Dems Minimum wage war is a fool's gold

trfjr said:

you know nothing about me. My talents and education allowed me to retire at 50 and yes i started in the job market flipping burgers at 16 in high school paid for my own education and went on from there. maybe you should have done the same instead of sitting on you lazy leftist ass whining about how unfair it is that you have to work hard and educate your self and rather have the government hand it to you instead of earning it your self

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Plus why so testy? Hit a bit close to home, did I?

Sisyphus said:

The point was that Big Macs did not skyrocket in price to end users, despite the 41% increase in the FMW -- and in fact, lowered the cost increase trajectory!!

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I wouldn't expect Big Macs to skyrocket in price though.

I would expect a company the size of McDonalds to offset that cost increase through cutting hours, hiring fewer employees, offering cheaper benefits, discontinuing less profitable items, changing recipes, pressuring suppliers to lower prices, etc.

And if the growing success of McDonald's, Walmart, Home Depot, etc had their sales hurt in some way because of the FMW, in a mysterious unknown way, that you cannot, apparently, even speculate what it might be, how can you say it exists?

I can't quantify it definitively but it's hardly a mysterious unknown way that I cannot speculate to.

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Dapper Andy said:

I wouldn't expect Big Macs to skyrocket in price though.

I would expect a company the size of McDonalds to offset that cost increase through cutting hours, hiring fewer employees, offering cheaper benefits, discontinuing less profitable items, changing recipes, pressuring suppliers to lower prices, etc.

And if the growing success of McDonald's, Walmart, Home Depot, etc had their sales hurt in some way because of the FMW, in a mysterious unknown way, that you cannot, apparently, even speculate what it might be, how can you say it exists?

I can't quantify it definitively but it's hardly a mysterious unknown way that I cannot speculate to.

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1.8 million employees. That's a growing and not shrinking number. Meanwhile you gotta love ND, with the oil boom up there. McDs are having a hell of a time getting workers, and offer signing bonuses and $15 / hr pay, and still stay open. Go figure.

Deuce said:

Building roads, buying ammunition, vaccination programs, all of these redistribute wealth. Stop acting like "redistribution of wealth" is what you take issue with. What you take issue with is redistribution of wealth to people you don't like. Where is the constitutional authority for Congress to buy bombs from Lockheed Martin for the USAF? I need the specific sentence in the US constitution that authorizes this.

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building post roads, buying ammunition, are duties of congress becuase they have been given authority per the constitution article 1 section 8

vaccinations programs, are not a duty of congress.

their is no authority in the constitution to take money from one citizen, and give it to another...even if it was ever remotely legal, according to constitutional law, you would have to give money to every citizen, becuase the law states all citizens must be treated equally by government.

the USAF is not a illegal entity ,becuase an amendment to our constitution has not been passed as it should have, the states would have easily passed an amendment in 1947

thinkforyoursel said:

Folks here is a great example of what I'm trying to say here!!

This guy took his time to write this fart ...rather than have a decent conversation....why should congress change when their supporters want exactly that?
I mean ..he really worked at this fart didn't he? Woo---wooo ...you got me ...I'm going to try and outwork your fart!! :lamo

This is exactly whats happening to the country ....and the problem is sssooo much more acute on the right.

While the left may be misled....like I pointed out in this thread ....the people on the right are in this constant attack mode ...always ready to cut off their dam nose to spite their face!!! They never miss an opportunity!!

Y'all know what ........go ahead ...keep screwing each other over ...and tear down up the country...I'll stand back!!

There is so much gap ...in the intelligence within the average Chinese than there is in Americans ....and they (Chinese) will soon be "the worlds only super power for it!!

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Thanks for totally committing hari-kiri in this thread by going the "juvenile little frat-boy" route. You've totally discredited yourself while failing to answer any of my points.

jonny5 said:

What taxpayer money is going to Papa Johns?

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Subsidizing the living of the employees via welfare, food stamps, medicaid, etc.

ernst barkmann said:

building post roads, buying ammunition, are duties of congress becuase they have been given authority per the constitution article 1 section 8

vaccinations programs, are not a duty of congress.

their is no authority in the constitution to take money from one citizen, and give it to another...even if it was ever remotely legal, according to constitutional law, you would have to give money to every citizen, becuase the law states all citizens must be treated equally by government.

the USAF is not a illegal entity ,becuase an amendment to our constitution has not been passed as it should have, the states would have easily passed an amendment in 1947

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There is no mention of an air force in Article 1, Section 8. It specifically mentions land and naval forces, not air forces. According to your "limited to enumerated powers" interpretation, the USAF is unconstitutional. Whether an amendment "should have" been passed is irrelevant, no such amendment was passed.

Deuce said:

Subsidizing the living of the employees via welfare, food stamps, medicaid, etc.

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It's subsidization of the lack of skill of the employee not the business...

Deuce said:

There is no mention of an air force in Article 1, Section 8. It specifically mentions land and naval forces, not air forces. According to your "limited to enumerated powers" interpretation, the USAF is unconstitutional. Whether an amendment "should have" been passed is irrelevant, no such amendment was passed.

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the founders are clear government is limited......only 18 powers do they have....... anything outside them is unconstitutional

ernst barkmann said:

the founders are clear government is limited......only 18 powers do they have....... anything outside them is unconstitutional

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Try reading the Spending Clause, aka General Welfare Clause, and not only the other 17 powers. If you're going to ignore the one you don't like, and which utterly debunks your delusions on limits to stuff Congress is and has done for generations, saying "18" is a bit disingenuous.

I can't say this enough. I'm not a republican ...and I believe the last 2 decades corporations have shafted the workers by raking in huge profits ...and not sharing the bounty with their workers. But this McDonalds fight is the wrong fight!!

We once had decent manufacturing jobs where people could work at and raise a family.
Now those jobs are gone ...and the attempt here is to try and replace these manufacturing job .....literally with MDonalds jobs!!!

It cannot work....you can't be a head of a household and expect to get by working at McDonalds ....in NEW YORK!!
Go ahead raise the dam minimum wage ...go ahead....I guarantee those people will still be very poor scraping by!!

The answer is to create industries with better jobs......that demand better pay!! The answer isn't to look at McDonalds and try to pretend they are Chrysler...or Ford!! Their business model was never built like that!!

I'm sorry but this argument and this fight by democrats ...is sending the wrong message. It really and truly play into the republican talking point that the democrats want people to be poor and dependent on the government!!

Let me say it again....there is no way in hell you're going to work at McDonalds ...and expect to raise a family, pay your rent and pay your bills ...living in New York!!!

thinkforyoursel said:

I can't say this enough. I'm not a republican ...and I believe the last 2 decades corporations have shafted the workers by raking in huge profits ...and not sharing the bounty with their workers. But this McDonalds fight is the wrong fight!!

We once had decent manufacturing jobs where people could work at and raise a family.
Now those jobs are gone ...and the attempt here is to try and replace these manufacturing job .....literally with MDonalds jobs!!!

It cannot work....you can't be a head of a household and expect to get by working at McDonalds ....in NEW YORK!!
Go ahead raise the dam minimum wage ...go ahead....I guarantee those people will still be very poor scraping by!!

The answer is to create industries with better jobs......that demand better pay!! The answer isn't to look at McDonalds and try to pretend they are Chrysler...or Ford!! Their business model was never built like that!!

I'm sorry but this argument and this fight by democrats ...is sending the wrong message. It really and truly play into the republican talking point that the democrats want people to be poor and dependent on the government!!

Let me say it again....there is no way in hell you're going to work at McDonalds ...and expect to raise a family, pay your rent and pay your bills ...living in New York!!!

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Agreed, and it makes one wonder why there is so much opposition to promoting energy independence as it would provide good paying jobs...

AlabamaPaul said:

It's subsidization of the lack of skill of the employee not the business...

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:agreed: We don't need Social Engineering or Corporate Engineering, neither of which works. The first creates a dependency for those at the lower end of the wage scale, while lowering their self esteem, and the markets themselves handle what decisions businesses make. Government only gets in the way. How did people live their lives in the past, without lifelong subsidization of those lacking the necessary skills needed to become a productive member of society? :shock: FDR was astute enough to create jobs during the Great Depression, giving men both the opportunity to learn new skills and the chance to earnmoney. Why isn't something along those lines being done today?

Good evening, AP. :2wave:

thinkforyoursel said:

I can't say this enough. I'm not a republican ...and I believe the last 2 decades corporations have shafted the workers by raking in huge profits ...and not sharing the bounty with their workers. But this McDonalds fight is the wrong fight!!

We once had decent manufacturing jobs where people could work at and raise a family.
Now those jobs are gone ...and the attempt here is to try and replace these manufacturing job .....literally with MDonalds jobs!!!

It cannot work....you can't be a head of a household and expect to get by working at McDonalds ....in NEW YORK!!
Go ahead raise the dam minimum wage ...go ahead....I guarantee those people will still be very poor scraping by!!

The answer is to create industries with better jobs......that demand better pay!! The answer isn't to look at McDonalds and try to pretend they are Chrysler...or Ford!! Their business model was never built like that!!

I'm sorry but this argument and this fight by democrats ...is sending the wrong message. It really and truly play into the republican talking point that the democrats want people to be poor and dependent on the government!!

Let me say it again....there is no way in hell you're going to work at McDonalds ...and expect to raise a family, pay your rent and pay your bills ...living in New York!!!

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Simply does not work. It's not like customers are waiting out there for us to create the next Chrysler, or whatever, that cheap labor elsewhere will not simply copy.

We need to old school, and do what we invented and thus created all those great paying manufacturing jobs doing: mandate better pay; make the jobs more valuable. Whether you install a rivet on an assembly line, or flip a burger, is moot. If the job pays well, suddenly we have good paying jobs again.

And every cheese ball excuse used to justify low pay for burger flippers, was used to justify crap pay for manufacturing, before people simply demanded more pay and we created the minimum wage. Fact. It's not what you do that has value. IT'S WHAT YOU'RE PAID THAT MAKES YOU VALUABLE!!!!

polgara said:

:agreed: We don't need Social Engineering or Corporate Engineering, neither of which works. The first creates a dependency for those at the lower end of the wage scale, while lowering their self esteem, and the markets themselves handle what decisions businesses make. Government only gets in the way. How did people live their lives in the past, without lifelong subsidization of those lacking the necessary skills needed to become a productive member of society? :shock: FDR was astute enough to create jobs during the Great Depression, giving men both the opportunity to learn new skills and the chance to earnmoney. Why isn't something along those lines being done today?

Good evening, AP. :2wave:

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Good evening pg...

When I hear the political TP's of education and infrastructure, all I see are ways to payoff political supporters. If there were a grand plan to harden our power grid, I might be able to go along. Also, I wold support most efforts that might help us achieve energy independence...

Sisyphus said:

Try reading the Spending Clause, aka General Welfare Clause, and not only the other 17 powers. If you're going to ignore the one you don't like, and which utterly debunks your delusions on limits to stuff Congress is and has done for generations, saying "18" is a bit disingenuous.

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you have already been explain to their is no welfare clause to hand out money or congress to do whatever it wishes

the general welfare is the 18 powers.


duites of congress

powers of cogress

Section. 8.

1 The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

2 To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

3 To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

4 To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

5 To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

6 To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

7 To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

8 To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

9 To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

10 To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

11 To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

12 To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

13 To provide and maintain a Navy;

14 To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

15 To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

16 To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

17 To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And

18 To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


“With respect to the two words ‘general welfare,’ I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators.” – James Madison in letter to James Robertson

“[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any.” – James Madison, Federalist 14

“The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce.” – James Madison, Federalist 45

“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.” – James Madison, 1792

“The Constitution allows only the means which are ‘necessary,’ not those which are merely ‘convenient,’ for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed” – Thomas Jefferson, 1791

“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1798

There you have it. James Madison, the Constitution’s author and Thomas Jefferson the author of the Declaration of Independence, specifically say that Congressional powers are to be limited and defined – unlike most modern interpretations!

Admittedly, Jefferson and Madison were not our only Founders. These two were strict constitutionalists who feared the potential strength of any government. So let’s look at another Founder’s opinion—Alexander Hamilton who historically saw it in a somewhat looser vain.

“This specification of particulars [the 18 enumerated powers of Article I, Section 8] evidently excludes all pretension to a general legislative authority, because an affirmative grant of special powers would be absurd as well as useless if a general authority was intended.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 83

Hamilton uncategorically states that all congressional powers are enumerated and that the very existence of these enumerations alone makes any belief that Congress has full and general legislative power to act as it desires nonsensical. If such broad congressional power had been the original intent, the constitutionally specified powers would have been worthless. In other words, why even enumerate any powers at all if the General Welfare clause could trump them?

“No legislative act … contrary to the Constitution can be valid. To deny this would be to affirm that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid.” – Alexander Hamilton, Federalist 78

In short, Hamilton tells us that since the powers of Congress are enumerated and limit Congress to those powers, any assumed authority outside those specified that don’t have a direct relation to those explicit powers must be contrary to the Constitution and therefore — unconstitutional.

thinkforyoursel said:

New York's fast food workers are on strike for better wages.
While I do believe wages need to keep pace with inflation ...but more importantly with company profits ...I think the minimum wage issue for dems is masking the problem.
The real problem with the fast food workers are ....those jobs were never intended for people to raise a family, pay rent in NEW YORK ...and take vacations. Those jobs were for college kids to get pocket change for school and summer activities.

I don't mind paying extra for fast food ....but it will never change the plight of those working these jobs ...in NEW YORK....thinking they're going to get ahead!!

Stop the madness ...this is an argument ...I'm surprised republicans fail to clarify. Yes we need to look at wages ...across every occupation ...because companies are raking in record profits ...and most workers never share in the profits. But these McDonalds workers are being conned on this one!! At $50K a year in New York ....a single guy with no kids and no wife to support is barely getting by!!

Do these people with their families want $100K/year to flip burgers??

Dems and republicans failure to work together is why nothing will ever change ...or get better!!

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You have the job situation right. When I was a teenager I worked for a contract hay baling crew for 2 cents per bale. Next year I moved "up" to a minimum wage job at (then) $1.60 per hour in an ice packing plant. Neither was part of my career strategy. Both were to buy cheeseburgers and gas and stuff to impress young ladies.eace

thinkforyoursel said:

I can't say this enough. I'm not a republican ...and I believe the last 2 decades corporations have shafted the workers by raking in huge profits ...and not sharing the bounty with their workers. But this McDonalds fight is the wrong fight!!

We once had decent manufacturing jobs where people could work at and raise a family.
Now those jobs are gone ...and the attempt here is to try and replace these manufacturing job .....literally with MDonalds jobs!!!

It cannot work....you can't be a head of a household and expect to get by working at McDonalds ....in NEW YORK!!
Go ahead raise the dam minimum wage ...go ahead....I guarantee those people will still be very poor scraping by!!

The answer is to create industries with better jobs......that demand better pay!! The answer isn't to look at McDonalds and try to pretend they are Chrysler...or Ford!! Their business model was never built like that!!

I'm sorry but this argument and this fight by democrats ...is sending the wrong message. It really and truly play into the republican talking point that the democrats want people to be poor and dependent on the government!!

Let me say it again....there is no way in hell you're going to work at McDonalds ...and expect to raise a family, pay your rent and pay your bills ...living in New York!!!

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Greetings, thinkforyourself. :2wave:

:agree: Further, most people living outside of New York aren't going to be able to do it either! Raising the minimum wage is only going to cause prices of everything to climb, so while they may be making more money, they will still be in the same boat they were before...not enough money to go around. And I have been reading about companies laying people off because of the 50-employee threshhold for Obamacare. We need more unemployed people? Sheesh! :thumbdown:

AlabamaPaul said:

Good evening pg...

When I hear the political TP's of education and infrastructure, all I see are ways to payoff political supporters. If there were a grand plan to harden our power grid, I might be able to go along. Also, I wold support most efforts that might help us achieve energy independence...

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Cronyism at its finest, all beautifully financed by the taxpayer! :thumbdown:

Scientists have been sounding the alarm about our aging grid for quite some time. If I read history correctly, though, nothing will be done until it fails. Then it becomes an "emergency," because if people can't recharge their electric cars to get to where they want to go, there will be massive outrage from the public, and rightfully so! Pedaling a bike 30 miles to get to work isn't going to go over well, even if it's touted as good exercise! :wow:

Sisyphus said:

Simply does not work. It's not like customers are waiting out there for us to create the next Chrysler, or whatever, that cheap labor elsewhere will not simply copy.

We need to old school, and do what we invented and thus created all those great paying manufacturing jobs doing: mandate better pay; make the jobs more valuable. Whether you install a rivet on an assembly line, or flip a burger, is moot. If the job pays well, suddenly we have good paying jobs again.

And every cheese ball excuse used to justify low pay for burger flippers, was used to justify crap pay for manufacturing, before people simply demanded more pay and we created the minimum wage. Fact. It's not what you do that has value. IT'S WHAT YOU'RE PAID THAT MAKES YOU VALUABLE!!!!

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I can understand where you're coming from but listen. The best way to increase wages is ....to increase the demand for workers ....by actually creating more jobs. Right now ...employers are firmly in the drivers seat ...and they do not want to change the situation.

This is why I keep talking about the immigration issue. What are the chances McDonalds will increase wages when this immigration bill pass and there is suddenly 20 million more low wage workers to choose from? A bill that's being championed by democrats??? Consider some guy washing cars .....doing back breaking field labor picking oranges ...suddenly becomes a citizen can freely apply for that McDonalds job? That guy ...now ....is willing to flip burgers for half the current wage compared to his current situation!!

And the immigration Bill will not just screw these minimum wage earners ....it will affect even educated workers because the bill will also infuse many HB-1 visa worker in the country!!

For democrats to parading around with the low wage McDonalds workers as some cause for the poor ...is a FU#@-KING SHAM!!

The American people is screwed ...democrats lack the imagination to bring us into the 21st century with better jobs ....and republicans like what we have today ...an abundance of workers that are easily exploited by the rich!!

AlabamaPaul said:

It's subsidization of the lack of skill of the employee not the business...

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This might be accurate in this weird fantasy world where the prestige and pay of a job always reflect the work ethic of the employee, and where it was physically possible for everyone to even have a job, let alone a decent one. Fill every job opening in the country, millions will still be unemployed. What about their skills?

And when PHDs lost their jobs in the recession, people said they should suck it up and take a fast food job instead of unemployment. Make up your goddamned minds.

I challenge anyone in this thread making derisive comments about minimum wage workers to go work fast food for 74 hours a week. Just try it out and see what you think. See if you still believe someone doing that doesn't deserve to be able to feed themselves.

Deuce said:

I challenge anyone in this thread making derisive comments about minimum wage workers to go work fast food for 74 hours a week. Just try it out and see what you think. See if you still believe someone doing that doesn't deserve to be able to feed themselves.

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Who is actually willing to work such jobs at such hours for such pay?

If the consideration on these contracts is so abysmal that it would not even allow them to feed themselves, how are they being rational to accept such terms of an employment contract? Clearly it is not rational.

Should we consider them incompetent to contract with others, considering they make irrational decisions about their willingness to work for others?

Deuce said:

I challenge anyone in this thread making derisive comments about minimum wage workers to go work fast food for 74 hours a week. Just try it out and see what you think. See if you still believe someone doing that doesn't deserve to be able to feed themselves.

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A person working those many hours would be making approximately 30K, depending on where they live not so bad. Also not sure that this is representative of most workers, 12 hours a day six days a week? One problem these people are going to have in 2015 is these places will be keeping people's hours below 30 so they do not have to pay the Obamacare penalty. Try living on 29 hours pay.

Deuce said:

I challenge anyone in this thread making derisive comments about minimum wage workers to go work fast food for 74 hours a week.

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Don't have to. I've already entered the work force, and moved my way up. I never had illegitimate children. Never got hooked on smack. Never dropped out of high school. Never made the poor life decisions that a lot of those people made, which put them in the position they're in. And I did it all without any help from Mommy Government.