Democrats block 20-week abortion ban[W:123***459]

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban[W:123]

If you think that the law itself is bad, then oppose it. You will find yourself on the opposite side of the issue of a solid majority of Americans, but that's fine in and of itself.

But opposing it because it is a compromise is stupid, and destructive towards good governance.

The Democrat party platform is infanticide up to and including after birth (apparently). Should the GOP shut down the government until we ban all abortion? Should we follow your logic? If the GOP wins the White House and retains both houses of Congress next year, should they follow your guidance and ban all abortions?

After all, we know what those dirty dems want, why should we compromise with them when they want something other than the compromise :roll:




Seriously. This is the dumbest argument I've seen raised in this issue to date.




You did. You identified a reasonable path (compromise on this topic) and then agreed that democrats weren't taking it, but defended that position.

The argument you used was "being reasonable is a recipe for disaster", and your evidence, apparently, is that neither side will get everything that it wants...

....because that's only the basis for how we actually accomplish anything in government.




If you think we should have pain-capable abortions where the child feels himself being killed, then simply support that policy.

If you think that compromise in and of itself is bad, that is very different indeed.



By arguing that you cannot compromise with others who will be as unsatisfied with the compromise as you are..... which was the conservatives argument for shutting down the government rather than compromising. They would have used the exact same argument you just did, but with the words "constitution" and "spending" replacing "choose".

Whatever.

I will champion a woman's right to control her own body...and if she chooses to terminate a pregnancy occurring in her own body, she should have that right.

I realize people like you will attempt to interfere...and will dress the intrusion in finery and claim it to be the high moral position. But you can put all the lipstick on a pig you want...it will still be a pig.

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

As you well know, Democrats voted against any enforcement or reporting mechanism 177 to 5, because the Democrat party platform is an extremist one.

It logically has to be since the Conservative position is to ban abortion. It's just how it is: the whole thing is a zero sum game. For an example of this, look at the Hyde Amendment, which was created as an olive branch to pro-life. And how is that working as far as compromises go? Did that make pro-life happy or is it seen today largely as a joke?

Point is, a step taken to limit abortion has not been regarded as an end by pro-life, but as just one in a long series of steps in the ultimate goal of banning abortion altogether. That's why we recognize the 20 week abortion ban for the PR hoax that it is.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

It logically has to be since the Conservative position is to ban abortion. It's just how it is. For an example, look at the Hyde Amendment, which was created as an olive branch to pro-life. And how is that working as far as compromises go? Did that make pro-life happy or is it seen today largely as a joke?

Point is, a step taken to limit abortion has not been regarded as an end by pro-life, but as just one in a long series of steps in the ultimate goal of banning abortion altogether. That's why we recognize the 20 week abortion ban for the PR hoax that it is.

Unfortunately, cp has already declared that perspective to the "the dumbest" argument raised on this issue to date!

Where does one go in a discussion where one side has already solidified into something like that?

 

[minnie616]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

Nice fluffy words, but what about if she's carrying a viable fetus and one that may survive outside the womb? The 20 week ban doesn't stop a woman from aborting her children's pregnancies, it sets a limit as to how late they may be since some children born later in pregnancy have a shot at life outside the womb. ....

Roe v Wade already allows states to proscribe abortions at viability even if the unborn is so malformed it is imcompatabile with life.

Most fetal abnormalities are not found until just before 20 weeks gestation when the fetal abnormality / gender ultrasound is taken. That only gives the woman and her doctor a couple of weeks to decide if she terminate the pregnacy.

 

[cpwill]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

It logically has to be since the Conservative position is to ban abortion.

:shrug: that is not the conservative position. Conservatives are split into a majority who wish to restrict abortion, and a minority who do not. Of those who wish to restrict abortion, many fall at different levels. Almost all conservatives recognize points at which the option should be available.

Even Rick Santorum's Wife went through a similar procedure, as their child was dying.

It's just how it is: the whole thing is a zero sum game. For an example of this, look at the Hyde Amendment, which was created as an olive branch to pro-life. And how is that working as far as compromises go? Did that make pro-life happy or is it seen today largely as a joke?

We are quite glad that the government is not supposed to be funding abortion,and are working to make sure that one day it even becomes reality.

Point is, a step taken to limit abortion has not been regarded as an end by pro-life, but as just one in a long series of steps in the ultimate goal of banning abortion altogether.

Yup. Just as any compromise over abortion by those who believe in being able to choose to kill your child up to and including soon after they have been born will be unhappy with a compromise position less than that.



But, again, (and you are refusing to deal with this) your argument is not necessarily an argument against this particular law. It is an argument against compromise. You are attempting to take your opposition to the 20 week restrictions, which are popular, and pass it off as though you were standing against an absolute ban, which unpopular. But you aren't. All you are doing is standing against the 20 week restrictions. It is as much of a strawman as if I were to declare that my opposition to gay marriage were rooted in my belief that we shouldn't have polygamy, or legalize pederasty.

That's why we recognize the 20 week abortion ban for the PR hoax that it is.

It is an attempt to save the children that we can.

 

[cpwill]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

Unfortunately, cp has already declared that perspective to the "the dumbest" argument raised on this issue to date!

That is because it is. "We Can't Strike A Compromise Because You Won't Like It Any More Than We Do" is, indeed, the dumbest argument raised on this topic.

 

[cpwill]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban[W:123]

Whatever.

I will champion a woman's right to control her own body...and if she chooses to terminate a pregnancy occurring in her own body, she should have that right.

:shrug: and I will champion not engaging in violence against the most vulnerable among us because we find them inconvenient.

But posturing about our intentions doesn't actually address any of the arguments. They are just ways for us to morally preen.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

We are quite glad that the government is not supposed to be funding abortion,and are working to make sure that one day it even becomes reality.

It is an attempt to save the children that we can.

:applaud:thumbs:

 

[Cardinal]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

:shrug: that is not the conservative position. Conservatives are split into a majority who wish to restrict abortion, and a minority who do not. Of those who wish to restrict abortion, many fall at different levels. Almost all conservatives recognize points at which the option should be available.

Even Rick Santorum's Wife went through a similar procedure, as their child was dying.



We are quite glad that the government is not supposed to be funding abortion,and are working to make sure that one day it even becomes reality.



Yup. Just as any compromise over abortion by those who believe in being able to choose to kill your child up to and including soon after they have been born will be unhappy with a compromise position less than that.



But, again, (and you are refusing to deal with this) your argument is not necessarily an argument against this particular law. It is an argument against compromise. You are attempting to take your opposition to the 20 week restrictions, which are popular, and pass it off as though you were standing against an absolute ban, which unpopular. But you aren't. All you are doing is standing against the 20 week restrictions. It is as much of a strawman as if I were to declare that my opposition to gay marriage were rooted in my belief that we shouldn't have polygamy, or legalize pederasty.



It is an attempt to save the children that we can.

You make my point for me. That you see abortion as the killing of children defines the issue as a zero sum game. There's no compromise in such a situation, unless you're going to tell me that you can't accept "the murder of babies" after twenty weeks, but that somehow you can settle for "baby murder' before twenty weeks, in which case my response would be that you must really think we're stupid.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

That you see abortion as the killing of children defines the issue as a zero sum game.

It just means he has 20/20 vision.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

You make my point for me. That you see abortion as the killing of children defines the issue as a zero sum game. There's no compromise in such a situation, unless you're going to tell me that you can't accept "the murder of babies" after twenty weeks, but that somehow you can settle for "baby murder' before twenty weeks, in which case my response would be that you must really think we're stupid.

Reasoned perfectly...and stated beautifully, Cardinal. Thank you.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

Wow, politics has finally sunk to such a level of irrelevance and hypocrisy there is a crisis involving a disagreement and divergence over a ban on banning.

:doh

The world is controlled by morons.

 

[nota bene]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

Oh, please. :roll:

 

[Peter King]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

That's as reasonable as saying that the decision about whether or not to allow my neighbor to continue living or not should be mine.

Which is to say not at ****ing all reasonable. Me hiring someone to kill someone else is never acceptable; it should not be acceptable for anyone else either.

What is reasonable in making a law about nothing? A law that is not much more than window dressing and crowd pleasing your own severely extreme anti-abortion followers?

Because as we all know, 98.8% of all abortions are done prior to week 20, so why make a law about something that is not an issue at all? And most if not all of the abortions after week 20 will most likely be because of medical reasons rather than elective reasons.

So why whine about a law that means nothing? Maybe because it gives the people who voted "yes" the option to proclaim their pro-life status in the next round of elections or so that the challengers to democrats who voted "no" have a tool to use against the democratic incumbent because as everyone know, this law is about nothing at all (when it comes to the substance of it).

And the rest of your post is just the same meaningless and/or incorrect points you keep making all of the times.

1. nobody is asking you to make choices about whether your neighbor to live or die, that is just total nonsense to bring this up in a discussion about abortion. If anything, it is you who wants to have the unreasonable right to decide what your neighbor (female) can and cannot do in the early part of her pregnancy. Sorry, but this argument of yours makes no sense whatsoever.

2. nobody is asking or forcing you to kill someone to hire someone else, so again, your comment makes no sense whatsoever in the abortion discussion.

3. in abortion no-one is hiring someone to kill someone else. There are no 2 someones in the issue of abortion, there is the pregnant woman and that is it, the zygote is not "someone". Also, it is not hiring to kill, it is hiring to abort. You might not think there is a distinction between the 2 but most reasonable people will know that there is a huge difference between a hired killing (aka murder) and abortion.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

What is reasonable in making a law about nothing?

Well for one thing, it's good because it helps pro-aborts and the politicians they support show their ass and go on record as supporting infanticide.

This will help them lose elections. Works for me.

nobody is asking you to make choices about whether your neighbor to live or die

Of course not. My body, my gun, my choice, though, right? I am clearly a slave since I can't just go shoot him, boo hoo hoo.


This is literally the pro-abort argument. No hyperbole, no exaggeration. If it looks stupid in this context, guess what - it looks stupid in the original context too!

in abortion no-one is hiring someone to kill someone else

Objectively false. This statement is not just delusional it is ignorant and hateful.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

. This statement is not just delusional it is ignorant and hateful.

I realize I am probably breaking one of the forum's rules, but pointing out the irony of you, Jay, describing the posting of someone else as "ignorant and hateful" is simply too much to resist.

I apologize to the forum.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

I realize I am probably breaking one of the forum's rules, but pointing out the irony of you, Jay, describing the posting of someone else as "ignorant and hateful" is simply too much to resist.

I apologize to the forum.

You most assuredly are, as I was just talking about the post, and you're talking about me.

He is saying that abortion victims - fellow members of the species Homo sapiens - literally don't even exist.

That is ignorant of scientific fact, it is dehumanizing, and it is hateful towards the unborn.

It is entirely in line with the dehumanizing words and actions of the worst monsters in history.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

You most assuredly are, as I was just talking about the post, and you're talking about me.

He is saying that abortion victims - fellow members of the species Homo sapiens - literally don't even exist.

That is ignorant of scientific fact, it is dehumanizing, and it is hateful towards the unborn.

It is entirely in line with the dehumanizing words and actions of the worst monsters in history.

Sounds to me as though you are talking about him.

Anyway...my response is: Please refer to my post 441!

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

Sounds to me as though you are talking about him.

Well if you would read the plain English sentence I typed, maybe you'd realize you're wrong. Doubt it!

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

Well if you would read the plain English sentence I typed, maybe you'd realize you're wrong. Doubt it!

You most assuredly are, as I was just talking about the post, and you're talking about me.

He is saying that abortion victims - fellow members of the species Homo sapiens - literally don't even exist.

That is ignorant of scientific fact, it is dehumanizing, and it is hateful towards the unborn.

It is entirely in line with the dehumanizing words and actions of the worst monsters in history.

Sounds to me as though you are talking about him.

 

[betuadollar]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

Native American women would regularly kill their children if they became an insurmountable burden, or liability; that is not to say there was no natural aversion, only that it was relegated to the greater need of tribal security. As for the colonial, though, I suspect his laws prohibiting such behavior actually predates Christianity, which at the time of settlement had only been with us for some few hundreds of years at best. Who's to say really when the taking of life was outlawed as "murder"?

The Left would have us believe that the woman's right, like that of the Native American, is absolute. While the Right chooses to remain firm in their conviction that to grow our people in the wilderness, every life must be deemed precious. Which brings us to the present subject of abortion...

 

[Deuce]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

You most assuredly are, as I was just talking about the post, and you're talking about me.

He is saying that abortion victims - fellow members of the species Homo sapiens - literally don't even exist.

That is ignorant of scientific fact, it is dehumanizing, and it is hateful towards the unborn.

It is entirely in line with the dehumanizing words and actions of the worst monsters in history.

He isn't saying there isn't a fetus. He's saying the fetus isn't a person.

That's not difficult to understand. An important facet of being a grownup is the ability to see things from a perspective other than your own. I suggest you try it sometime.

 

[JayDubya]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

Sounds to me as though you are talking about him.

You even increased the font size on the text that spells out explicitly that I'm being critical of his statement.

:doh

If it "sounds like" something else to you, get your damn hearing checked.

He isn't saying there isn't a fetus. He's saying the fetus isn't a person.

He's saying an abortion victim - another human being, another member of our species - doesn't constitute "someone else."

No, it's not difficult to understand that his words were inaccurate, ignorant, and dehumanizing.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

You even increased the font size on the text that spells out explicitly that I'm being critical of his statement.

:doh

If it "sounds like" something else to you, get your damn hearing checked.



He's saying an abortion victim - another human being, another member of our species - doesn't constitute "someone else."

No, it's not difficult to understand that his words were inaccurate, ignorant, and dehumanizing.

This train has left the station, Jay.

Your side lost...and I am delighted it did.

Any woman who has to consider abortion is going through a terrible time...and making one of the most difficult decisions she will ever make. No woman should have someone like you making the decision any more difficult with your sanctimonious nonsense.


I am happy the Dems did what they did. I hope they show the same amount of courage when other measures of this kind come before them.

 

[AGENT J]

Re: Democrats block 20-week abortion ban

Well for one thing, it's good because it helps pro-aborts and the politicians they support show their ass and go on record as supporting infanticide.

This will help them lose elections. Works for me.



Of course not. My body, my gun, my choice, though, right? I am clearly a slave since I can't just go shoot him, boo hoo hoo.


This is literally the pro-abort argument. No hyperbole, no exaggeration. If it looks stupid in this context, guess what - it looks stupid in the original context too!



Objectively false. This statement is not just delusional it is ignorant and hateful.

abortion =/= infanticide LMAO
abortion =/= hiring a hit man to murder

never has been never will be, more posted lies that completely fail