Dershowitz: I Don't See Any Crimes in Mueller Memos.

[maxparrish]

They are not "characterizations", they are what the people involved have ADMITTED to. You don't have to take my word for it, George Papadapolous ADMITTED he worked with Russian officials. Michael Cohen ADMITTED he was in regular contact with Russian officials. Don Trump Jr. ADMITTED, via email, sitting with Russian officials to get Clinton dirt. Michael Flynn ADMITTED to work with Russian officials on sanctions. Jeff Sessions ADMITTED to meeting with the Russian spy chief Kisylak.

Of course they are characterizations, which is an opinion of a thing or event's distinctive nature. And if we take your opinion at face value, it means to accept it as is - which I only did for the sake of argument.

However, Papadopoulos was not representing the Trump campaign to "collude" with Russia, he was very much free-lancing on his own and he was told to stand down on his attempts to get Trump to travel to Russia. Cohen was involuntarily contacted for a requested "synergy" meeting, and it never passed on or acted on, not vice versa. Flynn, after the elections admitted to doing what transition team members do - discuss with foreign officials their expectations of the incoming administration. And yes Sessions did meet with Russians, in his capacity as a Senator and member of the armed services committee (and sub-committee on terrorism and homeland security)...a very typical interaction.

Contact or interaction are not a synonyms for collusion, your implication being that it was secret cooperation or conspiracy for illegal purposes. Confirming the existence of dirt on an opponent that comes to nothing is not collusion. Getting a message that someone wants to set up a meeting, that is never setup is not collusion. The incoming DIA Director talking to a representative of the Russian government is not collusion. And a member of the Senate Foreign Relations committee have a meeting with a Russian official is not collusion.

These are 'the truths' not only from the mouths of those who "committed the deed" of (gasp) talking to a Russian, but of any nitwit that understands the definition and implication of words - which, apparently, you don't.

It has ALL the relevancy to collusion.

Sure, and an oven is relevant to lasagna, but that does not make them the same. There is NO evidence of collusion with the Russians to facilitate their illegal interference in US elections - ZIPPO. And there IS LESS THAN ZERO evidence for an actual conspiracy to commit an illegal act with the Russians.

Until you show otherwise, your rantings must be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Chomsky]

None of that shows trump knew he was directing someone to commit a crime if it was one. What's missing is Cohen informing him it was s crime and trump telling him to do it anyhow

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I think there's enough displayed by Trump's elaborate actions and schemes in the matter, to show consciousness of guilt. It would be interesting to see what a jury thinks. Trump better hope I'm not on it.

And of course we still don't know what Cohen may attest to, or may have recorded in some manner, concerning Trump's understanding.

 

[Chomsky]

Where are the people who run our so-called justice system?

See that is always the problem, from any direction their work is looked at it sucks.

It looks like they're producing a prodigious amount of indictments and pleas to me, Hawkeye,

 

[MovingPictures]

The bolded is a key point. Even if it never comes to charges while he is in office, or perhaps not even any charges at all, the DOJ is claiming the President directed felonious crimes; crimes which came to fruition under his direction.

And the most amazing thing, something I don't believe I've ever heard of, is it was the DOJ - Trump's own government - that accused him. It isn't being done by the Special Counsel, like with Nixon; it's being done by the government. This may be history here, and I find this far more dire than if Mueller would have made the accusation.

With his criminality and obstruction of justice, Trump is ripping the government and the Constitution apart. We're really in a bad place, here.

No, there's nothing Trump can do.

He's been caught in a felony that he will have to face when he is a citizen again, and no amount of temper tantrums is going to change that. Trump might be able to finish out his term, but this is not going to fade away like all of his other problems.

If the Mueller investigation reveals that Trump has illegally used his office to encite perjury and obstruction of the Russia investigation, his legal problems might become to serious to remain in office, and he might need a pardon.

I smell a possible resignation.

 

[trouble13]

The bolded is a key point. Even if it never comes to charges while he is in office, or perhaps not even any charges at all, the DOJ is claiming the President directed felonious crimes; crimes which came to fruition under his direction.

And the most amazing thing, something I don't believe I've ever heard of, is it was the DOJ - Trump's own government - that accused him. It isn't being done by the Special Counsel, like with Nixon; it's being done by the government. This may be history here, and I find this far more dire than if Mueller would have made the accusation.

With his criminality and obstruction of justice, Trump is ripping the government and the Constitution apart. We're really in a bad place, here.

Let's assume trump did what they claim. Is it really the crime of the century that he tried to conceal an extramarital affair by paying women off to stay silent or to do it in a way that protected his identity if anyone came snooping?

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[trouble13]

I think there's enough displayed by Trump's elaborate actions and schemes in the matter, to show consciousness of guilt. It would be interesting to see what a jury thinks. Trump better hope I'm not on it.

And of course we still don't know what Cohen may attest to, or may have recorded in some manner, concerning Trump's understanding.

I can understand why you feel as you do. I'm not convinced that trump knew he was committing a crime or that what he did was a crime. I am open to letting the prosecution make its case to a judge and if it gets past that point in front of jury

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[Chomsky]

No, there's nothing Trump can do.

He's been caught in a felony that he will have to face when he is a citizen again, and no amount of temper tantrums is going to change that. Trump might be able to finish out his term, but this is not going to fade away like all of his other problems.

If the Mueller investigation reveals that Trump has illegally used his office to encite perjury and obstruction of the Russia investigation, his legal problems might become to serious to remain in office, and he might need a pardon.

I smell a possible resignation.

I don't think I see a resignation, because the GOP need Trump; he owns their base. However, you are right in that he has to figure-out a way to get a pardon for civilian life. But even so, I think he'll be facing tons of money-laundering and other state-level crimes in NY State jurisdictions. I suspect his org is going to get thrashed.

 

[Chomsky]

I can understand why you feel as you do. I'm not convinced that trump knew he was committing a crime or that what he did was a crime. I am open to letting the prosecution make its case to a judge and if it gets past that point in front of jury

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To the bolded:

Well, yeah. That's what needs to be done. Regardless of what any of us believe or theorize. We've got to abide by the rule of law.

 

[Chomsky]

Let's assume trump did what they claim. Is it really the crime of the century that he tried to conceal an extramarital affair by paying women off to stay silent or to do it in a way that protected his identity if anyone came snooping?

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He committed campaign violations, to get elected. They may not be the highest felonies in the land. I'm not really sure what should be done here, to be honest. But if he knowingly did it cognizant of it being illegal, then I have no problem with throwing the book at him. He's illegally influencing the democratic process. Those laws are in place explicitly so the voters have transparency, allowing them to cast an informed ballot. Trump usurped that.

 

[trouble13]

To the bolded:

Well, yeah. That's what needs to be done. Regardless of what any of us believe or theorize. We've got to abide by the rule of law.

Exactly, I'm tired of all the cloak n dagger behavior from both sides. Make your case in plain view and let the rest of us form an informed opinion. Until that happens I'm not taking either side.

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[MovingPictures]

I don't think I see a resignation, because the GOP need Trump; he owns their base. However, you are right in that he has to figure-out a way to get a pardon for civilian life. But even so, I think he'll be facing tons of money-laundering and other state-level crimes in NY State jurisdictions. I suspect his org is going to get thrashed.

This POS is going to have hell waiting for him when he's a civilian again, which is poetic justice for the rest of us.

 

[trouble13]

He committed campaign violations, to get elected. They may not be the highest felonies in the land. I'm not really sure what should be done here, to be honest. But if he knowingly did it cognizant of it being illegal, then I have no problem with throwing the book at him. He's illegally influencing the democratic process. Those laws are in place explicitly so the voters have transparency, allowing them to cast an informed ballot. Trump usurped that.

I respect that and would normally agree with you. I am a firm believer that the people in charge of making and enforcing laws should be held to the highest standard.

However I think it's unfair to hold trump to a higher standard and more rigid level of accountability than they hold others. Campaign finance laws are a fairly common violation because they are so complex that nobody really understands them. They are typically resolved as a civil matter.

Obama was found in violation of them from his 2000 campaign to the tune of 340k. It was handled as a civil matter and nobody suggested he be impeached over it or indicted criminally after he left office. Seems kind of unfair to expect trump to be subjected to a more severe level just because some people dont like him.

Further more if we do go down that road I certainly will expect that everyone is held to this same standard from here on out. If not it's just partisan prosecution and there really will be a constitutional crisis taking place.

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[Fletch]

Hahahahahaha!!!

Trump supporters are now having to flat out lie.

The amount of PUBLIC evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia has been well-established. The fact you are so willing to post lies about it suggests dishonesty so great it is almost incomprehensible. Hell, just today Mueller filed a memorandum alongside the SDNY about Cohen which clearly shows discussions involving "highly lucrative" projects between Cohen, Trump and Russia, not to mention the fact Cohen discussed with Trump about meeting with Russian officials BEFORE he made the offer to Russian officials.

For God's sake, if you're going to lie, don't be so obvious about it.

How stupid. Please point to the actual crime. Better yet, point to the high crime. You wont. You cant. What you can do and will do is continue to spread lies about it though.

 

[haymarket]

Ray Charles can see the crime and he has the double handicap of being blind and dead. Of course, that might be considered a distinct advantage over Dershowitz.

 

[Fletch]

This POS is going to have hell waiting for him when he's a civilian again, which is poetic justice for the rest of us.

NOt true. But thanks for demonstrating your real interests and motivations here--vengeance. You are so consumed with hatred that you cant think straight. Like every other hateful leftist, you dont just want the man defeated politically, you want him and everyone around him destroyed personally and financially and brought up on any frivolous charge imaginable. You have become the very thing you purport to hate--fascist.

 

[Fletch]

Ray Charles can see the crime and he has the double handicap of being blind and dead. Of course, that might be considered a distinct advantage over Dershowitz.

Great! Since it is so obvious, lay out exactly how Trump colluded/conspired with the Russians and who all was involved.

 

[haymarket]

Great! Since it is so obvious, lay out exactly how Trump colluded/conspired with the Russians and who all was involved.

You have already been told what the crime was but you prefer denial. So what is the point of me telling you what you have been already told by others in this same thread?

but lets see you play ostrich with this

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/07/politics/michael-cohen-robert-mueller-donald-trump/index.html

New York (CNN)Federal prosecutors said for the first time Friday that Michael Cohen acted at the direction of Donald Trump when the former fixer committed two election-related crimes during the 2016 presidential campaign, as special counsel Robert Mueller outlined a previously undisclosed set of overtures and contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian nationals.

That is a federal crime committed by Trump.

 

[Fletch]

You have already been told what the crime was but you prefer denial. So what is the point of me telling you what you have been already told by others in this same thread?

Not true. Not one person has laid out how Trump engaged with Russia in any way to tamper with the election. What we do know is that its easier for you to just lie about it then actually present evidence though.

 

[haymarket]

Not true. Not one person has laid out how Trump engaged with Russia in any way to tamper with the election. What we do know is that its easier for you to just lie about it then actually present evidence though.

here is more for your ostrich imitation

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profil...dent-of-the-united-states-committed-a-felony/

On approximately June 16, 2015, Individual-1, for whom Cohen worked at the time, began an ultimately successful campaign for President of the United States. Cohen had no formal title with the campaign, but had a campaign email address, and, at various times advised the campaign, including on matters of interest to the press. Cohen also made media appearances as a surrogate and supporter of Individual-1. During the campaign, Cohen played a central role in two similar schemes to purchase the rights to stories – each from women who claimed to have had an affair with Individual-1 – so as to suppress the stories and thereby prevent them from influencing the election. With respect to both payments, Cohen acted with the intent to influence the 2016 presidential election. Cohen coordinated his actions with one or more members of the campaign, including through meetings and phone calls, about the fact, nature, and timing of the payments.

and

Then came to key line: “In particular, and as Cohen himself has now admitted, with respect to both payments, he acted in coordination with and at the direction of Individual-1.”

We already knew that when Cohen entered a guilty plea in the SDNY he admitted that Individual-1 “directed” him to commit campaign finance violations by arranging hush payments to porn star Stormy Daniels and Playboy model Karen McDougal.

and from the Associated Press reporting yesterdays main story

Federal prosecutors said on Friday that President Trump directed illegal payments to ward off a potential sex scandal that threatened his chances of winning the White House in 2016, putting the weight of the Justice Department behind accusations previously made by his former lawyer.

The lawyer, Michael D. Cohen, had said that as the election neared, Mr. Trump directed payments to two women who claimed they had affairs with Mr. Trump. But in a new memo arguing for a prison term for Mr. Cohen, prosecutors in Manhattan said he “acted in coordination and at the direction of” an unnamed individual, clearly referring to Mr. Trump.

You asked for a crime Trump committed. You have been provided with just that.

 

[Fletch]

here is more for your ostrich imitation

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profil...dent-of-the-united-states-committed-a-felony/



and


You asked for a crime Trump committed. You have bene provided with just that.

I asked about Russia, specifically. And you answered with campaign finance issues. That is purposeful dishonesty on your part. It seems to be past time that you man up and admit that your two year cries of 'collusion' have been lies.

 

[Athanasius68]

here is more for your ostrich imitation

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profil...dent-of-the-united-states-committed-a-felony/



and


You asked for a crime Trump committed. You have bene provided with just that.

As the various tweets indicate, federal election law require intent as a component. Cohen is a lawyer; he would be expected to know or to perform due dilligence. Trump isnt a lawyer.

 

[haymarket]

I asked about Russia, specifically. And you answered with campaign finance issues. That is purposeful dishonesty on your part. It seems to be past time that you man up and admit that your two year cries of 'collusion' have been lies.

What is there about this sentence that so confuses and befuddles you?:
Donald Trump committed a crime during his campaign for president.


We know this already from the Federal filings of prosecutors.

You are posting in a thread titled: Dershowitz: I Don't See Any Crimes in Mueller Memos.

The crimes the delusional Dershowitz refuses to see are right there and have ben referred to with citations and evidence.

 

[Athanasius68]

What is there about this sentence that so confuses and befuddles you?:
Donald Trump committed a crime during his campaign for president.


We know this already from the Federal filings of prosecutors.

John Edwards was criminally acquitted for the same thing. Even though he is a lawyer, was involved in the details of the payoff, and admitted it.
The Trump camp can pay a civil fine as did Edwards, and we can all move along.

 

[haymarket]

John Edwards was criminally acquitted for the same thing. Even though he is a lawyer, was involved in the details of the payoff, and admitted it.
The Trump camp can pay a civil fine as did Edwards, and we can all move along.

You are aware the the fact that Donald Trump is not John Edwards are you not?

Yes, person A might be tried for First Degree Murder and be acquitted while person B might be tried for First Degree Murder and be convicted in a different case. The acquittal in case A is not evidence that case B must be without merit.

That is what your argument is attempting to do.

These are two separate cases.

 

[haymarket]

As the various tweets indicate, federal election law require intent as a component. Cohen is a lawyer; he would be expected to know or to perform due dilligence. Trump isnt a lawyer.

People who are not lawyers commit crimes every day. You do NOT have to be a lawyer to commit a crime or know you are violating the law. Many of them even have their own lawyer or lawyers when they committed the offense and still did it. Trump had lawyers. Trump intended to cover up his two affairs so it would not hurt his campaign for president. That is clear in the filings yesterday.