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Death toll rises in South Africa as violence and pogroms, looting spreads

Fledermaus said:
And have I stated, inferred or implied Afrikaaners should be treated any differently than others?

I simply said they aren't native to the land.
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OK. I get you.

I thought that you were implying that the Bantu were native to South Africa...which they are not as your link shows.

The Khoisan people were indigenous to Southern Africa, but were mostly wiped out by the Bantu people coming down from Central Africa and the early Dutch settlers to the Western Cape.
 
Fledermaus said:
The same can be said for much of South America and Mexico. Venezuela ring a bell? Argentina?
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I agree that many nations have problems but, having lived in Africa as well as being widely travelled, I have never seen more poverty, corruption and violence than in Africa.
 
Ginza said:
OK. I get you.

I thought that you were implying that the Bantu were native to South Africa...which they are not as your link shows.

The Khoisan people were indigenous to Southern Africa, but were mostly wiped out by the Bantu people coming down from Central Africa and the early Dutch settlers to the Western Cape.
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Bantu people predate whites by a thousand years.

The moved into the Khosian areas about 1,500 years ago.
 
danielpalos said:
Whatever happened to the African Union for situations such as these?
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I guess it's a localised internal issue rather than a war etc.

The police and army should have got on top of the problem far sooner. They are as corrupt and inefficient and a pale shadow of what they used to be before Mandela came to power.
 
Fledermaus said:
Bantu people predate whites by a thousand years.
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But not where the whites originally settled, the Western Cape. The Afrikaners only moved out of the Western Cape in the 1800's.

When I was a kid, there were hardly any Bantu people in Cape Town and today they are still a minority there.

"The ethnic and racial composition of Cape Town is: 42.4% "Coloured" 38.6% "Black African" 15.7% "White"

Coloured in South Africa refers to those who are usually a mix of Malay (brought to Cape Town by the Dutch), Khoisan and white.

Today, after the relatively recent large influx of Black people into the Cape, they would include the product of white and black people.

The Western Cape is ruled by the mostly coloured/white Democratic Alliance Party and is a very well run area generally, although there is much drug use/crime/gang activity amongst the coloured community.
 
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Ginza said:
But not where the whites originally settled, the Western Cape. The Afrikaners only moved out of the Western Cape in the 1800's.

When I was a kid, there were hardly any Bantu people in Cape Town and today they are still a minority there.

"The ethnic and racial composition of Cape Town is: 42.4% "Coloured" 38.6% "Black African" 15.7% "White"

Coloured in South Africa refers to those who are usually a mix of Malay (brought to Cape Town by the Dutch), Khoisan and white.

Today, after the relatively recent large influx of Black people into the Cape, they would include the product of white and black people.

The Western Cape is ruled by the mostly coloured/white Democratic Alliance Party and is a very well run area generally, although there is much drug use/crime/gang activity amongst the coloured community.
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Ah, the sound of ever moving goalposts.....

Cape Town is but a tiny sliver of South Africa.
 
Fledermaus said:
The same can be said for much of South America and Mexico. Venezuela ring a bell? Argentina?

The old joke used to be the earth makes one revolution a year, except in South American where the average is greater. Or take the Middle East. Without the oil pumps it too would be a shithole. How about Eastern Europe? Greece is the sick man of Europe now. Syria? Lebanon?
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Mexico hasn’t had a revolution in over a century.

In any event, all of those countries, except for Venezuela have more effective administration then South Africa. And you can tell because South Africa was economically rich, had an effective military, well run public utilities pre-apartheid and post apartheid has seen the progressive triumph of ideology over prudence. Their electrical utility is falling apart and yet they’re constantly purging white workers to hire blacks, only thr blacks they hire are not qualified and so the electricity gets worse every year. It’s funny because Latin America you criticize for not being well developed, but the present regime was gifted modern infrastructure and British legal system and has basically squandered it away. They literally cannot merely keep what they were given
 
danielpalos said:
I would think intervention on the part of the African Union would be justified for humanitarian purposes.
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I think Zuma should be let out of prison first. Arresting former politicians is a sign of a generally corrupt state and it was needlessly provocative
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Mexico hasn’t had a revolution in over a century.

In any event, all of those countries, except for Venezuela have more effective administration then South Africa. And you can tell because South Africa was economically rich, had an effective military, well run public utilities pre-apartheid and post apartheid has seen the progressive triumph of ideology over prudence. Their electrical utility is falling apart and yet they’re constantly purging white workers to hire blacks, only thr blacks they hire are not qualified and so the electricity gets worse every year. It’s funny because Latin America you criticize for not being well developed, but the present regime was gifted modern infrastructure and British legal system and has basically squandered it away. They literally cannot merely keep what they were given
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Mexico also isn't South America.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
www.bbc.co.uk

South Africa Zuma riots: Fact-checking claims about the protests

We've looked at some examples of misleading images and videos, claiming to be from the current protests.
www.bbc.co.uk


Unsurprisingly, twitter accounts and instigators from White Nationalist groups are getting themselves involved in stoking up what is happening in South Africa.
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Ginza said:
It's not a stupid conclusion at all....and you know it.

Even a small child can watch the many videos coming out of SA and see who is looting and pillaging....and yet all you can contribute here is criticism of whites.

It is all about blacks acting criminally because of the fact that the black Jacob Zuma has been jailed for corruption.

Just watch the videos and don't post nonsense.
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I quote myself for evidence. White nationalist groups around the world have always gotten involved where South Africa and Zimbabwe are concerned and they are doing it again. That is indisputable - and I challenge you to prove me wrong.

www.opendemocracy.net

Global white supremacy cult: How the South African radical Right bolsters US extremism

Some radical right-wing South African groups have travelled to the US in efforts to expand their organisational networks
www.opendemocracy.net www.opendemocracy.net

www.bbc.co.uk

Janusz Walus: Why far-right Polish football fans idolise a murderer in South Africa

Janusz Walus killed anti-apartheid leader Chris Hani in 1993, sparking fears of a racial civil war.
www.bbc.co.uk


Australia and Apartheid: The Ties That Bind on JSTOR

Ron Witton, Australia and Apartheid: The Ties That Bind, The Australian Quarterly, Vol. 45, No. 2 (Jun., 1973), pp. 18-31
www.jstor.org www.jstor.org

I haven't said anything about the looting or pillaging - just about the vultures around the edge who always use majority rule in South Africa as a way to snidely imply that Africans will never be able to run their own countries.

Your own posts in this thread continue the idea that things were fabulous before majority rule, you're here as a shill for white domination of African lands.

Thus, your conclusion is inherently stupid. You jumped to a stupid conclusion about my post, without reading it or thinking about what I said, you didn't read the link either but jumped to a conclusion that has no basis in rational thought whatsoever.

Now, give me your evidence that I am here in any post talking about current looting and pillaging or trying to derail the thread.
 
Ginza said:
I suggest that you read up on the history of South Africa.

There were no Bantu people in the Cape when the Afrikaners arrived there.
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Give me your link to this version of history please? I'm supposing you never heard of Mapungubwe and hundreds of other towns / villages and settlements in Southern Africa? What about the San and KhoeKhoe people?

Do they not have any history in your version of Africa?

Ginza said:
There is no evidence from South Africa that the blacks elected to run the government have done anything but ruin the nations economy.

Similar situations exist all over Africa.....the most backward continent in the world.
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It's only a small step to confessing being a supporter of patriarchal colonialisation. Democracy and western ideal have only just reached Africa after centuries of colonialisation and you're judging them against Western standards which took millenia to arrive at.

Fledermaus said:
Ah, the sound of ever moving goalposts.....

Cape Town is but a tiny sliver of South Africa.
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I noticed that too. The Boers and British supporters took great lengths to wipe out examples of any history before their arrival and conquest.
 
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Infinite Chaos said:
I haven't said anything about the looting or pillaging - just about the vultures around the edge who always use majority rule in South Africa as a way to snidely imply that Africans will never be able to run their own countries.
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Then perhaps you should stop avoiding talking about the looting and pillaging instead of being devious and bringing up whites as "stoking up what is happening in South Africa"

This is a time when you can't pathetically blame the "whites". This is a conflict between factions of the ruling ANC....the Zuma faction and the faction that supports Ramaphosa (Zuma's predecessor).

I am waiting for you to show me one video where whites can be seen looting or pillaging or even "stoking up" blacks to loot and pillage.

Apartheid is gone. The mess in South Africa is caused by black people.

Stop trying to blame the whites. That ship has long since sailed.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Your own posts in this thread continue the idea that things were fabulous before majority rule
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Yawn! Where have I used the word fabulous or anything similar?

Stop making things up.

The economy of South Africa has weakened considerably over the past twenty years or so.

I don't know anyone who disputes that.

Corruption is rife and it now has one of the highest murder rates in the world.

Just read up a little before posting utter nonsense.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
I'm supposing you never heard of Mapungubwe and hundreds of other towns / villages and settlements in Southern Africa?
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This in reply to my post :

"There were no Bantu people in the Cape when the Afrikaners arrived there."

You're making a fool of yourself now.

Mapungubwe is 2 000 Km from Cape Town.

:ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO: :ROFLMAO:


Infinite Chaos said:
The Boers and British supporters took great lengths to wipe out examples of any history before their arrival and conquest.
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Er, the Boers and British were enemies. What "support" are you babbling about?

Read up on the Boer Wars.

I wonder how they could have wiped out anything " before their arrival and conquest."

It appears that you are just making things up with no respect for fact.

But please let us know what they "wiped out" in your opinion, so we can discuss it.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
White nationalist groups around the world have always gotten involved where South Africa and Zimbabwe are concerned and they are doing it again.
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I suggest you educate yourself by reading this well written article on what is causing the violence :

"Why have South Africans been on a looting rampage?"​


"A variety of narratives have emerged in an effort to explain the looting frenzy. Some have accused die-hard supporters of former president Jacob Zuma of fuelling the unrest. Others have intimated that the looting is a consequence of state capture and the high level of criminality in South Africa.

There have been suggestions that the current disorder is akin to a rebellion of the poor brought about by acute food insecurity."

Incidents of looting have often been synonymous with outbreaks of xenophobic violence and service delivery protests."

We noted in our study the uncomfortable reality that a key driver of looting was that it was perceived by the looters to be socially acceptable. And it was often encouraged and endorsed within social and community networks."

Brokerage has been a central feature of the current looting spree in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng. Supporters of Jacob Zuma have been actively encouraging South Africans to engage in acts of violence and civil disobedience."

Where are your White nationalist groups picking up any blame here?

theconversation.com

Why have South Africans been on a looting rampage? Research offers insights

An uncomfortable reality is that looting is perceived by the looters to be socially acceptable and is often encouraged and endorsed within social and community networks.
theconversation.com theconversation.com
 
Infinite Chaos said:
and you're judging them against Western standards
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No. I'm judging them against common human decency.

In South Africa there is a tradition called Ubuntu. It means to treat others decently or as you would want to be treated yourself.

I judge them on this standard. Their own.

It is easy for black Americans to somehow play the victim and blame whites for their own looting and pillaging....as they are in the minority and can claim they are being persecuted by a cruel majority......however falsely.

In South Africa, blacks run the country. Whites are less than 9% of the population with little political power.

You can't blame your usual whipping boy, the whites, in this case.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
Give me your link to this version of history please? I'm supposing you never heard of Mapungubwe and hundreds of other towns / villages and settlements in Southern Africa? What about the San and KhoeKhoe people?

Do they not have any history in your version of Africa?



It's only a small step to confessing being a supporter of patriarchal colonialisation. Democracy and western ideal have only just reached Africa after centuries of colonialisation and you're judging them against Western standards which took millenia to arrive at.



I noticed that too. The Boers and British supporters took great lengths to wipe out examples of any history before their arrival and conquest.
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I mean the amounts of cognitive dissonance it takes to write this must be astounding.

This is basically a confession that Democracy is new to South Africa, having been brought by white colonists, and that the now majority black elected government needs a long time to learn how to competently manage a country that is one of the most violent and dysfunctional in the world. Astounding
 
EMNofSeattle said:
I mean the amounts of cognitive dissonance it takes to write this must be astounding.

This is basically a confession that Democracy is new to South Africa, having been brought by white colonists, and that the now majority black elected government needs a long time to learn how to competently manage a country that is one of the most violent and dysfunctional in the world. Astounding
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OK, what democratic principles and structures existed among the Khoisan and Bantu peoples before colonialism? I'd be impressed with your evidence as I often find myself battling with white nationalists online.
 
Infinite Chaos said:
OK, what democratic principles and structures existed among the Khoisan and Bantu peoples before colonialism? I'd be impressed with your evidence as I often find myself battling with white nationalists online.
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Well the fact you view all opposition to your POV as “white nationalism” coupled with a rhetorical response to a claim I didn’t make shows you are not in good faith
 
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