Dems now openly supporting murder

[roguenuke]

Then there is also this.



Willing to sacrifice a 10 year old so that there are fewer abortions.

 

[Luckyone]

A 35 week old is not a life . Got it. I’m sure the millions who are actually born at that age every year would disagree.

I am not here to give you my personal opinion, as you are doing. I gave you the "official and legal" definition of life.

In your OP, you called it murder by the Democrats. Officially and legally it is not murder given that until the fetus leaves the womb of the mother and starts breathing, it is not alive. It is your OP that is deficient in its definition.

You want to put up an OP that gives (and asks) for opinions on whether people consider the killing of a fetus wrong (morally) that is fine. Nonetheless, you do not have the right to call it murder as murder is a legal definition of a crime of killing a person that is alive.

States have the right to call it whatever they want but on a debate board that spans all states and also the rest of the world, you are stating something that is opinion and not fact.

Simple as that.

You do this constantly with your OP's. They are not the truth but biased opinion.

 

[multivita-man]

yea- never happens, right?

Fascinating article in the shared content. Admittedly, some parts are a bit disturbing, and a reminder of why people oppose abortion rights. I support legal abortion, but I understand why some don't.

 

[bongsaway]

there is plenty of room for debate on what constitutes a human life in early stages of pregnancy. But only a troglydite would argure that it's NOT a human life in the late stages.

CARDIN: Well, we support Roe v. Wade. We thought that was established law. It was established law for almost 50 years. The Supreme Court decision was a radical decision that reversed the rights of women to make their own health-care decisions. So we support Roe v. Wade, we support the right of women to be able to make their own decisions about their reproductive rights, and it shouldn’t be subservient to what state legislatures are doing.

BREAM: But what about the states where it’s actually legal up until the due date? Is that something Democrats support?

CARDIN: We support the right of women to make their own decisions. This is a personal decision made by women with the advice of their doctors and their family, and we don’t think we should try to tell women when they can make those decisions.

BREAM: Is there a cut-off for you before that point?

CARDIN: No, to me, it’s a reproductive — it’s a health-care
The position explicitly articulated by Cardin is shared by every Democrat but one in the Senate and one in the House who back the Women’s Health Protection Act (WHPA).

Of course when you pander for votes, principles go out the window, not that many DEms have them in the first place. The ends justify the means has always been the calling card of Des,
The end being getting those offices!

Democrats support choice for the woman, why do so many republicans have such a hard time understanding we put more importance on a grown woman than a fetus?

 

[bongsaway]

A 35 week old is not a life . Got it. I’m sure the millions who are actually born at that age every year would disagree.

If anyone has a witch and a stake they aren't using please contact @KLATTU.

 

[Superfly]

He states that the latest he normally performs an abortion is at 32 weeks. There are very rare exceptions, almost certainly for life of mother going through further pregnancy w/ risk rather than your suggestion that it was some other reason.

He makes it seem like a woman is like, “Ok. Drop off his suits at the cleaners, go get a manicure, pick up a nice standing rib roast for dinner, get that abortion that I’ve been putting off, buy some wine on the way home, and pick up the kids from school.”

 

[Superfly]

Nonetheless, you do not have the right to call it murder as murder is a legal definition of a crime of killing a person that is alive.

Even then, the taking of a life is not always murder.

Murder is the taking of a life with malice aforethought. He is so far away from the definition of murder that it’s actually comical.

 

[multivita-man]

Then there is also this.



Willing to sacrifice a 10 year old so that there are fewer abortions.

To be fair, I don't think the author of that tweet views it as an eyes-wide-open sacrifice, but rather the collateral price that is paid by some in order to save the other fetuses from destruction. It's similar to how we feel about regarding late-term abortions of viable fetuses or an early-term abortion for reasons that might be bordering on the frivolous, like sex selection.

 

[roguenuke]

To be fair, I don't think the author of that tweet views it as an eyes-wide-open sacrifice, but rather the collateral price that is paid by some in order to save the other fetuses from destruction. It's similar to how we feel about regarding late-term abortions of viable fetuses or an early-term abortion for reasons that might be bordering on the frivolous, like sex selection.

Late term abortions is a misnomer. Less than .1% of abortions occur after viability, and that's base viability of 24 weeks, where 50% can survive if born at that week and given immediate care. Almost all of those abortions are in fact done for reasons like maternal health, life, or fetal abnormalities. Some even for rape, possibly of that very young girl who was raped and didn't even realize she may be pregnant or was raped until after.

 

[multivita-man]

Late term abortions is a misnomer. Less than .1% of abortions occur after viability, and that's base viability of 24 weeks, where 50% can survive if born at that week and given immediate care. Almost all of those abortions are in fact done for reasons like maternal health, life, or fetal abnormalities.

Not really disagreeing with this, but late-term abortions do happen, just like 10-year-old pregnancies happen.

 

[roguenuke]

Not really disagreeing with this, but late-term abortions do happen, just like 10-year-old pregnancies happen.

And again, late term is a misnomer. Describe what you mean exactly by that.

 

[phoenix2020]

A 35 week old is not a life . Got it. I’m sure the millions who are actually born at that age every year would disagree.

Until birth, the fetus is not an a person. You're welcome to fantasize that this isn't the case because of your sky person mythology, but the law is on my side, not yours, and we will not tolerate any attempt by you to force your mythology upon the silent majority of Americans.

 

[multivita-man]

And again, late term is a misnomer. Describe what you mean exactly by that.

I mean after the 2nd trimester.

 

[roguenuke]

I mean after the 2nd trimester.

When doctors only perform abortions for reasons such as maternal life/health or severe fetal problems? There is no actual info on even how many abortions are performed at this stage because there are so few. You don't go past 6 months gestation, knowing you are pregnant and simply get an abortion. Since there are only 4 doctors in the US that even perform such abortions in a clinical setting (so outside an absolute emergency), most wouldn't have access to getting an abortion at that time from any of those (even if they were all willing to perform one for a healthy pregnancy).

This is the problem. People act as if some huge number of people are having abortions on a whim or healthy pregnancies during the 3rd Trimester. There's a point where the safety of performing an abortion goes way down compared to the safety of simply remaining pregnant, giving birth, unless there are actual medical concerns. So there wouldn't be a point legitimate point.

If he thinks it’s safer for them to have an abortion than to carry and deliver the baby, he’ll take the case—usually up until around 32 weeks, with some rare later exceptions, because of the increased risk of hemorrhage and other life-threatening conditions beyond that point.

The Abortion Absolutist

Warren Hern has been performing late abortions for half a century. After Roe, he is as busy with patients as ever.

www.theatlantic.com

How many of the 50k abortions performed on 19 and younger in 2019 in the US were of those under 13?

Reported Legal Abortions by Age Group Within the State of Occurrence

www.kff.org

I'm willing to bet far more than those having an abortion past 32 weeks gestation, regardless of reasons.

 

[eohrnberger]

Europe is lied about by pro-birthers often. Many European countries have exceptions for severe fetal problems, life/ health of mother (not just life) and even in some places financial situation of mother. They also pay for abortions in many of those countries. So those are seriously different factors.

Most women were pretty much fine with Roe/Casey being in place. It wasn't leftwing extremists pushing to change anything.

It was the extreme right, and they have put a lot of women in danger, taken away our rights.

There, fixed it for ya.

 

[roguenuke]

There, fixed it for ya.

No, it wasn't the extreme right that brought down Roe or enacted numerous laws restricting abortions to the point where women are seriously in danger in about 25 states in the last year. It was simply the right.

 

[multivita-man]

When doctors only perform abortions for reasons such as maternal life/health or severe fetal problems?

That's not necessarily accurate. From the same article:

The Abortion Absolutist

Warren Hern has been performing late abortions for half a century. After Roe, he is as busy with patients as ever.

www.theatlantic.com

Abortions that come after devastating medical diagnoses can be easier for some people to understand. But Hern estimates that at least half, and sometimes more, of the women who come to the clinic do not have these diagnoses. He and his staff are just as sympathetic to other circumstances. Many of the clinic’s teenage patients receive later abortions because they had no idea they were pregnant. Some sexual-assault victims ignore their pregnancies or feel too ashamed to see a doctor. Once, a staffer named Catherine told me, a patient opted for a later abortion because her husband had killed himself and she was suddenly broke. “There isn’t a single woman who has ever written on her bucket list that she wants to have a late abortion,” Catherine said. “There is always a reason.”

I read the above to mean that these abortions terminate otherwise viable late-term fetuses. I understand the argument for still going through with these abortions, but I also understand why people are repulsed by the idea.

There is no actual info on even how many abortions are performed at this stage because there are so few. You don't go past 6 months gestation, knowing you are pregnant and simply get an abortion. Since there are only 4 doctors in the US that even perform such abortions in a clinical setting (so outside an absolute emergency), most wouldn't have access to getting an abortion at that time from any of those (even if they were all willing to perform one for a healthy pregnancy).

This is the problem. People act as if some huge number of people are having abortions on a whim or healthy pregnancies during the 3rd Trimester. There's a point where the safety of performing an abortion goes way down compared to the safety of simply remaining pregnant, giving birth, unless there are actual medical concerns. So there wouldn't be a point legitimate point.

The Abortion Absolutist

Warren Hern has been performing late abortions for half a century. After Roe, he is as busy with patients as ever.

www.theatlantic.com

Understand all of that, but the same argument is made by anti-abortion activists: how many pregnant 10-year-olds are there?

 

[eohrnberger]

No, it wasn't the extreme right that brought down Roe or enacted numerous laws restricting abortions to the point where women are seriously in danger in about 25 states in the last year. It was simply the right.

Two separate things and two separate groups of people.

One is the SCOTUS ruling on legal grounds correcting a previously legally speaking wrong or bad decision. This turned the question over to the States.

Some of the State legislators have gone beyond the middle I was describing earlier.

 

[BirdinHand]

Abortion =\= murder.

 

[roguenuke]

Two separate things and two separate groups of people.

One is the SCOTUS ruling on legal grounds correcting a previously legally speaking wrong or bad decision. This turned the question over to the States.

Some of the State legislators have gone beyond the middle I was describing earlier.

Both of those involved rightwing politics and religious views being used to enact laws that severely restrict rights of women in the US.

 

[eohrnberger]

Both of those involved rightwing politics and religious views being used to enact laws that severely restrict rights of women in the US.

. . . and extend some protection for the lives and pain of the unborn.

We can continue to try to find some common ground, but it doesn't seem to be likely. Oh well.

 

[roguenuke]

That's not necessarily accurate. From the same article:

The Abortion Absolutist

Warren Hern has been performing late abortions for half a century. After Roe, he is as busy with patients as ever.

www.theatlantic.com

I read the above to mean that these abortions terminate otherwise viable late-term fetuses. I understand the argument for still going through with these abortions, but I also understand why people are repulsed by the idea.



Understand all of that, but the same argument is made by anti-abortion activists: how many pregnant 10-year-olds are there?

Because he does abortions before that time too, that's the point. Most of those abortions were performed prior to the 32 weeks, but after viability or even possibly 20 weeks, where Roe was set so that's also where many judge the point of where specialist doctors are set up, available for such abortions. The vast majority of the abortions he performs are before 32 weeks. Those after are rare and rely on other factors, due to the risk from such an abortion. That was pretty clear in the reading.

I used to be against abortions, believed in heartbeat laws. You can find me in these arguments years ago on this site. I changed my view after talking with others, seeing the price that women, girls pay when we restrict abortions. And that was long before Roe went down.

Likely a good number and likely most of those are going to need an abortion. But there's a reason I stated 13, since it's hard to argue that an 11 or 12 year old or younger than 10 would fair well carrying a pregnancy to term either. So then even at 1% of our 50k number (likely it isn't even that low), that is still 500 abortions among under 13. That's pretty equivalent to a .1% of all abortions (again, this is likely a high estimate) performed after 32 weeks for any reason, right around 600 (since both numbers should come from CDC).

 

[NolanVoyd]

there is plenty of room for debate on what constitutes a human life in early stages of pregnancy. But only a troglydite would argure that it's NOT a human life in the late stages.

CARDIN: Well, we support Roe v. Wade. We thought that was established law. It was established law for almost 50 years. The Supreme Court decision was a radical decision that reversed the rights of women to make their own health-care decisions. So we support Roe v. Wade, we support the right of women to be able to make their own decisions about their reproductive rights, and it shouldn’t be subservient to what state legislatures are doing.

BREAM: But what about the states where it’s actually legal up until the due date? Is that something Democrats support?

CARDIN: We support the right of women to make their own decisions. This is a personal decision made by women with the advice of their doctors and their family, and we don’t think we should try to tell women when they can make those decisions.

BREAM: Is there a cut-off for you before that point?

CARDIN: No, to me, it’s a reproductive — it’s a health-care
The position explicitly articulated by Cardin is shared by every Democrat but one in the Senate and one in the House who back the Women’s Health Protection Act (WHPA).

Of course when you pander for votes, principles go out the window, not that many DEms have them in the first place. The ends justify the means has always been the calling card of Des,
The end being getting those offices!

Dems now openly supporting murder​

Republicans continue there pattern of blatantly lying about Democrats.

 

[roguenuke]

. . . and extend some protection for the lives of the unborn.

We can continue to try to find some common ground, but it doesn't seem to be likely. Oh well.

Unborn put women in danger via pregnancy. They shouldn't have protections.

 

[Pound4abrown]

Wow you sure showed me!

To be fair, it isn't like it is hard.
I can't wait until religious nuts back legislators into a corner and we start assessing Child Support from the moment of implementation.
That'll be a ****ing hoot.