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death penality and abortion

anomaly said:
This argument I can respect, I know too many Christians that claim that the 4 billion non-Chirstians on the earth are doomed to Hell.
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Then you have just met at least one who would say a good number of the people who consider themselves Christians are going to Hell. But you tell me. If there were a heaven, this perfect place where God resided, do you think you deserve to go there? Do you think you've done something in your life that warrants your place next to a divine God? I know I haven't. But I would argue that through the sacrifice of Jesus He has extended that privelage. But all you can see is Christians condemn, whereas in all actuality, what Christians are doing is informing you that if there is a way to get into heaven, here it is, and you're saying they're horrible and judgemental for doing so? Wouldn't it be much more sinister and malicious for a Christian just to never tell you how to get into heaven and let you go to hell? Seems that way to me.
 
bad An!

Speaking verbally with god doesn't happen. I think when someone speaks with god they use their emoitions and their thoughts in order to communicate with this divine power which erected them. This divine power doesn't need your english language to communicate with you. This communication with god could be from your and gods actions.. together.. like mute animals forming communications beyond words.
 
sebastiansdreams said:
Then you have just met at least one who would say a good number of the people who consider themselves Christians are going to Hell. But you tell me. If there were a heaven, this perfect place where God resided, do you think you deserve to go there? Do you think you've done something in your life that warrants your place next to a divine God? I know I haven't. But I would argue that through the sacrifice of Jesus He has extended that privelage. But all you can see is Christians condemn, whereas in all actuality, what Christians are doing is informing you that if there is a way to get into heaven, here it is, and you're saying they're horrible and judgemental for doing so? Wouldn't it be much more sinister and malicious for a Christian just to never tell you how to get into heaven and let you go to hell? Seems that way to me.
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am I going to hell for my beliefs?
 
anomaly said:
It's called empirical evidence. Anyone not blind can see the sun, we know it's there. But only some can see God, only some speak with him. Am I defected, am I somehow not right? And it is because of this lack of ability to see your God that I am now doomed to Hell? That's a religion I want no part of.
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Okay, you're taking the stance of "I can see it so it must be real." Alright, then prove to me that there are men in China. That I cannot see from here. So empirically, there are no men in China. And no, you are "doomed to Hell" as you put it, because you don't deserve to go to heaven, do you? I mean what have you done to deserve paradise?
 
Arch Enemy said:
am I going to hell for my beliefs?
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Of course not. You and everyone else is destined for Hell because they don't deserve heaven, myself included. I've done nothing to "earn" heaven. But, Jesus gave us an alternative to that, by sacrificing himself through crucifixion, and all He asks is that you recognize that He did this as God's son, and that you accept that gift he is offering by forming a personal relationship with Him
 
sebastiansdreams said:
Then you have just met at least one who would say a good number of the people who consider themselves Christians are going to Hell. But you tell me. If there were a heaven, this perfect place where God resided, do you think you deserve to go there? Do you think you've done something in your life that warrants your place next to a divine God? I know I haven't. But I would argue that through the sacrifice of Jesus He has extended that privelage. But all you can see is Christians condemn, whereas in all actuality, what Christians are doing is informing you that if there is a way to get into heaven, here it is, and you're saying they're horrible and judgemental for doing so? Wouldn't it be much more sinister and malicious for a Christian just to never tell you how to get into heaven and let you go to hell? Seems that way to me.
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You're getting into the whole realm of Pascal's Wager aren't you?
 
I believe that if you think you are going to heaven when you die, you will. If you think you are going to hell when you die, you will. If you think you are going to (please correct me) Vahalla when you die, then you will.

Bible thumpers give Chrisitans a bad name.
 
shuamort said:
You're getting into the whole realm of Pascal's Wager aren't you?
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NO, Pascal claimed you should believe in Christ because there is nothing to lose. I offer that believing in Christ brings fullfillment, joy, and salvation. Not just because I'm safer that way, but because I'm saved and i'm fulfilled and joyful that way.
 
sebastiansdreams said:
NO, Pascal claimed you should believe in Christ because there is nothing to lose. I offer that believing in Christ brings fullfillment, joy, and salvation. Not just because I'm safer that way, but because I'm saved and i'm fulfilled and joyful that way.
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Amen..

I believe that as well, that I am saved and I am loving that.

I don't think the alternatives are going to hell.. They go where they are destined.
 
Arch Enemy said:
I believe that if you think you are going to heaven when you die, you will. If you think you are going to hell when you die, you will. If you think you are going to (please correct me) Vahalla when you die, then you will.

Bible thumpers give Chrisitans a bad name.
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So theoretically, no matter what you've done or believed in your life, as long as you believe you're going to heaven in the end that's where you're going? And who on earth thinks they deserve hell? Furthermore, you are personally writing doctorine based on nothing but your own wishful thinking. Your creating your own religion because it's convinient to you. Now that gives religion a bad name.
 
No, it's not giving it a bad name nor is it making up my own.

I interpret my religion differently than you do.. I've never seen in my religion "hate the Jews for they hate you too" or "kill the muslims they are going to hell any ways"

I love my religion, I love being Christian, I love being a big part of my church...

but I have Toleration.. and Toleration is what I use for my interpretations..

Jesus will agree with me, that it is better to tolerate then the hate.

Plus I just listed two types of heaven.. it's just a freaking translation.
 
sebastiansdreams said:
Okay, you're taking the stance of "I can see it so it must be real." Alright, then prove to me that there are men in China. That I cannot see from here. So empirically, there are no men in China. And no, you are "doomed to Hell" as you put it, because you don't deserve to go to heaven, do you? I mean what have you done to deserve paradise?
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Actually, empirical evidence is not just 'I see it, so it is there'. What I'm saying is that we know Chian is there because some people have been there, because we have mapped it. Now, when someone from heaven comes here to assure us it's there, I'll believe in heaven.

So wait, you're saying that everyone is going to hell?
 
sebastiansdreams said:
Of course not. You and everyone else is destined for Hell because they don't deserve heaven, myself included. I've done nothing to "earn" heaven. But, Jesus gave us an alternative to that, by sacrificing himself through crucifixion, and all He asks is that you recognize that He did this as God's son, and that you accept that gift he is offering by forming a personal relationship with Him
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There is no such place as hell. You're missing a knowledge of 1st century Jewish eschatology.

In the Jewish view of the endtimes, everybody was going to be resurrected and judged on the last day. The good people would get eternal lifen and the bad people would be anihilated in Gehenna - the valley of Hinnon - which was a garbage dump southwest of Jerusalem. It was a disposal site for animal carcasses and sometimes the bodies of criminals. People kept fires burning to try to destroy the rotting corpses and get rid of the smell. It was also thought to have once been a site of human sacrifice for ancient Canaanites and so was considered an unholy, ignoble place to have one's body disposed of. This valley full of burning piles of garbage and carcasses became the supposed site where the unrighteous would be destroyed (destroyed, not eternally punished) on judgement day.

There are several times in Matthew where Jesus specifically names Gehenna and all of these instances are often incorrectly translated as "Hell" in English Bibles. There was no such concept as an eternal Hell in 1st century Judaism and there is no such concept in the Bible.
 
shua did you just do that off the top of your head? or did you use a website to remeber that? I hardly did....


what are your thoughts on Jesus, the messiah?
 
Arch Enemy said:
No, it's not giving it a bad name nor is it making up my own.

I interpret my religion differently than you do.. I've never seen in my religion "hate the Jews for they hate you too" or "kill the muslims they are going to hell any ways"

I love my religion, I love being Christian, I love being a big part of my church...

but I have Toleration.. and Toleration is what I use for my interpretations..

Jesus will agree with me, that it is better to tolerate then the hate.

Plus I just listed two types of heaven.. it's just a freaking translation.
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Really? So Jesus will take back what he said about "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light, none can come to heaven accept through me?
You are not practicing Christianity, you are taking what you think and making it Gospel. It has nothing to do with toleration. It has to do with the necessity for us to accept Jesus as a savior.
There is a huge canyon between toleration and hate. Jesus loves us. But that does not mean that God is obligated to let us into His kindgom if we do not accept the sacrifice of Jesus.
There's a large difference between "translation" and taking an idea and altering it completely. You are not attempting to find the intended meaning of the Biblical scriptures, you are ignoring them altogether. That is not translation, in is speculation.
 
so...

No I believe that we as Christians, have to believe in Christ, our Christ. I believe that it IS only through him that we go to heaven, but if you have the mind-frame your destined for hell, then you will go to hell.

It is my interpretation of Southern Baptist teachings.
 
sebastiansdreams said:
Really? So Jesus will take back what he said about "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light, none can come to heaven accept through me?
You are not practicing Christianity, you are taking what you think and making it Gospel. It has nothing to do with toleration. It has to do with the necessity for us to accept Jesus as a savior.
There is a huge canyon between toleration and hate. Jesus loves us. But that does not mean that God is obligated to let us into His kindgom if we do not accept the sacrifice of Jesus.
There's a large difference between "translation" and taking an idea and altering it completely. You are not attempting to find the intended meaning of the Biblical scriptures, you are ignoring them altogether. That is not translation, in is speculation.
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He is simply taking a perspective! For you to say that his perspective, his opinion on something even you probably do not fully understand, is extremely arrogant. I have encountered this type of Christian before, one who believes only his interpretation is true, and that all others are somehow wrong. I'm sorry, but you are not all knowing, so please stop conveying such arrogance.
 
anomaly said:
Actually, empirical evidence is not just 'I see it, so it is there'. What I'm saying is that we know Chian is there because some people have been there, because we have mapped it. Now, when someone from heaven comes here to assure us it's there, I'll believe in heaven.

So wait, you're saying that everyone is going to hell?
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I didn't postulate it's not there. I just said there were no men there. Just because someone has been there doesn't necessarly mean that there are men there. And we certainly can't assume there are men there because there are maps there. And we cannot, as you say, believe testimony from others that there are men there, for I myself cannot see them.
I would argue someone from heaven did come. In the form of angels and Jesus of Nazareth. "there is a place for you in My Father's kindgom, if it were not so I would have told you"

No, I'm telling you no one deserves heaven. Only through accepting the blood sacrifice of the Son of God is anyone allowed to enter the gates of heaven. You cannot deserve it, only Jesus can allow you in. But that depends on you accepting his gift of sacrifice and seeking a personal relationship with Him.
 
Seb,

Please reply to Shau.. he has a historical fact. I'd like to see how you'll "knock" that down.

Also, in my teachings, God loves us.. god will do anything for us "For god so loved us that he sent his only begotten son that who shall ever believeth in him shall not parish but have enternal life" John 3:16, if go loves us so and sent his son for us to believe in then why are you talking about people being "worthy" can one LOVE jesus more than you or I do?
 
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Arch Enemy said:
so...

No I believe that we as Christians, have to believe in Christ, our Christ. I believe that it IS only through him that we go to heaven, but if you have the mind-frame your destined for hell, then you will go to hell.

It is my interpretation of Southern Baptist teachings.
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Okay, from the Bible, quote to me some scriptures that would allow you to believe that wherever you decide you are going when you die is where you end up. If you can support that Biblically then we deliberate from there. Otherwise, I am holding to my belief that you have no reason, textually to believe this.
 
sebastiansdreams said:
I didn't postulate it's not there. I just said there were no men there. Just because someone has been there doesn't necessarly mean that there are men there. And we certainly can't assume there are men there because there are maps there. And we cannot, as you say, believe testimony from others that there are men there, for I myself cannot see them.
I would argue someone from heaven did come. In the form of angels and Jesus of Nazareth. "there is a place for you in My Father's kindgom, if it were not so I would have told you"

No, I'm telling you no one deserves heaven. Only through accepting the blood sacrifice of the Son of God is anyone allowed to enter the gates of heaven. You cannot deserve it, only Jesus can allow you in. But that depends on you accepting his gift of sacrifice and seeking a personal relationship with Him.
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The whole 'you cannot know China or the sun exists' argument has turned a bit sour. But again, what you're saying is that only Christians will go to heaven, atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus will all go to hell. That is why I'm not a Christian: I am not able to condemn 4 billion decent human beings to hell because they 'got it wrong'. Arch Enemy is right: If there is a God, He has not chosen one right religion; He will award a right life, not right belief.
 
anomaly said:
He is simply taking a perspective! For you to say that his perspective, his opinion on something even you probably do not fully understand, is extremely arrogant. I have encountered this type of Christian before, one who believes only his interpretation is true, and that all others are somehow wrong. I'm sorry, but you are not all knowing, so please stop conveying such arrogance.
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Uh oh, we've resorted to calling names. I'm not claiming to know all the answers, because I don't. In fact, to the contrary, tonight every arguement I have used has come from the New Testament. This is not my argument, this is the Bible's argument. If you dont' agree with it, then consult the author, don't claim that I'm being arrogant because I quote scripture. I don't think I'm even conveying an interpretation. I have said "well I believe this means this" or "you are definitely going to hell for this" or whatever. All I've done is show you what the Bible states about each issue you're coming to me with
 
old testament esta bogus. It is a bunch of Metaphors for our lives, pretty much similar to the buddhist ideals and stories.. but I believe in the Old Testament.
 
sebastiansdreams said:
Uh oh, we've resorted to calling names. I'm not claiming to know all the answers, because I don't. In fact, to the contrary, tonight every arguement I have used has come from the New Testament. This is not my argument, this is the Bible's argument. If you dont' agree with it, then consult the author, don't claim that I'm being arrogant because I quote scripture. I don't think I'm even conveying an interpretation. I have said "well I believe this means this" or "you are definitely going to hell for this" or whatever. All I've done is show you what the Bible states about each issue you're coming to me with
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So all Christians who 'got it wrong' like Arch Enemy will join myself and other 'sinners' in Hell? Quite an opinion you've got there. Some people go there entire lives not hearing the 'blessed' word of Jesus Christ; do they go to hell in your opinion?
 
duh Ano.

This is a prime example of a Bible Thumper. He cannot make his religious decisions unless it is CLEARLY stated in the Bible...

Hell dude, we are Christians.. we are of a different religion than Jesus.. we are doomed to hell then.... SHIZZER!
 
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