation of states and the founding fathers have stated it many times.
 

CaptainCourtesy

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Re: Did the Federal Government Create the States or Did the States Create the Federal

If nullification has been struck down consistently then how is that the Real ID Act and other federal legislation has been overturned in the states and not implemented? The US is a federation of states and the founding fathers have stated it many times.

The implementation of the Real ID Act has been extended to 2011. Currently, it's constitutionality is being questioned and a potential repeal is in the works. As of now, though several states have stated that they will not implement it, if it is not repealed, they will not have much of a choice.

Also, I think President Andrew Jackson said it well: "I consider, then, the power to annul a law of the United States, assumed by one State, incompatible with the existence of the Union, contradicted expressly by the letter of the Constitution, unauthorized by its spirit, inconsistent with every principle on which It was founded, and destructive of the great object for which it was formed."
 
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