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Did Biblical events really exist?

flip2

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The Great Flood, Noah's Ark. Fall of Babylon. Goliath. Ummmm.....what else . ... Jesus Christ. Is there evidence of events written in the Bible existing today?
 

Arthur Fonzarelli

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flip2 said:
The Great Flood, Noah's Ark. Fall of Babylon. Goliath. Ummmm.....what else . ... Jesus Christ. Is there evidence of events written in the Bible existing today?
YES.

But of course there will always be nay sayers. Throughout history people have worked hard to prove & disprove the reality of Biblical events. Both, at times, make compelling arguments. My belief is that, yes, these events did occur.
 

flip2

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Can you lay out some proof, some irrefutable evidence of any event ever occurring? I mean, I've been called stupid and idiotic for believing in the Bible. I just want to make sure the crack I'm taking is pure and not synthetic.
 

Arthur Fonzarelli

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flip2 said:
Can you lay out some proof, some irrefutable evidence of any event ever occurring? I mean, I've been called stupid and idiotic for believing in the Bible. I just want to make sure the crack I'm taking is pure and not synthetic.
To be honest, I am not going to spend the next several hours searching out articles & reports on the findings of Biblical events. You stated that you've been called stupid for believing in the Bible...no amount of evidence will change the minds of those who would tell you that. I have & I'm sure you have read many things in support & not in support of Biblical beliefs. Thus, no matter what I say or the amount of info I come up with the argument will continue.

NOTE: They found the tomb of James; the brother of Jesus, as it was scribed on the box itself. They believe to have found some remains of the Ark built by Noah. The problem with many of the findings is that there's always someone to say that it's a fraud.
 

flip2

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I'm just waiting for those that want to rebuff the events described to start posting. I watched a documentary about Noah's Ark and the Great Flood. They showed footage of what appeared to be a very large, wooden, rectangular frame under snow in some mountain range in I forget where. And not far from that piece was another piece that appeared to be the other half.
 

Arthur Fonzarelli

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Yeah, I have seen many shows on the History Channel about that as well as other "Biblical Mysteries." I've also read stuff online. I have argued this so many times before (at other sites) that after a while I just get tired of it because it boils down to belief in God & His Word. My only hope is that those who do not believe will at some point before their death come to the full knowledge of Jesus Christ & accept Him as their personal Savior.
 

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flip2 said:
The Great Flood, Noah's Ark. Fall of Babylon. Goliath. Ummmm.....what else . ... Jesus Christ. Is there evidence of events written in the Bible existing today?
The Great Flood: Evidence found in the ground far below usuall surface levels in the Middle East, indicate there was a flood around the area of South West Turkey, and " Mesopotamia " present day Iraq.

Fall of Babylon: Very true indeed, existing around 4000-2000 B.C. Babylon was the greatest Empire of its time, but like all Empires, it didn't last.

Goliath: No, only legends, most believe this was fictional.

Jesus Christ: The evidence on Jesus is overwhelming, try reading some books or watch a bit of television, just skim through the channels and you're bound to find something.
 

Tashah

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In my humble opinion, the Bible is more of a narrative device rather than a concise historical document. Parts of it are borrowed from earlier oral and written sources such as the narrative of Noah's Flood, which in literary form stems from the much older Epic of Gilgamesh. Other parts of the Bible are strictly metaphorical in nature, meant to serve as colorful lessons in fundamental theology. Mixed in with the above are other portions that do indeed possess a valid historicity. Rather than being an historical tract, the Bible serves a unique repository of faith and higher ideals.

 

Binary_Digit

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Soviet_Guy said:
The Great Flood: Evidence found in the ground far below usuall surface levels in the Middle East, indicate there was a flood around the area of South West Turkey, and " Mesopotamia " present day Iraq.

Fall of Babylon: Very true indeed, existing around 4000-2000 B.C. Babylon was the greatest Empire of its time, but like all Empires, it didn't last.

Goliath: No, only legends, most believe this was fictional.

Jesus Christ: The evidence on Jesus is overwhelming, try reading some books or watch a bit of television, just skim through the channels and you're bound to find something.
Exactly.

Regarding the Flood, the History channel documentary I saw said that the sediment layer in modern-day Mesopotamia (where Noah is believed to have lived) is 100 miles in diameter. No doubt this would appear to cover the whole earth from the perspective of someone in the middle of it. The horizon is only about 3 miles away if you're 6 feet tall.
http://www.scubageek.com/geek/articles/wwwhorizon.html

Also, many experts agree that gopher wood would not have lasted this long. Given the right conditions, some of the parts may be petrified, but otherwise gopher wood would have rotted away into dust by now.

One interesting event is the Tower of Babel, where God supposedly changed everyone's language. I think they (the History Channel) said the Tower of Bable story is shared by more religions than any other single event.
 

Tashah

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Soviet_Guy said:
Jesus Christ: The evidence on Jesus is overwhelming.

Although evidence of the early Christians is overwhelming, there is precious little historical evidence to corroborate that Jesus Christ lived in Judea during the administration of the Roman Procurator Pontius Pilote.

Don't misunderstand me, as I am not saying he did not actually exist. All I am saying is that he is hard to find historically (ummmm no.... the gospels are theological and not historical documents).

Nothing of Jesus from historians Flavius Josephus, Philo Judaeus, Justus of Tiberia, Suetonius, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, or even the memoirs of Pontius Pilate. They do indeed speak of Christians, but not of Jesus himself in any historical sense. I live in modern Israel and there is nothing here that historically proves that a Jew named Jesus of Nazareth lived here under Herod the Great / Herod Antipas / Pontius Pilate.

A man whose teachings have uplifted mankind and impacted history. A religion of 2 billion followers. And yet despite all this, with the possible lone exception of the Shroud of Turin, there is simply nothing here. I find this extraordinary.


 

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To anyone who is open-minded about the issue, there is little persuasive evidence for the biblical Jesus. Convincing references from independent sources to this supposedly important person have not been found. Like the bible itself, the tiny number of mentions are clearly fabrications by people trying to prove a point.

A good discussion can be found here: http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html
 

The Truth-Bringer

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Some of the Biblical Events have proven existence, yet others lack proof or are very skeptical. Some of the points are logically contradicting, and other points have been proven wrong. That is not to say though that all of the bible is wrong, because it was written by many many men, throughout 2000 years, so obviously they either interpretated their word from god differently, or they thought these things through differently, or witnessed them differently. Some items in the bible are proven true, But only faintly, such as that a Person Called Jesus Christ Existed, and was crucified around The year 0 AD. That has been proven, but not wether or not he was divinely blessed or had god-powers. But just because something has no proof , doesnt mean its incorrect, for if its stilll possible. A Thing cannot be possible when it contradicts itself though.
Some now disproven items that the bible insists upon are such as; The world being flat, which from observation and science, it is seemingly to be round. Some other things are contradictory, such as the Existence of what the bible describes as a ; Omnipotent (All-Powerful), Completly Good and Pure God, Yet Evil Exists (One cannot deny that Evil Exists). This is, after one things of it, a Logical Contradiction. Here is why:

If God was Wholly Good, Then a Wholly good person would want to stop evil, or avoid creating evil. But Evil exists, yet god is also omnipotent, which gives him the ability to stop evil, or stop creating it. But if he is wholly good, then why didnt he do that already? Because either he is Not Wholly Good, Or He Is not All-Powerful Completly. ( This argument has been suported by several other philosophers in history). So thus this implies that a Wholly Good, Omnipotent God, who created a world in which evil exists, Cannot Exist.

This does not mean Divine spirits or a lesser form of God cannot exist. It just proves that it is logically impossible (And thus impossible) for a Omnipotent, Pure Good, God to exist with evil still in existence. This could mean either that god is not wholly good or not all powerful, or that there are many gods, and so on.

I personally believe it that God exists, and is whollly good, but is not all powerful. He could have created the universe, and all that such, but here is my theory: He cannot destroy what he creates, (Personally Destruction, Such as Killing One Single Evil Being)but tries to create new things to try to block the evil. And also is my theory that he does not Know All of what will happen, for that is why he originally made the mistake of creating evil, not knowing what damage it would have done. That is my Theory.
 
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Thinker

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I am curious as to what you mean by "Some items in the bible are proven true,
But only faintly, such as that a Person Called Jesus Christ Existed".

A proposition is either proved or not proved; that's the whole point of a proof.
I have seen no convincing evidence of the existence of the biblical Jesus, let
alone proof. If you have some (actual proof, not just assertions that it exists)
it would be helpful to produce it.
 

Tashah

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I am curious on that statement as well. There is no factual evidence... only the memoirs of followers. The problem with New Testament narratives is that the authors had a theological agenda, so one cannot consider them as historical documents. These narratives were also edited numerous times to divorce them from their Judaic roots and to further refine Christian theology.

The same historical/theological problems exist in many portions of Torah. Take the life of King David for example. If you examine the story closely, then one must arrive at the conclusion that there were actually two David's... one is the shepard boy David who slew Goliath and the other is King David of Israel. They cannot have been the same person. Given the historical and chronological information in the narrative text, one can come to no other conclusion.

There are indeed things in scripture that are historically accurate... and other things that can only be described as articles of faith.


 

The Truth-Bringer

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Yes, I know that Many events of those are encouraged and believed to be true simply by scripture...but still, Due to that no proof has been found YET, doesnt mean it didnt exist. I dont really know what kind of proof is to be looked for , to confirm the existence of Jesus, but still, its like with many events...
 

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If I were to postulate something bizarre, for example, that the centre of the moon is made of chocolate, you would not expect everyone to take it as a fact until they managed to prove it false. Why then would it be different for something like the existence of a figure from a work of fiction?

The burden of proof rests with those who assert that the biblical accounts of someone called Jesus have any basis in fact. So far, they have not managed to produce any evidence that stands scrutiny.
 

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flip2 said:
Can you lay out some proof, some irrefutable evidence of any event ever occurring? I mean, I've been called stupid and idiotic for believing in the Bible. I just want to make sure the crack I'm taking is pure and not synthetic.
Hey Flip.

I gotta tell ya. A question like this concerns me.

If you believe it to be true already...why do you now need proof?

Now, I'm not calling you any names at all, but...by your above statements it sounds as though you haven't thought things through.
 

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flip2 said:
I watched a documentary about Noah's Ark and the Great Flood. They showed footage of what appeared to be a very large, wooden, rectangular frame under snow in some mountain range in I forget where. And not far from that piece was another piece that appeared to be the other half.
This was in Turkey.

It was later discovered that what appeared to be a very large, wooden rectangular frame under the snow was actually the result of mudslides forming a very large rectangular shape.
 

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Soviet_Guy said:
The Great Flood: Evidence found in the ground far below usuall surface levels in the Middle East, indicate there was a flood around the area of South West Turkey, and " Mesopotamia " present day Iraq.
There was also several floods all around the world all throughout history. That doesn't make it absolute proof that there was a Great Flood that happened all over the Earth at the exact same time.

Soviet_Guy said:
Jesus Christ: The evidence on Jesus is overwhelming, try reading some books or watch a bit of television, just skim through the channels and you're bound to find something.
Yes, do read some books. There's actually more than one. One in particular is called "The Jesus Mysteries: Was the Original Jesus a Pagan God?" by Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy.
 

StillPhil

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The Truth-Bringer said:
Yes, I know that Many events of those are encouraged and believed to be true simply by scripture...
Alright.

The Truth-Bringer said:
but still, Due to that no proof has been found YET, doesnt mean it didnt exist.
There's been no proof of Unicorns either. Doesn't mean they don't exist. But if I choose to believe in Unicorns I sure as heck better have some evidence before I start insisting that others believe in them.

The Truth-Bringer said:
I dont really know what kind of proof is to be looked for , to confirm the existence of Jesus, but still, its like with many events...
This way of thinking is common of Conclusions-First, Facts-Second. Don't come to a conclusion before you have facts. Draw conclusions based on the discovery of facts.
 

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Tashah said:
There are indeed things in scripture that are historically accurate... and other things that can only be described as articles of faith.


Exactly right.
 

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The Truth-Bringer said:
Some now disproven items that the bible insists upon are such as; The world being flat, which from observation and science, it is seemingly to be round. Some other things are contradictory, such as the Existence of what the bible describes as a ; Omnipotent (All-Powerful), Completly Good and Pure God, Yet Evil Exists (One cannot deny that Evil Exists). This is, after one things of it, a Logical Contradiction.
The Bible stating the world is flat does not seem correct to me, can you show me where it states this?

Evil exists because of free agency. It is so fundamental to existence that "temporary" suffering by the innocent is allowed, in my view. Everyone will stand before the judgement bar of God after this life.
 

The Truth-Bringer

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That Thing though about God cannot being good, all-powerful , and yet evil exists still is true...The Free-Will argument is still mildly flawed. If god was good, he would give us the will to only choose good decisions, but if he was Wishing to give us free will, he would give us more powers than just these petty ones, like more things to enjoy our lives, more freedom and such, more "supernatural Ablities", yet he didnt, he setttled in between, so he did not believe free will nor Free will for good things was what he wanted , and what he wanted made us miserable and cause harm to others.
 

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The Truth-Bringer said:
That Thing though about God cannot being good, all-powerful , and yet evil exists still is true... The Free-Will argument is still mildly flawed. If god was good, he would give us the will to only choose good decisions, but if he was Wishing to give us free will, he would give us more powers than just these petty ones, like more things to enjoy our lives, more freedom and such, more "supernatural Ablities", yet he didnt, he setttled in between, so he did not believe free will nor Free will for good things was what he wanted , and what he wanted made us miserable and cause harm to others.
Even worse. Choice cannot exist. Think further:

- "Every action causes a reaction"

Chosing would result in an action appearing out of nothing, which is impossible.

- If you claim that you can "choose", then you must think in order to think, because otherwise your thoughts were a result.

Now how can this be? You must think to think => think => think ....
There has to be a beginning and you do not control it. Every person is a consequence of reactions.

We believe that we have "free will", because we have doubt. But again doubt is a reaction upon prior actions. There is no single argument that supports choice, chance, free will, ...

- And one last argument: If you never had the same circumstance twice, how can you now that you made a "choice"? I

In this case it's ridiculous to consider "choice", because claiming that "choice" exists is contradicting "time". Time is a straight infinite line and it has one series of events. There is one solution in reality, one truth only.

The idea of "choice" is flawed and you cannot deny it. I live however in this illusion not to become mad, but I do deny the flawed idea of "choice". Choice is illusion.


Now back to topic:


The Truth-Bringer said:
Yes, I know that Many events of those are encouraged and believed to be true simply by scripture...but still, Due to that no proof has been found YET, doesnt mean it didnt exist. I dont really know what kind of proof is to be looked for , to confirm the existence of Jesus, but still, its like with many events...
JESUS:
Jesus did most likely not exist:
- Roman literature did not mention him.

Romans in Archaic Age were known for their flexibility. They conquered several civilizations and took elements of their culture. Soon the Roman Empire became a mix of cultures within. Jesus was not mentioned in literature.

- His grave was not found.

- No coins with his face on it were made.

- The town "Nazareth" never existed.

Every name (not first name) of a person has some meaning. Jesus was called "Jesus of Nazareth", which means he had to be born in the town Nazareth. Such a place did not exist.

THE ARC OF NOAH
-----------------
Another ridiculous story. You remember the Tsunami in South East Asia, I hope. Well, imagine such a giant flood crawled upon the Earth. The whole soil would be destroyed for centuries.

Another argument is that Noah could simply not collect two examples (male & female) of each animal race and ship it within his arc. There are thousands of different kinds of insecs as a simple example (spiders, ants, ... cannot fly, thus must be transported).

Some animals also can only survive within certain conditions. Noah cannot have transported polar bears, because of the difference of temperature.

A final argument is that if the entire Earth would ever have been covered with water, it would most likely still be. Land decreases with 2 cm each year at each cost. I have never known that an entire ocean got vaporised. This is simply ridiculous.

Five: Where did the water come from?

OTHER
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I'm sorry, but read once the first five pages of Genesis. First there is the creation story, which is in contradiction with evolution. A very clear definition of day is given, thus it cannot have occured.

There are plenty more flaws such as flawed life expectancy. The first families of humans shaped by God (sons of Adam and Eve) would have lived hundreds of years. Nowadays we don't even have that life expectancy range (approximately 77 years, I think).


As for spiritual creation, it is quite much harder, but using common logic, one can conclude that a God cannot exist. Every question regarding creation of nature can be reverted to God. The creation (spiritual) of nature is impossible; it raises far much more questions than in a scientific/philosophical cause/result ideology.
 
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