Dems Minimum wage war is a fool's gold

[Carjosse]

A person working those many hours would be making approximately 30K,

That is actually pretty bad no matter where you are.

 

[Campbell]

wow ... ya mean that the "free market" really is free? It's not a rigged game? listen, go ahead and defend this growing inequality, I'll pass ... it's clear you and I are not going to have a meeting of the minds on this ... I've had this conversation with cons much too often and the result is always the same ... maybe another time ... take care ...

They're happy in lala land. Let 'em be. They will learn soon enough that the Lord/Serf society will not fly in America....as bad as they want it.

 

[jonny5]

Subsidizing the living of the employees via welfare, food stamps, medicaid, etc.

None of that money goes to Papa Johns. Just the opposite. They subsidize the govt to the tune of 32million in income tax (plus fees, payroll taxes, state and local taxes)

 

[Deuce]

A person working those many hours would be making approximately 30K, depending on where they live not so bad. Also not sure that this is representative of most workers, 12 hours a day six days a week? One problem these people are going to have in 2015 is these places will be keeping people's hours below 30 so they do not have to pay the Obamacare penalty. Try living on 29 hours pay.

That was the amount of hours you'd have to work to fit McDonald's now-infamous "budget." Which included $20/month for health insurance, a car that doesn't require gasoline, and no line item for food. It already included a second job.

 

[Papa bull]

That was the amount of hours you'd have to work to fit McDonald's now-infamous "budget." Which included $20/month for health insurance, a car that doesn't require gasoline, and no line item for food. It already included a second job.

I think they were using that "infamous budget" to remind people that McDonalds was a low-paying part-time job choice for students, not a career path for people married with children. They should have just said "if you aren't living with your parents, you might not be satisfied with the pay".

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

I know one thing: you label yourself as a Libertarian, and they're often nincompoops. So that's something.

The same could be said about people who label themselves Very Liberal.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

I challenge anyone in this thread making derisive comments about minimum wage workers to go work fast food for 74 hours a week. Just try it out and see what you think. See if you still believe someone doing that doesn't deserve to be able to feed themselves.

Are you saying that someone who makes more than $650/week has trouble feeding themselves? What the hell are they eating!

 

[Sisyphus]

I can understand where you're coming from but listen. The best way to increase wages is ....to increase the demand for workers ....by actually creating more jobs. Right now ...employers are firmly in the drivers seat ...and they do not want to change the situation.

This is why I keep talking about the immigration issue. What are the chances McDonalds will increase wages when this immigration bill pass and there is suddenly 20 million more low wage workers to choose from? A bill that's being championed by democrats??? Consider some guy washing cars .....doing back breaking field labor picking oranges ...suddenly becomes a citizen can freely apply for that McDonalds job? That guy ...now ....is willing to flip burgers for half the current wage compared to his current situation!!

And the immigration Bill will not just screw these minimum wage earners ....it will affect even educated workers because the bill will also infuse many HB-1 visa worker in the country!!

For democrats to parading around with the low wage McDonalds workers as some cause for the poor ...is a FU#@-KING SHAM!!

The American people is screwed ...democrats lack the imagination to bring us into the 21st century with better jobs ....and republicans like what we have today ...an abundance of workers that are easily exploited by the rich!!

We agree; create a shortage for workers, and it drives pay higher, since companies now compete for workers rather than workers competing for job. We can see that effect in the micro in ND, where the Bakken Formation has turned the state into an oil-boom region, in large part, because it's North Dakota; remote; cold as a witches tit in Fall/Winter; thus comparatively low population. So despite it being subject to a FMW of $7.25, some McDonald's franchises have been reported to pay signing bonuses of about $300 to $500, and starting hourly pay as high as $15 / hr, since workers of all ages are being sought to fill the sudden need of the oil industry, in an area few are likely to flock to, due to location and climate. If the same was happening in San Diego, people would flock like flies to dog poop. But mostly, a few are coming from Idaho and nearby, but not enough, making for a perfect storm for workers.

But nationally, that's simply not the case. It's only occurred at one time in our history: post WWII, thanks to about 10,000 young men dying monthly in the war, with global demand due to our industrial base being the only one on the planet, darn near, that was not blown to smithereens. And as advantageous as that was for our workforce, it's obviously not an ideal way of improving wages organically, via pure supply and demand.

We have to do it differently: raise the wage minimum to a level that demand increases employment nearer to so called "full employment," which was once thought to be about 5%, but is now generally believed to be in the 3% range, by most leading political economists. And based on CPE (consumer purchasing) divided by workforce, round about $80 grand in added consumer spending equates to 1 new job, somewhere within the value-chain those Dollars move up. And my estimate, given that nearly half of our workforce is between the current minimum, and $12 / hr, the added spending from that increase to the minimum wage ($12) would get us closer to the magic 3% mark. Thus that's why I advocate for a significant raise in the FMW, as opposed to a world war, since this time, our industrial base might well be blown to smithereens. Smaller world today, making the oceans protecting our flanks, less protective. Plus fewer dead, which is bonus.

 

[Sisyphus]

The same could be said about people who label themselves Very Liberal.

Not so much so, as it turns out. Pew did a study of earnings and education by political affiliation / self-identification. Turns out that Liberals share the top earning spot with Enterprise Conservatives (business owners, mostly), and out-earn, on average, all other Conservative types (social, etc.). Plus, Liberals are the most-highly educated on average.

So, as a rule, when someone self-describes themselves as "Liberal," chances are they make some coin and have a better education.

 

[ocean515]

Not so much so, as it turns out. Pew did a study of earnings and education by political affiliation / self-identification. Turns out that Liberals share the top earning spot with Enterprise Conservatives (business owners, mostly), and out-earn, on average, all other Conservative types (social, etc.). Plus, Liberals are the most-highly educated on average.

So, as a rule, when someone self-describes themselves as "Liberal," chances are they make some coin and have a better education.

Hmmm. Those liberal arts degrees may not be transfering to much wisdom though...


Pew Research: Republicans More Knowledgeable Than Democrats

In a 2010 Pew survey, Republicans outperformed Democrats on 10 of 12 questions, with one tie and Democrats outperforming Republicans on just 1 of the 12. In the latest survey, however, Republicans outperformed Democrats on every single one of 19 questions.

Those Pew results are confirmed by some surprising other sources. According to a New York Times headline dated April 14, 2010, “Poll Finds Tea Party Backers Wealthier and More Educated.” Shattering widespread myths, that survey revealed that Tea Party supporters were more likely to possess a college degree than their counterparts (23% to 15%), and also more likely to have completed post-graduate studies (14% to 10%). Tea Partiers were also more likely to have completed “some college” by a 33% to 28% margin, and substantially less likely to have not completed high school than non-supporters (3% versus 12%), or to possess only a high school degree (26% versus 35%).

 

[Sisyphus]

Hmmm. Those liberal arts degrees may not be transfering to much wisdom though...


Pew Research: Republicans More Knowledgeable Than Democrats

In a 2010 Pew survey, Republicans outperformed Democrats on 10 of 12 questions, with one tie and Democrats outperforming Republicans on just 1 of the 12. In the latest survey, however, Republicans outperformed Democrats on every single one of 19 questions.

Those Pew results are confirmed by some surprising other sources. According to a New York Times headline dated April 14, 2010, “Poll Finds Tea Party Backers Wealthier and More Educated.” Shattering widespread myths, that survey revealed that Tea Party supporters were more likely to possess a college degree than their counterparts (23% to 15%), and also more likely to have completed post-graduate studies (14% to 10%). Tea Partiers were also more likely to have completed “some college” by a 33% to 28% margin, and substantially less likely to have not completed high school than non-supporters (3% versus 12%), or to possess only a high school degree (26% versus 35%).

I was talking about earning and education levels, which are completely unambiguous measures. Makes X, went as far as grade level Y. Also, self-described Liberals are merely the more progressive among Democrats, and not all Democrats.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

Not so much so, as it turns out.

Oh very much so. In fact there are numerous examples just on this site.

There is nothing sadder than a nincompoop who thinks they get a nincompoop pass because they believe they are well educated.

 

[ocean515]

I was talking about earning and education levels, which are completely unambiguous measures. Makes X, went as far as grade level Y. Also, self-described Liberals are merely the more progressive among Democrats, and not all Democrats.

I see. Yes, I think that is what you were trying to communicate...

Hmmm, then again...

 

[Sisyphus]

I see. Yes, I think that is what you were trying to communicate...

Hmmm, then again...

Here's an easy way to see it, since it includes the Pew study and other tidbits about various ideologies ... Political ideologies in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Fenton]

It's indicative of Obama's economic failure that the new narrative among the Unions and left wing labor organisations is a livable wage for Fast Food workers.

 

[Sisyphus]

It's indicative of Obama's economic failure that the new narrative among the Unions and left wing labor organisations is a livable wage for Fast Food workers.

Same ignorant (of Political Economics) fear-mongering nonsense used to describe "burger-flippers" of old: factory workers; steel mill workers; truckers. And of course, the rationale used then is like now: pay those common laborers more and the economy will collapse. And what happened? Great American Middle Class, the envy of the world. Plus we (stupidly) lament the loss of those manufacturing jobs, when what we need to lament losing is their middle class wages, which were spent right back into the economy making the country a small business nirvana. Pay common laborers (burger flippers if you will) more now, as we did then, and nirvana will return: workers will be middle class, at a minimum.

 

[Dapper Andy]

1.8 million employees. That's a growing and not shrinking number. Meanwhile you gotta love ND, with the oil boom up there. McDs are having a hell of a time getting workers, and offer signing bonuses and $15 / hr pay, and still stay open. Go figure.

What is there to figure?

You cherry picked a small, sparsely populated area of the country that immediately turned into one of the wealthiest areas in the world with their oil boom. High school kids are literally dropping out of school to take on $100,000.00 oil rig work there. Of course $15/hour works there now.

That specific McDonald's is hardly indicative of the country at large though.

 

[Sisyphus]

What is there to figure?

You cherry picked a small, sparsely populated area of the country that immediately turned into one of the wealthiest areas in the world with their oil boom. High school kids are literally dropping out of school to take on $100,000.00 oil rig work there. Of course $15/hour works there now.

That specific McDonald's is hardly indicative of the country at large though.

Sorry; CA, NY, OH ... many more, are all wealthier by far, in total state GDP and GDP per capita.

 

[Sisyphus]

What is there to figure?

You cherry picked a small, sparsely populated area of the country that immediately turned into one of the wealthiest areas in the world with their oil boom. High school kids are literally dropping out of school to take on $100,000.00 oil rig work there. Of course $15/hour works there now.

That specific McDonald's is hardly indicative of the country at large though.

It is in one respect: same burgers; same price, nearly. Go figure.

 

[Fenton]

Same ignorant (of Political Economics) fear-
mongering nonsense used to describe "burger-flippers" of old: factory workers; steel mill workers; truckers. And of course, the rationale used then is like now: pay those common laborers more and the economy will collapse. And what happened? Great American Middle Class, the envy of the world. Plus we (stupidly) lament the loss of those manufacturing jobs, when what we need to lament losing is their middle class wages, which were spent right back into the economy making the country a small business nirvana. Pay common laborers (burger flippers if you will) more now, as we did then, and nirvana will return: workers will be middle class, at a minimum.

The arbitrary increase of wages will result in higher cost for consumers and rising unemployment.

The Dems want higher taxes and higher wages and when that results in the obvious they'll blame it on Republicans

 

[Sisyphus]

The arbitrary increase of wages will result in higher cost for consumers and rising unemployment.

The Dems want higher taxes and higher wages and when that results in the obvious they'll blame it on Republicans

So they claimed when common labor in the 40s and 50s wages were raised, arbitrarily. But we got schooled (some of us) and discovered a side effect: demand side.

Nothing of what you postulate has EVER happened, anywhere, at anytime in history. So the likelihood it will this time is so low as to be ZERO!!!

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

So they claimed when common labor in the 40s and 50s wages were raised, arbitrarily. But we got schooled (some of us) and discovered a side effect: demand side.

Nothing of what you postulate has EVER happened, anywhere, at anytime in history. So the likelihood it will this time is so low as to be ZERO!!!

Really? You should go read up about Union contracts that accept higher wages in return for fewer positions. It happens all the time.

 

[Dapper Andy]

Sorry; CA, NY, OH ... many more, are all wealthier by far, in total state GDP and GDP per capita.

I don't know how helpful state GDP is when looking at a specific area.

Income distribution is more relevant here though. Most wealthy communities are made up of a handful of obscenely wealthy households which skew average household income. This area might lack the stock option billionaire but it also lacks the homeless, as evident by McDonald's needing to offer $15/hour to flip burgers just to stay in business.

Then there is the different in cost of living; not to mention that I said ONE OF the wealthiest areas and not THE wealthiest area. You're welcome to split hairs and tell me Belle Meade, TN has a higher average household income but I think you're pretty much missing the point.

 

[Sisyphus]

Really? You should go read up about Union contracts that accept higher wages in return for fewer positions. It happens all the time.

I'd love to. Which ones in the 50s and 60s had such covenants within the contracts? I'd be fascinated and would love to read up on it.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Heebie Jeebie]

I'd love to. Which ones in the 50s and 60s had such covenants within the contracts? I'd be fascinated and would love to read up on it.

Thanks in advance.

Start with the SIU, MMP, MEBA, ILA and work you way to other industries. I was in one when it happened with regularity