Dems must pursue justice or else

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Trump may actually get away with getting a pardon but that is for federal criminal activity.
Banks don't give a damn about pardons, and a good many of them intend to collect one minute after NOON on January 20th.
Trump also amassed quite a load of cash illegally while serving, so most of that will be clawed back as well.
There's also almost a thousand cases pertaining to debts he ran up for services rendered, but not paid for.
New York is also determined to proceed with their suits and investigations, most of which are already in the hopper.

The Democrats MUST pursue justice if for no other reason than to send the message that this IS in fact, "a nation of laws, not a nation of men."
If they don't, I think they would be committing political suicide.
Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Felis Leo]

Trump may actually get away with getting a pardon but that is for federal criminal activity.
Banks don't give a damn about pardons, and a good many of them intend to collect one minute after NOON on January 20th.
Trump also amassed quite a load of cash illegally while serving, so most of that will be clawed back as well.
There's also almost a thousand cases pertaining to debts he ran up for services rendered, but not paid for.
New York is also determined to proceed with their suits and investigations, most of which are already in the hopper.

The Democrats MUST pursue justice if for no other reason than to send the message that this IS in fact, "a nation of laws, not a nation of men."
If they don't, I think they would be committing political suicide.
Your thoughts are appreciated.

I think you are so wrong here, Checkerboard Strangler. There is a reason our nation, both at the Federal and state levels, has generally refrained pursuing criminal charges against prior presidents. And it is certainly not because every president up until now managed to stay within the straight and narrow and could never reasonably be prosecuted for anything after having left office. Far from it. It is to prevent the real possibility of civil war and mass violence when one side is seen to use the criminal justice system to punish political opponents.

I do not want our country to become like the Eastern Bloc or South Asia, where the new regime cleans house with pretextual criminal prosecutions and death sentences in absentia. You would make Donald Trump a martyr at your peril and everyone else's.

 

[CaughtInThe]

do the crime. do the time.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I think you are so wrong here, Checkerboard Strangler. There is a reason our nation, both at the Federal and state levels, has generally refrained pursuing criminal charges against prior presidents. And it is certainly not because every president managed to stay within the straight and narrow and could never reasonably be prosecuted for anything after having left office. It is to prevent the real possibility of civil war and mass violence when one side is seen to use the criminal justice system to punish political opponents.

I do not want our country to become like the Eastern Bloc or South Asia, where the new regime cleans house with pretextual criminal prosecutions and death sentences in absentia. You would make Donald Trump a martyr at your peril and everyone else's.

You're concerned about civil war only NOW, and only if justice is pursued?
Wow, where have you been, Felis...the right has already threatened civil war and if you go on Parler, the new refuge for butt hurt militia types, the plans are already in motion.

Too late buddy, the war has come.
Security/intel spox like Malcolm Nance are quite sure that a paramilitary coup attempt is being planned by Trump right now.
You have GOT to be kidding if you minimize this OR normalize the kind of crimes Trump has gotten away with, and there won't be any republic left if he gets away with it.
He has already martyred himself, what do you think the post election rallies are all about?
Jeezus Felis, wake up and look around you.

 

[Mycroft]

Trump may actually get away with getting a pardon but that is for federal criminal activity.
Banks don't give a damn about pardons, and a good many of them intend to collect one minute after NOON on January 20th.
Trump also amassed quite a load of cash illegally while serving, so most of that will be clawed back as well.
There's also almost a thousand cases pertaining to debts he ran up for services rendered, but not paid for.
New York is also determined to proceed with their suits and investigations, most of which are already in the hopper.

The Democrats MUST pursue justice if for no other reason than to send the message that this IS in fact, "a nation of laws, not a nation of men."
If they don't, I think they would be committing political suicide.
Your thoughts are appreciated.

I'm sure there are some people...probably connected to Lawfare...who are ready to set up a kangaroo court at a moment's notice.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

I think you are so wrong here, Checkerboard Strangler. There is a reason our nation, both at the Federal and state levels, has generally refrained pursuing criminal charges against prior presidents. And it is certainly not because every president up until now managed to stay within the straight and narrow and could never reasonably be prosecuted for anything after having left office. Far from it. It is to prevent the real possibility of civil war and mass violence when one side is seen to use the criminal justice system to punish political opponents.

I do not want our country to become like the Eastern Bloc or South Asia, where the new regime cleans house with pretextual criminal prosecutions and death sentences in absentia. You would make Donald Trump a martyr at your peril and everyone else's.

What you're arguing is that a president should be able to do literally anything with no limitations and no consequences ever. You know damn well this isn't like other presidents, so stop pretending this is normal. It isn't.

 

[Mr Person]

I think you are so wrong here, Checkerboard Strangler. There is a reason our nation, both at the Federal and state levels, has generally refrained pursuing criminal charges against prior presidents. And it is certainly not because every president up until now managed to stay within the straight and narrow and could never reasonably be prosecuted for anything after having left office. Far from it. It is to prevent the real possibility of civil war and mass violence when one side is seen to use the criminal justice system to punish political opponents.

I do not want our country to become like the Eastern Bloc or South Asia, where the new regime cleans house with pretextual criminal prosecutions and death sentences in absentia. You would make Donald Trump a martyr at your peril and everyone else's.

I don't think we should refrain from pursuing justice because bad people might do bad things in retaliation. That's appeasement, which pretty much never works to stave off trouble.

We aren't talking about retaliatory punishment for things he did in his official capacity, as might be the case in "the Eastern Bloc or South Asia." The existing investigations into Trump are about things that happened before he attained office, and I really do not think winning office should function as an automatic pardon. Independently of that, a president who broke norms with relish has little claim to enjoy norms when they benefit him.

Bear in mind, he can still demand a jury trial. This isn't like those other countries where the judiciary does whatever the current leader wants it to. And a rich defendant like Trump is simply not going to get steamrolled the way an indigent defendant in a state that massively underfunds its public defender program might.

Finally, I doubt anything could whip Trumpists up more than Trump's own rhetoric, ie, his current baseless claims of voter fraud that his lawyers step back from the moment a judge asks about them. These are the same people who reacted to Obama doing well in 2007-08 by slandering him as a Kenyan muslim who hates America, yadda yadda. That exploded even more under Trump. He gave them permission. I don't see any likelihood that they'll play nice if we let Trump get away with crimes he had committed before office.

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

I think you are so wrong here, Checkerboard Strangler. There is a reason our nation, both at the Federal and state levels, has generally refrained pursuing criminal charges against prior presidents. And it is certainly not because every president up until now managed to stay within the straight and narrow and could never reasonably be prosecuted for anything after having left office. Far from it. It is to prevent the real possibility of civil war and mass violence when one side is seen to use the criminal justice system to punish political opponents.

I do not want our country to become like the Eastern Bloc or South Asia, where the new regime cleans house with pretextual criminal prosecutions and death sentences in absentia. You would make Donald Trump a martyr at your peril and everyone else's.

Trump should be charged and prosecuted for all his crimes. Also, anyone involved in the Biden campaign who might possibly have anything to do with such prosecution should recuse themselves for exactly this reason.

 

[What if...?]

I think you are so wrong here, Checkerboard Strangler. There is a reason our nation, both at the Federal and state levels, has generally refrained pursuing criminal charges against prior presidents. And it is certainly not because every president up until now managed to stay within the straight and narrow and could never reasonably be prosecuted for anything after having left office. Far from it. It is to prevent the real possibility of civil war and mass violence when one side is seen to use the criminal justice system to punish political opponents.

I do not want our country to become like the Eastern Bloc or South Asia, where the new regime cleans house with pretextual criminal prosecutions and death sentences in absentia. You would make Donald Trump a martyr at your peril and everyone else's.

Hey, he'd be the biggest, mostest nearest martyr ever.

You could put a tap in his fat and feed an eternal flame.

What a legacy that would be.

Probably stink of McDonald's grease though, so ventilation would be important for the comfort of visitors.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

We are either a nation of laws or a nation of men.
If we are a nation of laws, then no man is above the law, not even a former president.
There is no in between as there might be for other issues.
This is one of those rare instances where it really IS A BINARY issue.
Either law means something or it doesn't.
And if it doesn't, we've already succeeded in destroying whatever it is we thought made America special, and if so, it deserves to be treated like any other third world banana republic.

 

[bomberfox]

pardoning of Trump would only invite future corruption by US presidents. We cant afford shielding the powerful from consequences while the least powerful get treated like rabid dogs every day.

 

[bomberfox]

I think you are so wrong here, Checkerboard Strangler. There is a reason our nation, both at the Federal and state levels, has generally refrained pursuing criminal charges against prior presidents. And it is certainly not because every president up until now managed to stay within the straight and narrow and could never reasonably be prosecuted for anything after having left office. Far from it. It is to prevent the real possibility of civil war and mass violence when one side is seen to use the criminal justice system to punish political opponents.

I do not want our country to become like the Eastern Bloc or South Asia, where the new regime cleans house with pretextual criminal prosecutions and death sentences in absentia. You would make Donald Trump a martyr at your peril and everyone else's.

This is a very valid concern. I dont want civil war either though the precedent Nixon set was that a president can commit crimes then use his veep to pardon him and get away scot free.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

@Felis Leo - Based on your logic, US Postmaster Louis DeJoy should also be allowed to skate with no consequences for his crimes (and yes, according to the Post Office itself, they are crimes) because if word gets out, it may further fuel a civil war, too.
In fact, by your same token, ALL Trump administration officials need to be instantly given full lifetime retroactive immunity because to do otherwise might incite blood in the streets.

How far down does this protection go?

 

[AConcernedCitizen]

This is a very valid concern. I dont want civil war either though the precedent Nixon set was that a president can commit crimes then use his veep to pardon him and get away scot free.

The concern of using the criminal justice system to punish political opponents is only valid if political opponents are involved. Biden should have nothing to do with the prosecution of Trump's crimes. Anyone in a position to look like they were leveraging their power to punish political opposition should recuse themselves to avoid this.

On the other hand, if Biden were to say to the AG "I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Trump knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Trump, they say tax fraud..." no one could possibly think there was any foul play in a perfect phone call like that.

 

[dex4974]

Trump is going to die rich and comfortable.

 

[Felis Leo]

What you're arguing is that a president should be able to do literally anything with no limitations and no consequences ever. You know damn well this isn't like other presidents, so stop pretending this is normal. It isn't.

Possibly. But it is my argument that people chose Democrats in general and Biden in particular out of a desire for a return to normalcy and stability. Calling for the criminal prosecution of the prior sitting President is anything but normal. We had an election that was surprisingly peaceful, and even after all the rancor and recount demands, Trump is almost certainly going to lose. There is no need to reignite the tire fire.

 

[OpportunityCost]

You're concerned about civil war only NOW, and only if justice is pursued?
Wow, where have you been, Felis...the right has already threatened civil war and if you go on Parler, the new refuge for butt hurt militia types, the plans are already in motion.

Too late buddy, the war has come.
Security/intel spox like Malcolm Nance are quite sure that a paramilitary coup attempt is being planned by Trump right now.
You have GOT to be kidding if you minimize this OR normalize the kind of crimes Trump has gotten away with, and there won't be any republic left if he gets away with it.
He has already martyred himself, what do you think the post election rallies are all about?
Jeezus Felis, wake up and look around you.

I know he could set FISA warrants against the Biden administration and accuse China of meddling in our election and build a case of Logan Act interference and prosecute some of their people....oh wait, that was Obama that did that with Russia as the pretext.

You need to quit pretending your side didn't already try to interfere in the transition of power and quit projecting the sins of your political party on Trump.

 

[Felis Leo]

@Felis Leo - Based on your logic, US Postmaster Louis DeJoy should also be allowed to skate with no consequences for his crimes (and yes, according to the Post Office itself, they are crimes) because if word gets out, it may further fuel a civil war, too.
In fact, by your same token, ALL Trump administration officials need to be instantly given full lifetime retroactive immunity because to do otherwise might incite blood in the streets.

How far down does this protection go?

No, just the President. Hardly anyone cares about any given president's lackeys enough to bleed for them or set off a car bomb in front of a Federal Building.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

No, just the President. Hardly anyone cares about any given president's lackeys enough to bleed for them or set off a car bomb in front of a Federal Building.

Excuse me, you did not just refer to the Murrah Building while simultaneously implying that liberals were responsible, did you? By the way, some of us still haven't forgotten it was the Right who committed that act of domestic terrorism.

 

[Phys251]

I think you are so wrong here, Checkerboard Strangler. There is a reason our nation, both at the Federal and state levels, has generally refrained pursuing criminal charges against prior presidents. And it is certainly not because every president up until now managed to stay within the straight and narrow and could never reasonably be prosecuted for anything after having left office. Far from it. It is to prevent the real possibility of civil war and mass violence when one side is seen to use the criminal justice system to punish political opponents.

I do not want our country to become like the Eastern Bloc or South Asia, where the new regime cleans house with pretextual criminal prosecutions and death sentences in absentia. You would make Donald Trump a martyr at your peril and everyone else's.

The bar to indict an outgoing president must be very, very high, so that a sitting president doesn't have to look over their shoulder every minute.

trump has cleared that bar by a mile, many, many times over. Tax evasion, corruptions, sexual assault, working in Russia's and not America's best interests (sorry, conservatives, that has NOT gone away)--We cannot just let this go.

There is exactly one path to healing in this country, and that is the path of justice.

No, just the President. Hardly anyone cares about any given president's lackeys enough to bleed for them or set off a car bomb in front of a Federal Building.

Hold it. What exactly are you getting that? Timothy McVeigh was a right-wing extremist. Either you need to admit that or GTFO off this side route, cause it won't end well for you.

 

[Athanasius68]

Trump is not going to be prosecuted for simple reason:

There is nothing to prosecute him over.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I don't see any likelihood that they'll play nice if we let Trump get away with crimes he had committed before office.

Quite the opposite.
Any rational person who has studied the Right over the last forty years knows they interpret fairness and kindness as WEAKNESS.
Hate to say it but that ushers in the logical conclusion that the only thing they do understand is brute force and fear for their very lives.
That's what makes the events of the last ten years so tragic, the realization that they only understand that one thing.
They are not a political party anymore.
Ordinary conservatives might be hanging on by a couple dozen here or there, or hoping that Trumpism will fade away but the best and brightest in the conservative world left the GOP a long time ago.
This is the dregs, the very bottom of the barrel.
I wish it was not the case, but it is.
The Party of Trump is, in reality, a cult, a cult ready to fight.

 

[Mycroft]

We are either a nation of laws or a nation of men.
If we are a nation of laws, then no man is above the law, not even a former president.
There is no in between as there might be for other issues.
This is one of those rare instances where it really IS A BINARY issue.
Either law means something or it doesn't.
And if it doesn't, we've already succeeded in destroying whatever it is we thought made America special, and if so, it deserves to be treated like any other third world banana republic.

I would believe your sentiment if I had ever heard you applying it to the previous administration.

Tell me...do you think James Wolfe should have been allowed to skate on charges of leaking classified material to his journalist mistress? Or, do you think he should have been charged even though he threatened to blow the whistle on powerful Senators from both Parties?

Are we really a nation of laws...or a nation of men?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I would believe ...

No you wouldn't, you're Mycroft.

 

[Felis Leo]

I don't think we should refrain from pursuing justice because bad people might do bad things in retaliation. That's appeasement, which pretty much never works to stave off trouble.

In a perfectly just world, it is conceivable that a good ten million Germans would have been put to death for their direct, knowing and willing involvement in crimes against humanity. Instead we had to make due with hanging ten Nazis at Nuremberg, and the remaining vast majority of German war criminals (up to and including death camp personnel) going back to their lives in private business and civil service in post-war Germany with little to no consequence.

Was letting roughly 99% of Germans who participated in atrocities off the hook wrong in retrospect? I think it was. Is letting presidents who do wicked acts while in office, some of which might be considered criminal and prosecutable off the hook wrong? Yes. But unfortunately, there were and are other considerations immediately at hand.

We aren't talking about retaliatory punishment for things he did in his official capacity, as might be the case in "the Eastern Bloc or South Asia." The existing investigations into Trump are about things that happened before he attained office, and I really do not think winning office should function as an automatic pardon. Independently of that, a president who broke norms with relish has little claim to enjoy norms when they benefit him.

Except that we pretty much are, Mr Person. Checkerboard Strangler was clear that he should be prosecuted for acts done while in office. If Donald Trump had not won the Presidency, would anyone here honestly care about him purchasing Stormy Daniel's silence during the election or the Trump University scam? Perhaps a few, but doubtful that it would be many.

And Donald Trump certainly has no moral right to enjoy the norms he has spurned. But Democrats did not get elected, by and large, on a platform of political retribution, just or unjust. They were elected on the basis of a return to no

Bear in mind, he can still demand a jury trial. This isn't like those other countries where the judiciary does whatever the current leader wants it to. And a rich defendant like Trump is simply not going to get steamrolled the way an indigent defendant in a state that massively underfunds its public defender program might.

Finally, I doubt anything could whip Trumpists up more than Trump's own rhetoric, ie, his current baseless claims of voter fraud that his lawyers step back from the moment a judge asks about them. These are the same people who reacted to Obama doing well in 2007-08 by slandering him as a Kenyan muslim who hates America, yadda yadda. That exploded even more under Trump. He gave them permission. I don't see any likelihood that they'll play nice if we let Trump get away with crimes he had committed before office.

Well, it is not a matter of Donald Trump or his most excessive supporters playing nice. It is matter of maintaining vituperative peace versus violence.