Court Rules Wisconsin Right-to-Work Law Is Unconstitutional (1 Viewer)

[minnie616]

Who disagrees with that? I don't have school aged children and I have no problem with part of my taxation going to the education of children. It's one of the few things I think government should fund. Our difference is that you want education funding only to go to the government monopoly that uses some of that funding to elect politicians who fully support that government monopoly. On the other hand, I want parents to have options and not just be saddled with their local school, often providing inferior and incompetent services with little or no accountability.

Parents can send their children to a public school using tax payers money or they may choose a private school but they need to use private non tax payer funds for private schools.

The tax money that public schools receive helps those schools educate the students in district including the physically disabled, those with physical handicaps, those with emotional problems and those with learning disabilities.

The public seems to disagree with opinion.

Voters voted down school vouchers in 25 elections in 14 states since 1966.

IN THE 2000 ELECTIONS voters in two large and important states, California and Michigan, overwhelmingly rejected voucher schemes in statewide referenda. These voters handed advocates of public aid to private and parochial schools their 23rd and 24th defeats in 25 elections held in 14 states since 1966.

Americans for Religious Liberty

 

[CanadaJohn]

Parents can send their children to a public school using tax payers money or they may choose a private school but they need to use private non tax payer funds for private schools.

The tax money that public schools receive helps those schools educate the students in district including the physically disabled, those with physical handicaps, those with emotional problems and those with learning disabilities.

The public seems to disagree with opinion.

Voters voted down school vouchers in 25 elections in 14 states since 1966.



Americans for Religious Liberty

2000 is a long time ago, and it all depends on the wording of the referendum. People in California also voted against gay marriage, but I'm sure you're not too interested in following the majority rule in that matter.

What you continue to fail to acknowledge is that vouchers are not just to fund private schools - they can also be used to allow children to attend the public school of their choice inside or outside of their own jurisdiction, instead of being saddled with a failing school or being held hostage to the whims or restrictions of the school board that serves their area.

We're not going to agree, so no need to belabor the issue. I want parents to rule through choice and you want unions and the politicians they support to rule.

 

[minnie616]

2000 is a long time ago, and it all depends on the wording of the referendum. People in California also voted against gay marriage, but I'm sure you're not too interested in following the majority rule in that matter.

What you continue to fail to acknowledge is that vouchers are not just to fund private schools - they can also be used to allow children to attend the public school of their choice inside or outside of their own jurisdiction, instead of being saddled with a failing school or being held hostage to the whims or restrictions of the school board that serves their area.

We're not going to agree, so no need to belabor the issue. I want parents to rule through choice and you want unions and the politicians they support to rule.

Most districts allow the choice of which public school to attend when space is available.
Also many districts allow out of district if space is avaible and transportation arranged and paid for by the parent.

As I said Public schools need the tax money to teach the disabled in their district. They have no choice on which students they can accept or reject.



A little info on the rights of children with disabilities.

To protect the rights of children with disabilities. IDEA ensures students with disabilities have access to a free and appropriate public education (FAPE), just like all other children. Schools are required to provide special education in the least restrictive environment. That means schools must teach students with disabilities in general education classroom whenever possible.
To give parents a voice in their child’s education. Under IDEA, you have a say in the educational decisions the school makes about your child. At every point of the process, the law gives you specific rights and protections. These are called procedural safeguards.

https://www.understood.org/en/schoo...s-rights/how-idea-protects-you-and-your-child

 

[CanadaJohn]

Most districts allow the choice of which public school to attend when space is available.
Also many districts allow out of district if space is avaible and transportation arranged and paid for by the parent.

As I said Public schools need the tax money to teach the disabled in their district. They have no choice on which students they can accept or reject.



A little info on the rights of children with disabilities.



https://www.understood.org/en/schoo...s-rights/how-idea-protects-you-and-your-child

Seriously, Minnie, your constant red herrings really show you have no argument. A minute part of the funding that public schools receive goes to educating the disabled - that's just a fact you can't deny. The vast majority of funding goes into the pockets of teachers, and not special education teachers but regular classroom teachers. Those same teachers, through their unions, continue to fund the election of politicians who support them and keep their salaries and benefits on the rise and protect them from the consequences of their incompetence.

There are many ways to get around your concerns about the disabled, but using them as a convenient excuse is much more valuable to you and those who want to perpetuate the rot in the public school systems.

 

[minnie616]

Seriously, Minnie, your constant red herrings really show you have no argument. A minute part of the funding that public schools receive goes to educating the disabled - that's just a fact you can't deny. The vast majority of funding goes into the pockets of teachers, and not special education teachers but regular classroom teachers. Those same teachers, through their unions, continue to fund the election of politicians who support them and keep their salaries and benefits on the rise and protect them from the consequences of their incompetence.

...

Do you not understand how few non public schools there are able to teach and that accept children like my son who had both dyslexia and dysgraphia.
Those schools cost several times the amount of what a years tax per student cost the tax payer.

He needed to take all of his tests orally even in high school because his hand writing/printing was so poor.

He had memorize how to spell every word since he could not hear and distinguish the letters in a word.
He has a higher IQ and a very good memory but has learning disabilities. When he was in the 9th grade his teacher told he was a hard worker and very intelligent and could pursue any career he wanted except English teacher, as long as he had a good assistant to do his hand witting for him.

He graduated with a better than B average and has a college degree.

He is an adult now and when his signs his name on checks it looks like a second grader wrote the signature.

 

[justabubba]

Interesting story, however, not sure how it in any way counters or discounts my position that all families with children should have the ability to direct their child's education funding to the school of their choice. If all children/parents had this option, you'd soon find schools, both public and private, competing for students and that would improve education for all students.

why include private schools? why not simply allow school choice within the public schools system? that way, poor kids would not have to attend the schools set aside for them and the other poor kids. with choice, they could attend the good schools, usually found in the affluent neighborhoods

and because everyone would want to attend the good schools, there would be inadequate desks, so a lottery would have to be conducted for such schools where choices exceeded desks. and those who did not win the lottery would be relegated to attend the poor schools. which would then include kids from the more affluent neighborhoods. and those kids' parents would either pay for private schools from their own resources or send their kids to the weaker schools. hopefully, injecting some interest in improving those schools, now that they have 'skin in the game' relative to their performance. without choice, they do not have reason to support helping the weak schools, because their kids attend the strong ones

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

Um, the point is they are not competing, they are cherry picking. That is NOT competition.

The public schools are not competing. They have no intention of competing. They want to continue telling the parents to go to hell for the sake of the teachers unions.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

let's see where that voucher money is being spent:

State funding church: 93 percent of ‘scholarship program’ vouchers go to religious schools

Those church schools are accredited.

wish a followup story would focus on the student performance of those Christian schools receiving the vast bulk of the public's private school subsidy. Christian schools tend to under-perform public schools, despite not having to teach the special needs students

I know for a fact that you are making that up as you go along. Christian schools significantly outperform most public schools. And the Christian Schools have a much higher graduation rate.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

before i go further, let me clarify
is your education a product of the private catholic school system?

Over K thru 12, I went to public schools and private catholic schools. That's why I know the difference, sport. The private catholic schools were clearly superior.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

Parents aren't choosing, the schools are choosing. That is unfair to those who don't get to choose because they do not meet the school's expectation.

The parent's are choosing under the voucher system. That does not guarantee admission to Sidwell Friends. Geez!

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

Cheap illegal mexican labor is a different issue and I agree thats a big part of the middleclass american problem.
But you inadvertently hit on the reason the koch bros and their like want unions gone. Dirt cheap illegal immigrant labor does them no good if theres unions in the way of paying them slave wages. They must remove the unions to reach thier goal of right to work, which is code for RIGHT TO WORK FOR NOTHING

You liberals are in quite a quandry. You support the fascist labor unions to a hilt, however you want to support illegal immigration as well, for the sake of refilling democrat party voting rolls.. Your problem is that the labor unions are threatened by the cheap labor from illegal immigrants. Attempting to toss it off on the Koch brothers is just hilarious. The big donors who support cheap illegal immigrant labor donate equally to both parties.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

This is clearly a response from someone that has no response, Its ok I get that alot on this issue

I get the impression that you do not get much on the issues.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

Who disagrees with that? I don't have school aged children and I have no problem with part of my taxation going to the education of children. It's one of the few things I think government should fund. Our difference is that you want education funding only to go to the government monopoly that uses some of that funding to elect politicians who fully support that government monopoly. On the other hand, I want parents to have options and not just be saddled with their local school, often providing inferior and incompetent services with little or no accountability.

You are more right on that one then you probably imagine. In my state, up until the 2010 midterms shifted control of the state legislature to republicans for the first time since Ulyssess S Grant was president, the the teacher's union basically hand picked on many occasions who would get elected governor. They had far too much power and monopoly.

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

Most districts allow the choice of which public school to attend when space is available.
Also many districts allow out of district if space is avaible and transportation arranged and paid for by the parent.

As I said Public schools need the tax money to teach the disabled in their district. They have no choice on which students they can accept or reject.





A little info on the rights of children with disabilities.



https://www.understood.org/en/schoo...s-rights/how-idea-protects-you-and-your-child

And those public schools will continue to get public funding based on the number of students enrolled and attending. And they do have the choice to expel students who are simply troublemakers with no desire to learn.

 

[minnie616]

Those church schools are accredited.



I know for a fact that you are making that up as you go along. Christian schools significantly outperform most public schools. And the Christian Schools have a much higher graduation rate.

They are not required by law to teach the learning disabled or emotionally disabled or the extremely poor.

The fact is the public school system is not failing the students.

From Psycology Today

Failing students Not Failing Schools

Research has shown that low-income parents use fewer words with their children on a daily basis, engage in less bidirectional conversation, and expose their children to books and reading far less often compared to middle- and upper-income parents. These differences in early childhood experiences between these groups of children are striking and demonstrate why failing students are the problem. It seems clear enough: schools are failing because they are trying to educate students who are not prepared to learn.

Until we embrace this seemingly obvious fact, we will never find a real solution to our public education problem. We will continue to play a mostly futile game of catch-up. It's quite simple (though not the least bit easy), if we fix the students, we fix much of what is wrong with our public education system.

Read more:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...ducation-failing-students-not-failing-schools

 

[minnie616]

And those public schools will continue to get public funding based on the number of students enrolled and attending. And they do have the choice to expel students who are simply troublemakers with no desire to learn.

Sorry, they will not get funding needed.
You missed that part that the taxes are divided equally amount the number of children , but the learning disabled cost about 7 times or more than the students without learning disabilities.

About 10 to 14 percent of the student population needs help for learning disibilities.
The vast majority of private schools do not offer special staff for learning disibilities.
The few that currently do charge $20,000 or more for day classes grades k-6 grade.

 

[minnie616]

Sorry, they will not get funding needed.
You missed that part that the taxes are divided equally amount the number of children , but the learning disabled cost about 7 times or more than the students without learning disabilities.
....

Correction I said 7 times the amount.
I did more research and it is actually about 2 to more than 3 times of public schools funding depending on the type and severity of the learning disabilities.

Jun 19, 2010 - In 2009, the cost per student was $58,877, more than triple the citywide average of $17,696. .... organization that works to expand learning opportunities for students with disabilities.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/education/20donovan.html?_r=0

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

The public schools are not competing. They have no intention of competing. They want to continue telling the parents to go to hell for the sake of the teachers unions.

Pure rhetoric.

 

[rabbitcaebannog]

The parent's are choosing under the voucher system. That does not guarantee admission to Sidwell Friends. Geez!

The voucher system (like school choice in public schools) is contingent on whether their is enough room in the school. The biggest difference between those two choices is one can kick out students that they find not meeting the bar and the other will be in trouble for not having those students meet the bar.

 

[maquiscat]

You are not thinking clearly.
Districts can have schools in the district to fit the needs.
We have one school in our district with a handicapped accessible playground for example.

Shouldn't they ALL be handicapped accessible per ADA?

There are very few private schools who will take students with disabilities because teaching them very expensive and most families could not afford the cost even with the help of the amount of taxes they pay into public eduction.

Then there is the problem of transportation.

Since most private schools are charging a tuition lower than the cost per student at public schools, I don't see how a voucher for that cost would mean parents couldn't afford the private school tuition. That is before accounting for the concept that most proposed voucher systems allow the parent to choose a different public school. Additionally, doesn't the ADA also apply to private schools as far as not allowed to turn away for disabilities?

 

[maquiscat]

let's see where that voucher money is being spent:

State funding church: 93 percent of ‘scholarship program’ vouchers go to religious schools

wish a followup story would focus on the student performance of those Christian schools receiving the vast bulk of the public's private school subsidy. Christian schools tend to under-perform public schools, despite not having to teach the special needs students

Since the state does not choose or regulate which religious, Christian or otherwise, school, this is not a violation of the separation of church and state. There is no requirement to use the vouchers for religious schools, nor to use them for secular schools. The parents decide. IF the government decided then it would be a problem.

 

[minnie616]

Shouldn't they ALL be handicapped accessible per ADA?



Since most private schools are charging a tuition lower than the cost per student at public schools, I don't see how a voucher for that cost would mean parents couldn't afford the private school tuition. That is before accounting for the concept that most proposed voucher systems allow the parent to choose a different public school. Additionally, doesn't the ADA also apply to private schools as far as not allowed to turn away for disabilities?

There are many schools who are grandfathered in and do not meet ADA.

The new Department of Justice’s 2010 Standards for Accessible Design trigger access if one is building a new playground or making an alteration to an existing playground. In both cases, the playgrounds need to provide a primary means of access.

Here is the “real” consideration: If there is an existing playground and no alterations are planned, the question becomes “Are there any barriers to participation by people with disabilities?”

Can a person with a disability gain entry into the playground by an accessible route?

The playgrounds only need to be accessible under ADA . The equipment does not need to beaccessible to all. Meaning a child with CP who is in a wheelchair may be able to wheel onto the playground area, but cannot go on the swing since the swings do not have seats with backs and straps to hold them safely in.

Where do you live that private schools other those run by and paid in part by churches charge less per student than public schools?

 

[maquiscat]

Seriously, Minnie, your constant red herrings really show you have no argument. A minute part of the funding that public schools receive goes to educating the disabled - that's just a fact you can't deny. The vast majority of funding goes into the pockets of teachers, and not special education teachers but regular classroom teachers. Those same teachers, through their unions, continue to fund the election of politicians who support them and keep their salaries and benefits on the rise and protect them from the consequences of their incompetence.

There are many ways to get around your concerns about the disabled, but using them as a convenient excuse is much more valuable to you and those who want to perpetuate the rot in the public school systems.

While I have been supporting your overall point here, I have to argue this point. The majority of the money is either going into the administration and union pockets, or if to the teachers, so spread out as to make their pay a joke compared to most private individual's pay yet alone other union jobs.

 

[maquiscat]

Those church schools are accredited.



I know for a fact that you are making that up as you go along. Christian schools significantly outperform most public schools. And the Christian Schools have a much higher graduation rate.

Not just Christian schools, but private schools in general, and home schooling averages higher than both.

 

[maquiscat]

Sorry, they will not get funding needed.
You missed that part that the taxes are divided equally amount the number of children , but the learning disabled cost about 7 times or more than the students without learning disabilities.

So given this figure either handicapped students are getting short changed in the public schools, or funds have to be taken from other students to cover their costs. Unless you have something to show that schools with the handicapped get more per handicapped student.