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Democrats pick Tom Perez as DNC Chair (1 Viewer)

Same question, what exactly has Sanders done to warrant the support you are throwing his way? You really believe that the Congress of the US is going to support a socialist agenda? Maybe civics is a course you should take

For every bad decision we've made as a country in the last 30 years, there is a video of Bernie Sanders trying to stop it.

He voted No on NAFTA
No on the Iraq War
No on the Panama Papers

Not only that but he broke through the establishment veil to make progressives relevant again.
 
The worst thing the Democrats could do would be move left....

Clinton is one of the most overrated presidents of all time; that he was in office during the tech boom of the 90s means exactly nothing. Meanwhile he helped lay the foundations for 2007-8 with the Republicans, and strangled critical derivatives regulation and oversight initiatives in the cradle ( Bill Clinton - 25 People to Blame for the Financial Crisis - TIME | How Congress Rushed a Bill that Helped Bring the Economy to Its Knees | The Huffington Post | 2000 Commodities Act Paved Way For Problems : NPR ).

And it's too bad all of the data and polls thus far disagrees with your assessment that going left and towards Bernies ideas would have been a disaster (have you seen how well he and his ideas polled amongst the general population? Do Americans Agree With Bernie Sanders? (INFOGRAPHIC) | Bernie Sanders Favorable Rating - Polls - HuffPost Pollster | Hillary Clinton Favorable Rating - Polls - HuffPost Pollster | Donald Trump Favorable Rating - Polls - HuffPost Pollster | http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-general-election-trump-vs-sanders | http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2016-general-election-trump-vs-clinton ), nevermind the Dem's complete and utter failure when they futilely attempted to uphold and stay the course of their right of centre corporatism. This isn't the 70s, Bernie isn't McGovern (also, I don't recall him ever running against anyone like ****ing Trump), and the parallels between them are at best limited.

Your baseless opinions are couched in exactly no evidence.

You seem to have a great love for Sanders so tell me exactly what Sanders has DONE that warrants this support. We know what he says but what has he done. Apparenlty rhetoric trumps actual substance in your world. Sanders is from Vermont so I can hardly wait for the results you believe qualifies him to run the country

His integrity, his consistency, his honesty, his strength, his refusal to take or be corrupted by corporate money and big money interests unlike nearly every other federal level politician, his life long activism from the grass roots to the Senate in defense and support of what he believes, his productivity in the Senate ( http://www.alternet.org/election-20...shing-through-major-reforms-will-surprise-you ), and his willingness to, even in his advanced age, even in spite of the knife they stuck in his back, marshal the Dem party to save it from itself.
 
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This is the problem. You think a $12 min wage, public options and a Medicare buy-in, a more progressive tax code, debt-free college, universal pre-K, paid family and medical leave, and yes even an anti-TPP stance are "actively giving progressives the finger."

You folks are out of your damn minds. It's all process and personalities, with occasional obligatory lip service given to policy. And as a result you've given away the SCOTUS for a generation, and we'll be very lucky if Medicare and Medicaid survive the next four years in anything resembling their current form.

Does anyone believe Hillary would've delivered on any of those campaign promises? She would've thrown her hands up in the air just like Obama and said, "Oh, the Republicans. They're impossible!" "I'm a progressive but, the republicans." The truth is she is a corporate center-right candidate who wanted to deliver on campaign promises to Goldman Sachs. She was the queen of the donors, so to speak.

That platform was the DNC groaning and saying, "Okay, you progressives, what can we give you to shut you up. Bernie Sanders is going to be gone soon anyway." All you have to do is look at the numerous middle fingers from Clinton and the DNC to know they didn't give a s*** about progressives or bringing a vision to the country that didn't include Wall St. Tim Kaine was a big middle finger to progressives. Wall St. donors threatened to pull support if Hillary picked Elizabeth Warren as her VP. That showed us who really called the shots with Clinton. There was that middle finger. Ken Salazar heading up her transition team was a giant middle finger. Every single appointment and decision that the Clintons and the DNC made; progressives would've went the opposite direction. And it looks like had they gone towards progressives they would've won the election.
 
The worst thing the Democrats could do would be move left. This country is not a majority liberal country. The country as a whole is pretty much evenly divided between left, right, and moderate, but the electorate that actually bothers to show up most elections is if anything, center right.

Throughout the 70s and 80s, the Democratic party moved more to the left and kept losing elections as result. Had it not been for Watergate, the Democrats would have not won the presidency for nearly 25 years. Then in the late 80s / early 90s, you had the DLC that came up with a lot of new centrist ideas for the party and then they got a candidate that believed in them, and could articulate those ideas very well, Bill Clinton.

Now, we hear a lot of bashing of the Clinton years by many on the left today. For the life of me, I don't know what they are bitching about. That third way he championed for the Democrats and his presidency resulted in the median income going up every year of his presidency (the only time that has happened in decades). It resulted in the poverty rate dropping to its lowest level in the history of the country. Millions of minority families were lifted out of poverty. Violent crime rates, which in the early 90s were much worse than they are today, dropped precipitously. Over 20 million new jobs were created. There were 3 increases in the minimum wage, millions of new acres of public land were protected, millions of uninsured poor children got health insurance through SCHIP. On paper in terms of economic performance, prosperity, the number of people lifted out of poverty, jobs created, and median household income growth (the growth of incomes for the poor and middle class), that 3rd way centrist style of governing has the best record in the history of the country. For crying out loud, he left office the most popular president since FDR.

That is both a winning formula for Democrats in that it brings in both liberals in cities and moderates in small towns and rural areas, and its a win for progressives because the results are progressive goals (growing middle class, reductions in poverty, peace, property, strong environmental protections and so on).

Now, I like Bernie and I think he makes a solid contribution to the Senate by talking about issues that other don't. However, he would have gone down like George McGovern in a general election for the presidency and even if he somehow won, his efforts to move the country hard to the left would have ended up being so unpopular that they would have cost Democrats the presidency for decades to come.

The problem with the Democrats today is not the new DNC chair, its that the party needs new ideas.

We just fundamentally disagree. The data a few posts above suggests Democrats should've gone farther left. They would've siphoned the 3rd party vote and won the election. They needed 16% of the 3rd party vote in MI, WI, and PA, to swing the election.

Also what about Ross Perot? I thought Clinton won because Ross Perot split the vote in '92. To me, the country wasn't ready for McGovern and the Democrats made a huge blunder when they moved to the center. Now, the country is ready for progressive platforms. Socialism is a much different word in 2017 than in the 70s.

If Democrats need to stay the course, why are they wiped out in every level of government right now? If I was a Democratic leader, I mean how much farther right can you go before your a republican??? Pragmatism seems to dictate Dems need to go LEFT!
 
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Oh, I misread....:lol: So, do you agree that libs are lurching left?

Yes, I think the Democrats need to go left. I am an independent who leans Democrat. My ideal government is the democratic socialism of Scandinavia. I want to just learn Swedish and move to Sweden.
 
Taking for granted its the NYT.. The hard data in there is not opinion or commentary. It shows that Obama voters defected to 3rd parties in higher numbers than Republican voters showed up for Trump, in the 3 states that decided the election, MI, WI, and PA. In this case, your challenge to me was, prove that a progressive platform would win Democrats elections. The numbers seem to indicate that I'm right. Clinton lost Mi, Wi, PA by 77,774 votes. Democratic turnout was significantly down in those three states. While Republican turnout improved by 440,000 votes. 3rd party votes surged to 503,000. If the Democrats would've won 16% of that 3rd party vote, it would exceed the 77,000 threshold and throw them the election.. Progressives vote third party but, would vote Democrat if they felt represented. The numbers here indicate that I was right. Democrats would've won this election if they moved left.

OK, so mathematically there's a scenario where if certain voters behave as predicted or assumed. Well done, challenge met.

But haven't we recently learned that the voters are inherently unpredictable, and don't behave as assumed? Hell, I never thought that Trump'd win either, yet here we are.

I know. I'm talking about a system where you cooperate with each other. The implicit agreement in socialist economic programs, is that I'm going to pay for you because you are going to pay for me. And right now, especially in the private insurance market, capitalism is robbing you of your hard earned dollar. Socialism would save you money, if we were to implement a single-payer system.

I'm sure that everyone's willing to cooperate with each other up to a point. That point seems to come along when money's involved, and different people have different levels of money where they'll cooperate, beyond which they just won't. That level is different for everyone.

My view is that healthcare sized money is beyond the point where most will be willing to cooperate. Healthcare sized money is significant.

Perhaps I'm a pessimist. Perhaps I'm a realist. I dunno for sure, but I'm thinking the latter.
 
OK, so mathematically there's a scenario where if certain voters behave as predicted or assumed. Well done, challenge met.

But haven't we recently learned that the voters are inherently unpredictable, and don't behave as assumed? Hell, I never thought that Trump'd win either, yet here we are.



I'm sure that everyone's willing to cooperate with each other up to a point. That point seems to come along when money's involved, and different people have different levels of money where they'll cooperate, beyond which they just won't. That level is different for everyone.

My view is that healthcare sized money is beyond the point where most will be willing to cooperate. Healthcare sized money is significant.

Perhaps I'm a pessimist. Perhaps I'm a realist. I dunno for sure, but I'm thinking the latter.


Oh yeah, Trump defied all pollsters. I mean how many times did Trump punch himself in the face during the campaign.. to quote Bill Burr the comedian, "It'd be like if the other team threw 20 interceptions and you still find a way to lose."

I can think of one person that flat out predicted Trump would win. His name is Mark Blyth. He's a European economist, who I believe, also correctly predicted Brexit. In my gut, I had a feeling Trump was going to win, based on the populism in the air.. and the polling towards the end there. Major alarms should've went off in the Clinton camp that polls were narrowing in battleground states. As I remember it, Ohio was gone, in the month preceding the election. Ohio consistently polled +4 or +5 to Trump. Yeah, it surprised me because Clinton just seemed like the anointed one. But, when you look at the trends leading up to Trump combined with what happened with Brexit, it makes total sense.
 
I found an article proving I'm right. Democrats lost more votes to defected third party voters than Republicans picked up from Trump mania.






Democrats lost this election because they weren't progressives. If they would've ran Bernie Sanders. Bernie Sanders would be your president right now. I am a part of this statistic as a Michigan voter who voted Green. If Bernie was our nominee, I would've not only voted for him but, campaigned for him. Looks like this article shows that if the Democrats can embrace progressive ideas they would win elections.

Conservative, rich people wouldn't be doling out half their paycheck to pay for healthcare. The middle class pays a 6.2% tax on income which works out to the middle class saving money versus what they pay private insurance currently. That big savings that single-payer gives you would then be spent back into the economy, generating federal revenue and stimulating business.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/21/opinion/move-left-democrats.html?_r=0

How about answering my question, what has Sanders actually done that warrants your support? I know what he has said but as a Senator from Vermont what qualifies him for the office?
 
We just fundamentally disagree. The data a few posts above suggests Democrats should've gone farther left. They would've siphoned the 3rd party vote and won the election. They needed 16% of the 3rd party vote in MI, WI, and PA, to swing the election.

Also what about Ross Perot? I thought Clinton won because Ross Perot split the vote in '92. To me, the country wasn't ready for McGovern and the Democrats made a huge blunder when they moved to the center. Now, the country is ready for progressive platforms. Socialism is a much different word in 2017 than in the 70s.

If Democrats need to stay the course, why are they wiped out in every level of government right now? If I was a Democratic leader, I mean how much farther right can you go before your a republican??? Pragmatism seems to dictate Dems need to go LEFT!

If the country is ready for solid liberalism, then why is the Green Party not winning any state and local offices to speak of? They have a handful of offices in the whole country. If the country is just begging for liberalism, why are there hardly any Green Party mayors or city councils? Why no Green Party presence in state legislators? Why no Green Party State Attorney Generals or Insurance Commissioners? They got nothing. They just show up every 4 years with a candidate that at best acts as a spoiler.

For my entire life liberals have won on most of the issues when you poll people. For example, you poll people on universal healthcare and a majority are for it. Yet anytime you get into the details of it in the process of actually governing, and the party proposing it (which is always Democrats), gets destroyed in the next midterm election. It happened after Clinton did it, it happened with the ACA. When you get down to it, while people will say they are for universal healthcare, free college for everyone and so on, as soon as actual laws that would do that start getting debated, the electorate freaks out. What people really want is a manager for the government. Someone that is not going to do anything huge, just tweak things as they go, not legislate morality, no big wars, no religious right garbage, no supply side economics but no huge tax increases on the rich either...... They just want someone to manage things. Even today, the Republicans are talking about fully repealing the ACA and all of a sudden the same electorate that didn't like the ACA is freaking out because they are talking about getting rid of it (doing something big) and what they really want now is it just to be fixed.

Now, I totally agree the Democrats need to make some big changes. However, those need to come in the form of new ideas and new people. Some of of those ideas might be close to the center, some might be fairly liberal, some might be pro-business, others pro-labor, but they need some new ideas. What they also need to do is return to the 50 state strategy of Howard Dean where they compete everywhere, not just trying to form a coalition of various identity politics groups. There is a mile of difference between the two parties, there is no risk of the Democrats getting anywhere near Republicans if they move a little closer to the center on some issues as Republicans could not be further to the right.

When you move further to the left, you lose even more of the center.
 
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For every bad decision we've made as a country in the last 30 years, there is a video of Bernie Sanders trying to stop it.

He voted No on NAFTA
No on the Iraq War
No on the Panama Papers

Not only that but he broke through the establishment veil to make progressives relevant again.

Trying isn't an accomplishment so your non answer is noted
 
Character assassination is a very negative term, I say that you lose the right to use it when by winning Trump proved that what he was doing was what America wanted. If you need to pass blame I say you must put the blame on the American people.

I did. You either are used to talking to posters who think all people are awesome or you're not reading my posts.

Character assassination is loosely defined as maliciously harming somebody's reputation. So you're arguing that calling Ben Carson - "like a child molester" - incurable of being a violent, vindictive "psychopath" isn't character assassination because... he won? Did you support Charlie Sheen, saying that he wasn't acting crazy because he was "winning"? That almost makes more sense than your argument, because Sheen apologized for his behavior, while Trump appointed Carson to his administration without ever apologizing for a thing.

Trump could do anything and you'd say it's right because he "wins." Who cares if America is losing because Trump is such a tremendous winner!
 
If the country is ready for solid liberalism, then why is the Green Party not winning any state and local offices to speak of? They have a handful of offices in the whole country. If the country is just begging for liberalism, why are there hardly any Green Party mayors or city councils? Why no Green Party presence in state legislators? Why no Green Party State Attorney Generals or Insurance Commissioners? They got nothing. They just show up every 4 years with a candidate that at best acts as a spoiler. *snip for length

The Green Party is not allowed in the debates. Even though a vast majority of American want them there. The Green Party doesn't have any exposure. They're marginalized, disenfranchised, and ostracized. They get arrested for showing up at the debate. They also don't get federal funding. I voted for the Greens this year. In part because I was hoping the enthusiasm from Bernie's campaign would push the Greens over the 5% Federal funding threshold. Unfortunately, that did not happen for them. I also subscribe to the idea that if the Greens want to be taken seriously they need to win local elections, mayorships, and build from the ground up.

My belief is that if Democrats want to win elections, specifically the midterms the Democrats need to exorcise corporatism from themselves. Their base, specifically the millenial generation is an informational generation. They can make a meme from opensecrets.org exposing Corey Booker's skeletons in the closet in 2 minutes, and poof! It's off traveling to the far reaching corners of the country. The millenials are just now becoming the age of maturity where you start to care about politics. They have kids now, mortgages, some have massive amounts of student debt. Some have really, really, really, bad jobs. And they're supposed to go along with neoliberals that have delivered us depression era income inequality. The millenial generation is the first generation on par to do worse than their parents. What swung the election for Obama? Millenials and African Americans.. why didn't they come out for Clinton? Obama never delivered on hope and change, and Clinton didn't have a message other than I'm not that other guy.

In my view, the ONLY thing a Democrat needs is a message of income inequality compounded by campaign finance reform. Single-payer, debt free college, criminal justice reform, transforming our energy system, cut defense and end war, these are all important, to an overall progressive platform. But, from what I observed in this past election, what wins election is economic security. Trump won this election by telling the rust belt he'd give them their jobs back, when he can't because he can't fight the free market and automation. Democrats are in a position to capitalize on Trump's bombast, lack of experience, and lack of intelligence. But, they must run progressives, who at a base level support overturning citizen's united, breaking up the banks, raising the minimum wage, Bernie's economic package. This may be noticeable change, which people are reluctant to embrace, but it is necessary if our middle class and democracy are to survive the onslaught from some of the greediest capitalists the world has ever known.
 
I did. You either are used to talking to posters who think all people are awesome or you're not reading my posts.

Character assassination is loosely defined as maliciously harming somebody's reputation. So you're arguing that calling Ben Carson - "like a child molester" - incurable of being a violent, vindictive "psychopath" isn't character assassination because... he won? Did you support Charlie Sheen, saying that he wasn't acting crazy because he was "winning"? That almost makes more sense than your argument, because Sheen apologized for his behavior, while Trump appointed Carson to his administration without ever apologizing for a thing.

Trump could do anything and you'd say it's right because he "wins." Who cares if America is losing because Trump is such a tremendous winner!

Maybe that is the quality of people you run with, but I am much better than that.

Your lack of civility has been noted.
 
If the country is ready for solid liberalism, then why is the Green Party not winning any state and local offices to speak of? They have a handful of offices in the whole country. If the country is just begging for liberalism, why are there hardly any Green Party mayors or city councils? Why no Green Party presence in state legislators? Why no Green Party State Attorney Generals or Insurance Commissioners? They got nothing. They just show up every 4 years with a candidate that at best acts as a spoiler. *snip for length

Hey, sorry for double-posting on you.. But, something just occurred to me, that I wanted to come around to in my last post.

Bernie's message of income inequality converts Trump voters into progressive voters. He held a town hall with Trump country in WI and walked a Trump voter through his logic, and she came around to his side.

There's also evidence of progressives winning in Trump country with John Fetterman. Fetterman is a progressive mayor of Braddock, PA. He's a self described democratic socialist. And a helluva guy if you ask me. One of my favorite politicians. He primaried the sitting Senator in PA but, got taken down. Bernie's silence was actually defeaning on his Senate bid. Still, shows a progressive winning in an unlikely place like Braddock, PA. A place ravaged by NAFTA and economic downturns.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Fetterman_(politician)
 
snip------ I voted for the Greens this year. In part because I was hoping the enthusiasm from Bernie's campaign would push the Greens over the 5% Federal funding threshold. Unfortunately, that did not happen for them. I also subscribe to the idea that if the Greens want to be taken seriously they need to win local elections, mayorships, and build from the ground up.
Thats the problem though. Who the hell goes from competing in nothing to competing in the Olympics? The fact they don't get the polling numbers to get into the presidential debates has nothing to do with the fact they can't even win a couple of city council seats. Here is the thing though, when a party actually as to govern, it ends up moderating its positions. The reason why the Green Party and Libertarian Party are mostly just a bunch of nut jobs is they have never had to actually govern anything.

In my view, the ONLY thing a Democrat needs is a message of income inequality hinging on campaign finance reform. Single-payer, debt free college, criminal justice reform, transforming our energy system, cut defense and end war, these are all important, to an overall progressive platform. But, from what I observed in this past election, what wins election is economic security. Trump won this election by telling the rust belt he'd give them their jobs back, when he can't because he can't fight the free market and automation. Democrats are in a position to capitalize on Trump's bombast, lack of experience, and lack of intelligence. But, they must run progressives, who at a base level support overturning citizen's united, breaking up the banks, raising the minimum wage, Bernie's economic package.

Everyone talks campaign finance reform. Every time something gets passed, it gets gutted in the federal court system. Of course that will only be worse today because the Republicans now get 4 years of nominations.
Single Payer is a political impossibility.
Debt Free College is such a generic term that no one even knows what it actually means.
Criminal Justice Reform, yes we need to do it. However, move way to the left with it and you got yourself a bunch of Willie Horton / Dukakis style negative ads.
Cut defense by too much and you just look weak on defense.

I am not saying I am not for a lot of this stuff. I think we would be much better off with just a Medicare for everyone system rather than what we have. Just the same, its a political impossibility. To get what progressives want, you got to thread the needle with policy. It takes compromises or you can't get it done at all.

As to the Democrats base, its not millennials other than the oldest ones. Its mostly Gen X (another very tech savvy group). Really young people don't get out and vote, that is the problem. Yes I know some do, but most don't. Hillary won millions more votes than Bernie did in the primaries nationwide and that was with Bernie getting so much of the Millennial vote. What Democrats need to do is expand their base to get more votes outside of major cities. I agree that Hillary did not have a good message to run on. As to Obama, he accomplished more for liberals than any other president since LBJ and he did despite a Republican congress that fought him on everything. If you are disappointed he did not get more done, then blame the liberal base that did not show up and vote in the midterms.

As to corporatism. I don't like candidates being beholden to big corporate lobbyists either. However, here is the problem. Say you work for big company A. You are a big time liberal and you hate all the corporate money in politics. Your company wants some new law passed though so that the big project you are working on can come to fruition. All of a sudden you are all for your company lobbying congress even though you don't like all corporate money in politics. Point being, everyone wants what benefits them even if they are against the means of doing so in principle. Just the same, even with this there is a huge difference between Democrats and Republicans. Obama got corporate money (and a lot of small donors too), yet unlike his predecessor he did not appoint a mining industry lobbyist to head the Department of the Interior, he did not have a timber lobbyist running the Forest Service, he did not have his Mineral Management Service engaging in drug fueled sex orgies with oil industry lobbyists (yes that actually happened in the Bush Administration). There has literally been more scandal in one month of Trump than there was in 8 years of Obama. So no, even though both parties take corporate money, they are simply not the same. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
 
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Thats the problem though. Who the hell goes from competing in nothing to competing in the Olympics? The fact they don't get the polling numbers to get into the presidential debates has nothing to do with the fact they can't even win a couple of city council seats. Here is the thing though, when a party actually as to govern, it ends up moderating its positions. The reason why the Green Party and Libertarian Party are mostly just a bunch of nut jobs is they have never had to actually govern anything.

I understand wanting to adopt more moderate positions to appeal to a wider audience. But, what Clinton did clearly did not work. She was hoping to siphon a point or 2 off moderate republicans, when it looks like she should've offered olive branches to progressives. Because she only needed 16% of the third party vote in MI, WI, and PA to swing the election. Imagine if the DNC would've done damage control in a decent way. If they would've picked a progressive VP. I mean, they even bullied Nina Turner off the stage at the DNC. Flat out canceled her speech. They should've been offering her a campaign position. They just handled it poorly. It alienated the massive block of Bernie voters. I can go through all the steps that led us to scorned progressives.. When in the end, they needed us. They flat out needed us to vote for them.

I sympathize with you on the destruction this Trump administration is doing and will continue to do. Trump puts an ugly face on this. To me, Trump is preferable to Mike Pence, who is the GOP messaging machine perfected. I think after the GOP loots this country one last time.. American politics is going to swing left and stay there for generations. Failed Tax Cut policy is going to create more income inequality. Trump won't be able to fight globalization. He can't tweet tantrum the free market into playing nice. Trump won't be able to fight automation. Boomers retiring and needing more coverage at a cheaper price. The rise of millenials attaining maturity and doing worse than their parent's generation.. The elites have something big coming. Unfortunately, we've created a menacing surveillance state with a militarized police force that can legally detain you without probable cause. And the right's attacks on our civil liberties will continue.

Meandering aside, How do you see the midterms going?
 
Oh yeah, Trump defied all pollsters. I mean how many times did Trump punch himself in the face during the campaign..

Well, you also have to admit that Trump had a lot of help and a lot of times it what he was alleged to have said.

to quote Bill Burr the comedian, "It'd be like if the other team threw 20 interceptions and you still find a way to lose."

I can think of one person that flat out predicted Trump would win. His name is Mark Blyth. He's a European economist, who I believe, also correctly predicted Brexit. In my gut, I had a feeling Trump was going to win, based on the populism in the air.. and the polling towards the end there. Major alarms should've went off in the Clinton camp that polls were narrowing in battleground states. As I remember it, Ohio was gone, in the month preceding the election. Ohio consistently polled +4 or +5 to Trump. Yeah, it surprised me because Clinton just seemed like the anointed one. But, when you look at the trends leading up to Trump combined with what happened with Brexit, it makes total sense.

Ann Coulter called it a year and 1/2 before the election. Observe the audience and panelist's reaction.



To be fair, Keith Ellison also called it.



Guess the pollsters should have talked to either of them. For those that laughed, guess they aren't all that all knowing as they thought they were.
 
Well, you also have to admit that Trump had a lot of help and a lot of times it what he was alleged to have said.



Ann Coulter called it a year and 1/2 before the election. Observe the audience and panelist's reaction.


Guess the pollsters should have talked to either of them. For those that laughed, guess they aren't all that all knowing as they thought they were.



Cenk Uygur called it last summer too. but, he went back and forth so, I didn't include him.

We really are through the looking glass, ahah.
 
and the DNC moving farther left

there will be an inevitable backlash to Trump's presidency, IMO. Expect a Democrat president in either 2020 or 2024.
 


Cenk Uygur called it last summer too. but, he went back and forth so, I didn't include him.

We really are through the looking glass, ahah.


Yup. Looking glass.

There were signs. There were people who talked about it in public. Those people that did, they were laughed at by all the people who were proven out to be wrong in the end. Quite a shock to them, the results of this election.

Do you suppose they are going to stop pissing and moaning about it soon? I've pretty much had my fill of it.
 
Thats the problem though...

Throwing in with the Green Party would be disastrous given the anti-democratic FPTP electoral structure of the States as they lack the access, resources, exposure and infrastructure to capture office, and short of subsuming the Democrats, would present a net liability as a spoiler. Progressives know this, and the vast majority of people who would otherwise be attracted to them know this, which is largely why they, and the Libertarians as their conservative counterpart, won't ever gain real traction. It has nothing to do with their views and stances, but the way governments are elected and the reality of the resources involved.

Everyone talks campaign finance reform. Every time something gets passed, it gets gutted in the federal court system. Of course that will only be worse today because the Republicans now get 4 years of nominations.

Right, it's called Buckley v Valeo, and it's why a constitutional amendment is necessary such that money is explicitly no longer considered speech so campaign finance reform can be meaningful.

Single Payer is a political impossibility. ...

The argument to moderation fallacy is just that; it's the polling and zeitgeist that matters, not what one perceives as being within the Overton Window of acceptability per his confirmation biases. For all the bluster about Bernie's ideas being wildly radical and unworkable, the vast majority had and continue to have overwhelming support; going left would win the election, not keeping to the centre (which is largely abandoned and displaced to the left and right in times of frustration when populism is in vogue anyways). There was no patience or appetite for centre corporatism this election cycle, or even the bull**** right wing style populism Trump offered as voter turn out proved, as did the rust belt flip.

That having been said, I agree that passing popular ideas and legislation such as what Bernie proposes would be politically difficult, but that is primarily due to top down opposition per the marriage of private money with public office, and the associated lobbying and applied weight of rich and powerful donors, not because those ideas wouldn't sell with the public. However, difficult is not impossible, and despite the considerable array of obstacles set against it, with enough people like Bernie, and the Justice Democrats following his example that are making their way through the Dem primaries, it can be done.

Beyond all this, I do the best investment of time and energy, pound for pound for anyone who cares about an integral, representative government, is getting through a constitutional amendment to definitively insulate money from politics, including spending caps, and its indirect forms such as lobbying, SuperPACs, independent advertising spending, and so on, so that such policy isn't so impossibly difficult to pass because it would no longer need to withstand the gauntlet of a bought Congress and Senate laden in vested interests.

As to Obama...

Why not blame the Democrats who essentially squandered their 2 year House and Senate majority? There's a reason midterms flipped; every effect has its cause. Again, you can't place all or even the majority of blame on the voters; politicians first and foremost have to earn the confidence of the people, not the inverse.

As to corporatism. I don't like candidates being beholden to big corporate lobbyists either. However, here is the problem...

Outside of Perez' embarrassing semi-coherent groping rambles about transparency in response to allegations of DNC rigging, and maybe one of Trump's public addresses, this is probably the most obtuse thing I've seen within a week. So corporatism and corruption is a bad thing but if you happen to work for a company then you'll end up thinking it's a good thing, but wait, look over there, the Republicans are worse! That about the gist of it?

You're not wrong about the Republicans being worse, but at the same time being an apologist for Dem corporatism is the wrong policy. The subversion of political office and legislation by private money is terrible no matter who does it and no matter their reason, something to be despised and at the first opportunity rectified, never ignored, minimized or glossed over. Yes, it shouldn't mean that you vote 3rd party or GOP if the alternative is truly much worse per Hillary and Trump, but that much is understood and obvious.


In general, incrementalism, or at minimum, the active pursuit of incrementalism is a proven failure, as is centrism (or its American incarnation) and status quo ideas in this political climate, losing to Donald Trump of all people. The establishment Dems have no leg to stand on outside of their funding advantage and incumbency, having lost in every way it is possible to lose. Your prescription is wrong and dangerous precisely for that reason.
 
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I understand wanting to adopt more moderate positions to appeal to a wider audience. But, what Clinton did clearly did not work. She was hoping to siphon a point or 2 off moderate republicans, when it looks like she should've offered olive branches to progressives. Because she only needed 16% of the third party vote in MI, WI, and PA to swing the election. Imagine if the DNC would've done damage control in a decent way. If they would've picked a progressive VP. I mean, they even bullied Nina Turner off the stage at the DNC. Flat out canceled her speech. They should've been offering her a campaign position. They just handled it poorly. It alienated the massive block of Bernie voters. I can go through all the steps that led us to scorned progressives.. When in the end, they needed us. They flat out needed us to vote for them.

I sympathize with you on the destruction this Trump administration is doing and will continue to do. Trump puts an ugly face on this. To me, Trump is preferable to Mike Pence, who is the GOP messaging machine perfected. I think after the GOP loots this country one last time.. American politics is going to swing left and stay there for generations. Failed Tax Cut policy is going to create more income inequality. Trump won't be able to fight globalization. He can't tweet tantrum the free market into playing nice. Trump won't be able to fight automation. Boomers retiring and needing more coverage at a cheaper price. The rise of millenials attaining maturity and doing worse than their parent's generation.. The elites have something big coming. Unfortunately, we've created a menacing surveillance state with a militarized police force that can legally detain you without probable cause. And the right's attacks on our civil liberties will continue.

Meandering aside, How do you see the midterms going?

1. Clinton ran a campaign that was further to the left policy wise than any other Democrat in my lifetime. On virtually every issue, she ran solidly liberal. She lost because of all the political baggage she had due to being in politics for 30 years. Saying Clinton did not run far enough to the left is like when right wingers claim Romney did not run far enough to the right back in 2012 when in fact he ran as a doctrinaire conservative.

2. There is no fighting globalization. It is our reality.

3. The Democrats are probably not going to do well in the midterms. The map looks terrible for them in the senate. Where they need to focus in the next couple of years is picking up governorships so they can have a check on GOP gerrymandering of congressional and statehouse seats.
 
Throwing in with the Green Party would be disastrous given the anti-democratic FPTP electoral structure of the States as they lack the access, resources, exposure and infrastructure to capture office, and short of subsuming the Democrats, would present a net liability as a spoiler. Progressives know this, and the vast majority of people who would otherwise be attracted to them know this, which is largely why they, and the Libertarians as their conservative counterpart, won't ever gain real traction. It has nothing to do with their views and stances, but the way governments are elected and the reality of the resources involved.

Well that might explain why neither of those parties can win the presidency, but it sure doesn't explain why they can't even so much as win a small town city council seat.


Right, it's called Buckley v Valeo, and it's why a constitutional amendment is necessary such that money is explicitly no longer considered speech so campaign finance reform can be meaningful.



The argument to moderation fallacy is just that; it's the polling and zeitgeist that matters, not what one perceives as being within the Overton Window of acceptability per his confirmation biases. For all the bluster about Bernie's ideas being wildly radical and unworkable, the vast majority had and continue to have overwhelming support; going left would win the election, not keeping to the centre (which is largely abandoned and displaced to the left and right in times of frustration when populism is in vogue anyways). There was no patience or appetite for centre corporatism this election cycle, or even the bull**** right wing style populism Trump offered as voter turn out proved, as did the rust belt flip.

The rust belt flipped due to depressed Democratic turnout - much of the Obama coalition didn't show up because they didn't have a rock star candidate like they did the previous two presidential elections. Trump won with a lower percentage of the vote than Romney lost with 4 years earlier.

Why not blame the Democrats who essentially squandered their 2 year House and Senate majority? There's a reason midterms flipped; every effect has its cause. Again, you can't place all or even the majority of blame on the voters; politicians first and foremost have to earn the confidence of the people, not the inverse.

They didn't squander 2 years. They actually had the most legislatively productive 2 years since the LBJ years. Look at what they walked into, the biggest financial crisis since The Great Depression. They passed the ACA, Dodd Frank, Lilly Ledbetter, 2009 Stimulus Act, 2010 Stimulus Act, the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act..... This all resulted in a huge right wing freak out where they swept the House in 2010 and the liberals didn't show up to vote.


Outside of Perez' embarrassing semi-coherent groping rambles about transparency in response to allegations of DNC rigging, and maybe one of Trump's public addresses, this is probably the most obtuse thing I've seen within a week. So corporatism and corruption is a bad thing but if you happen to work for a company then you'll end up thinking it's a good thing, but wait, look over there, the Republicans are worse! That about the gist of it?

You're not wrong about the Republicans being worse, but at the same time being an apologist for Dem corporatism is the wrong policy. The subversion of political office and legislation by private money is terrible no matter who does it and no matter their reason, something to be despised and at the first opportunity rectified, never ignored, minimized or glossed over. Yes, it shouldn't mean that you vote 3rd party or GOP if the alternative is truly much worse per Hillary and Trump, but that much is understood and obvious.


In general, incrementalism, or at minimum, the active pursuit of incrementalism is a proven failure, as is centrism (or its American incarnation) and status quo ideas in this political climate, losing to Donald Trump of all people. The establishment Dems have no leg to stand on outside of their funding advantage and incumbency, having lost in every way it is possible to lose. Your prescription is wrong and dangerous precisely for that reason.

People get frustrated when there is a deadlocked government and you get someone like Trump. People also get angry when government tries to do too much - see the 2010 elections. Unless we are in a crisis like the Great Depression, Great Recession, or in the wake of a presidential assassination (LBJ years), incrementalism is the only politically palatable way of doing anything.

My point on corporatism is that no one likes it unless it benefits the company or industry they are in. That is why we will always have it.
 
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Yes, I think the Democrats need to go left. I am an independent who leans Democrat. My ideal government is the democratic socialism of Scandinavia. I want to just learn Swedish and move to Sweden.

With a combined population of around <=>27million how are we supposed to get anything like that to work, especially since we're not supposed to mine for coal, we're not supposed to drill for oil, we can't place taxes on anything coming into our nation like foreign countries do to us, we can't do anything that Scandinavian countries do to bolster their welfare state...So, how's that supposed to work?
 
With a combined population of around <=>27million how are we supposed to get anything like that to work, especially since we're not supposed to mine for coal, we're not supposed to drill for oil, we can't place taxes on anything coming into our nation like foreign countries do to us, we can't do anything that Scandinavian countries do to bolster their welfare state...So, how's that supposed to work?

I agree that we could never get Scandinavian style democratic socialism to work in a nation of our size with our style of government (non parliamentarian), Scandinavian countries make it work by taxing about 50% of their citizens income (which of course would never be politically possible here anyway). If anything their environmental protections are stronger than ours.
 

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