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Country over Partisan Politics

calamity

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When Nixon was caught, both parties forced him to resign. I do not see that kind of bipartisan effort moving forward today, no matter what we learn about all the illegal things Trump has done. And, if by some weird twist he is shown to somehow be innocent, the story would stay the same. Partisanship will still reign the day.

At what point should we, the people, put aside partisan politics and just do what is right for the country?
 

apdst

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When Nixon was caught, both parties forced him to resign. I do not see that kind of bipartisan effort moving forward today, no matter what we learn about all the illegal things Trump has done. And, if by some weird twist he is shown to somehow be innocent, the story would stay the same. Partisanship will still reign the day.

At what point should we, the people, put aside partisan politics and just do what is right for the country?

You're putting paetisanship ahead of country, so the irony is over flowing in this thread, already. :lamo
 

Perotista

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When Nixon was caught, both parties forced him to resign. I do not see that kind of bipartisan effort moving forward today, no matter what we learn about all the illegal things Trump has done. And, if by some weird twist he is shown to somehow be innocent, the story would stay the same. Partisanship will still reign the day.

At what point should we, the people, put aside partisan politics and just do what is right for the country?

We really don't know if Trump has done anything illegal. It is all assumptions. We know most Democrats hate the heck out of Trump and want him destroyed. That they have been trying to do this since the day after the election. We also know most Republicans love him. Your reference to Nixon, half of all Republicans thought he was railroaded out of office back in 1974. In 1974 Republicans only had 42 senators while the Democrats had 58. The Democrats held a 243-192 advantage in the house. Impeachment was a sure thing in the House, all it took was the defection of 9 Republican senators to vote guilty to reach the magic number of 67. Much easier to reach the 2/3rd number needed in the senate. Today it would require 20 GOP senate defections instead of 9. Even in 1974 I doubt back then the Democrats could have got 20 Republican senators to desert Nixon.

Also back in 1974, both political parties had their liberal and conservative wings. There wasn't the stark left/right or liberal/conservative divisions as today. The Republicans were big in the Northeast, the liberal Rockefeller Republicans, the Democrats had their solid conservative south. Straight party line votes never happened back then. There wasn't a huge cry for impeachment coming from the Democrats either right up to the day Nixon resigned. I think most Americans knew impeachment was a real possibility, but no huge outcry.

With both major political parties in armed camps over Trump, it might be a good idea to find out what independents think. After all they now make up 40-43% of the electorate today depending on the poll. Party breakdown is also different today than in 1974. In 1974 Democrats made up 44% of the electorate to the Republicans 24% with 31% being independents.

Trends in Party Identification, 1939-2014 | Pew Research Center

today it is 31% Democrats, 28% Republicans and 39% independents. The Democrats held a huge 20 point advantage over Republicans in 1974 vs. only 3 points today. Today it is a much more even fight both in numbers of party affiliation and in the senate where the trial would take place. Different make up of the political parties also. Both have become much more ideological and yes, highly more partisan.

But what do independents think of Mueller's investigation that the democrats put so much stock in? Question 21, Witch hunt or legitimate investigation. Do you think the FBI investigation of President Trump is a witch hunt or a legitimate investigation?

39% of independents state legit, 36% say witch hunt. Fairly even split. 24% answer not sure, undecided or just don't care.

You also have the very partisan numbers on job approval of Trump also. 8% of Democrats approve, 88% disapprove. With republicans it's 86% approve, 10% disapprove. Is approval of Trump and whether the Mueller investigation is legit or a witch hunt, purely, 100% partisan? Look at independents, 41% approve of Trump, 46% disapprove. Question 50 Trump Job Approval. Do you approve or disapprove of the way Donald Trump is handling his job as President? Again an almost fairly even split among the less to non-partisan, the non-affiliated.

It seems to me that this whole thing is partisanship driven. Opinion of trump is partisan based, witch hunt or legit, partisan based. Impeachment, partisan based. Heck, in today's political environment, everything is partisan based. Neither party puts country first, let's be honest about that.

Whether or not Trump committed a crime, an impeachable crime, we have to wait on Mueller's final report to be sure one way or the other. For impeachment to work, you have to have a good sized majority of independents for it. Especially in today's ultra high partisan political environment. If impeachment looks like a partisan political vendetta against Trump without hard proof that convinces independents of his guilt. Impeachment could make trump look like the victim, provoke sympathy for him, backfire big time on the democrats. Beware what you ask for, you might get it. Especially if independents aren't on board.
 

Mycroft

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When Nixon was caught, both parties forced him to resign. I do not see that kind of bipartisan effort moving forward today, no matter what we learn about all the illegal things Trump has done. And, if by some weird twist he is shown to somehow be innocent, the story would stay the same. Partisanship will still reign the day.

At what point should we, the people, put aside partisan politics and just do what is right for the country?

In one breath, you mention "all the illegal things Trump has done". In the next, you admit the possibility that "he is shown to somehow be innocent".

Looks to me like you are suffering from your own conflicted, illogical partisanship.
 

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We really don't know if Trump has done anything illegal. It is all assumptions. We know most Democrats hate the heck out of Trump and want him destroyed. That they have been trying to do this since the day after the election. We also know most Republicans love him. Your reference to Nixon, half of all Republicans thought he was railroaded out of office back in 1974. In 1974 Republicans only had 42 senators while the Democrats had 58. The Democrats held a 243-192 advantage in the house. Impeachment was a sure thing in the House, all it took was the defection of 9 Republican senators to vote guilty to reach the magic number of 67. Much easier to reach the 2/3rd number needed in the senate. Today it would require 20 GOP senate defections instead of 9. Even in 1974 I doubt back then the Democrats could have got 20 Republican senators to desert Nixon.

Also back in 1974, both political parties had their liberal and conservative wings. There wasn't the stark left/right or liberal/conservative divisions as today. The Republicans were big in the Northeast, the liberal Rockefeller Republicans, the Democrats had their solid conservative south. Straight party line votes never happened back then. There wasn't a huge cry for impeachment coming from the Democrats either right up to the day Nixon resigned. I think most Americans knew impeachment was a real possibility, but no huge outcry.

With both major political parties in armed camps over Trump, it might be a good idea to find out what independents think. After all they now make up 40-43% of the electorate today depending on the poll. Party breakdown is also different today than in 1974. In 1974 Democrats made up 44% of the electorate to the Republicans 24% with 31% being independents.

Trends in Party Identification, 1939-2014 | Pew Research Center

today it is 31% Democrats, 28% Republicans and 39% independents. The Democrats held a huge 20 point advantage over Republicans in 1974 vs. only 3 points today. Today it is a much more even fight both in numbers of party affiliation and in the senate where the trial would take place. Different make up of the political parties also. Both have become much more ideological and yes, highly more partisan.

But what do independents think of Mueller's investigation that the democrats put so much stock in? Question 21, Witch hunt or legitimate investigation. Do you think the FBI investigation of President Trump is a witch hunt or a legitimate investigation?

39% of independents state legit, 36% say witch hunt. Fairly even split. 24% answer not sure, undecided or just don't care.

You also have the very partisan numbers on job approval of Trump also. 8% of Democrats approve, 88% disapprove. With republicans it's 86% approve, 10% disapprove. Is approval of Trump and whether the Mueller investigation is legit or a witch hunt, purely, 100% partisan? Look at independents, 41% approve of Trump, 46% disapprove. Question 50 Trump Job Approval. Do you approve or disapprove of the way Donald Trump is handling his job as President? Again an almost fairly even split among the less to non-partisan, the non-affiliated.

It seems to me that this whole thing is partisanship driven. Opinion of trump is partisan based, witch hunt or legit, partisan based. Impeachment, partisan based. Heck, in today's political environment, everything is partisan based. Neither party puts country first, let's be honest about that.

Whether or not Trump committed a crime, an impeachable crime, we have to wait on Mueller's final report to be sure one way or the other. For impeachment to work, you have to have a good sized majority of independents for it. Especially in today's ultra high partisan political environment. If impeachment looks like a partisan political vendetta against Trump without hard proof that convinces independents of his guilt. Impeachment could make trump look like the victim, provoke sympathy for him, backfire big time on the democrats. Beware what you ask for, you might get it. Especially if independents aren't on board.

One fine analysis, as always.
May I add...
Clinton Democrats play a huge role in this. They had their eyes set on the prize, it being another Clinton in the WH, and a woman at that.
This division is observed world wide. Many deals that could benefit the American citizens are not being made, simply because all the key players are waiting this out, awaiting the results of the investigation. That I blame Democrats for.
 

Taylor

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When Nixon was caught, both parties forced him to resign. I do not see that kind of bipartisan effort moving forward today, no matter what we learn about all the illegal things Trump has done. And, if by some weird twist he is shown to somehow be innocent, the story would stay the same. Partisanship will still reign the day.

At what point should we, the people, put aside partisan politics and just do what is right for the country?
I saw the thread title, then I saw who created it. I thought, "maybe he's going to turn over a new leaf."

Alas...
 

Perotista

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One fine analysis, as always.
May I add...
Clinton Democrats play a huge role in this. They had their eyes set on the prize, it being another Clinton in the WH, and a woman at that.
This division is observed world wide. Many deals that could benefit the American citizens are not being made, simply because all the key players are waiting this out, awaiting the results of the investigation. That I blame Democrats for.

The one thing I'll never be able to figure out is why Hillary ran in the first if she wasn't willing to work at getting elected. She was lazy. She let Trump both out work and out campaign her by a huge number. 116 campaign visits/stops for Trump between 1 Sep 2016 through 8 Nov 2016 to Hillary's 71. That's a huge 45 more Campaign visits/stops for Trump. This difference was stark in Wisconsin, five visits/stops for Trump, none, zero, for Hillary. Michigan six for Trump, one for Hillary. Did she think she had those two states in the bag? That she could ignore them and have them still vote for her?

Hillary due to her laziness lost the election. Trump didn't win it, Hillary gave it to him. Yet none of Hillary's supporters will ever acknowledge that fact. They'll blame Russia, Comey, Fox News, everything and every one else other than lazy Hillary. Then there was her very inept campaign strategy, the jury rigging of the democratic primaries in her favor among numerous other things that tell me she wasn't serious about running for president.

Good point on the worldwide divisions, not only here, but this whole left/right thing is coming to a head.
 

Moderate Right

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When Nixon was caught, both parties forced him to resign. I do not see that kind of bipartisan effort moving forward today, no matter what we learn about all the illegal things Trump has done. And, if by some weird twist he is shown to somehow be innocent, the story would stay the same. Partisanship will still reign the day.

At what point should we, the people, put aside partisan politics and just do what is right for the country?

We haven't learned about even one illegal thing Trump has done. Do you have any? Why don't YOU put country over partisan politics? You're the one coming up with thousands of anti-Trump troll threads.
 

Moderate Right

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We really don't know if Trump has done anything illegal. It is all assumptions. We know most Democrats hate the heck out of Trump and want him destroyed. That they have been trying to do this since the day after the election. We also know most Republicans love him. Your reference to Nixon, half of all Republicans thought he was railroaded out of office back in 1974. In 1974 Republicans only had 42 senators while the Democrats had 58. The Democrats held a 243-192 advantage in the house. Impeachment was a sure thing in the House, all it took was the defection of 9 Republican senators to vote guilty to reach the magic number of 67. Much easier to reach the 2/3rd number needed in the senate. Today it would require 20 GOP senate defections instead of 9. Even in 1974 I doubt back then the Democrats could have got 20 Republican senators to desert Nixon.

Also back in 1974, both political parties had their liberal and conservative wings. There wasn't the stark left/right or liberal/conservative divisions as today. The Republicans were big in the Northeast, the liberal Rockefeller Republicans, the Democrats had their solid conservative south. Straight party line votes never happened back then. There wasn't a huge cry for impeachment coming from the Democrats either right up to the day Nixon resigned. I think most Americans knew impeachment was a real possibility, but no huge outcry.

With both major political parties in armed camps over Trump, it might be a good idea to find out what independents think. After all they now make up 40-43% of the electorate today depending on the poll. Party breakdown is also different today than in 1974. In 1974 Democrats made up 44% of the electorate to the Republicans 24% with 31% being independents.

Trends in Party Identification, 1939-2014 | Pew Research Center

today it is 31% Democrats, 28% Republicans and 39% independents. The Democrats held a huge 20 point advantage over Republicans in 1974 vs. only 3 points today. Today it is a much more even fight both in numbers of party affiliation and in the senate where the trial would take place. Different make up of the political parties also. Both have become much more ideological and yes, highly more partisan.

But what do independents think of Mueller's investigation that the democrats put so much stock in? Question 21, Witch hunt or legitimate investigation. Do you think the FBI investigation of President Trump is a witch hunt or a legitimate investigation?

39% of independents state legit, 36% say witch hunt. Fairly even split. 24% answer not sure, undecided or just don't care.

You also have the very partisan numbers on job approval of Trump also. 8% of Democrats approve, 88% disapprove. With republicans it's 86% approve, 10% disapprove. Is approval of Trump and whether the Mueller investigation is legit or a witch hunt, purely, 100% partisan? Look at independents, 41% approve of Trump, 46% disapprove. Question 50 Trump Job Approval. Do you approve or disapprove of the way Donald Trump is handling his job as President? Again an almost fairly even split among the less to non-partisan, the non-affiliated.

It seems to me that this whole thing is partisanship driven. Opinion of trump is partisan based, witch hunt or legit, partisan based. Impeachment, partisan based. Heck, in today's political environment, everything is partisan based. Neither party puts country first, let's be honest about that.

Whether or not Trump committed a crime, an impeachable crime, we have to wait on Mueller's final report to be sure one way or the other. For impeachment to work, you have to have a good sized majority of independents for it. Especially in today's ultra high partisan political environment. If impeachment looks like a partisan political vendetta against Trump without hard proof that convinces independents of his guilt. Impeachment could make trump look like the victim, provoke sympathy for him, backfire big time on the democrats. Beware what you ask for, you might get it. Especially if independents aren't on board.

I don't think any of that will register with Calamity. He's about as partisan as you can get. His political acumen doesn't get much farther than, "Me hate Trump".
 

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The one thing I'll never be able to figure out is why Hillary ran in the first if she wasn't willing to work at getting elected. She was lazy. She let Trump both out work and out campaign her by a huge number. 116 campaign visits/stops for Trump between 1 Sep 2016 through 8 Nov 2016 to Hillary's 71. That's a huge 45 more Campaign visits/stops for Trump. This difference was stark in Wisconsin, five visits/stops for Trump, none, zero, for Hillary. Michigan six for Trump, one for Hillary. Did she think she had those two states in the bag? That she could ignore them and have them still vote for her?

Hillary due to her laziness lost the election. Trump didn't win it, Hillary gave it to him. Yet none of Hillary's supporters will ever acknowledge that fact. They'll blame Russia, Comey, Fox News, everything and every one else other than lazy Hillary. Then there was her very inept campaign strategy, the jury rigging of the democratic primaries in her favor among numerous other things that tell me she wasn't serious about running for president.

Good point on the worldwide divisions, not only here, but this whole left/right thing is coming to a head.

There was no reason to work hard. The election was in the bag for Hillary. There was no way she could lose. And, it was her turn. She was the anointed one. All she had to do was sit back and watch the Donald make a fool out of himself. Ironically, that is kind of why Senior Bush lost to Bill Clinton, Geoge H sat back and laughed while Bill Clinton was stumping for votes playing the sax on MTV for God's sake. That's not how you win elections.
 

Mycroft

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The one thing I'll never be able to figure out is why Hillary ran in the first if she wasn't willing to work at getting elected. She was lazy. She let Trump both out work and out campaign her by a huge number. 116 campaign visits/stops for Trump between 1 Sep 2016 through 8 Nov 2016 to Hillary's 71. That's a huge 45 more Campaign visits/stops for Trump. This difference was stark in Wisconsin, five visits/stops for Trump, none, zero, for Hillary. Michigan six for Trump, one for Hillary. Did she think she had those two states in the bag? That she could ignore them and have them still vote for her?

Hillary due to her laziness lost the election. Trump didn't win it, Hillary gave it to him. Yet none of Hillary's supporters will ever acknowledge that fact. They'll blame Russia, Comey, Fox News, everything and every one else other than lazy Hillary. Then there was her very inept campaign strategy, the jury rigging of the democratic primaries in her favor among numerous other things that tell me she wasn't serious about running for president.

Good point on the worldwide divisions, not only here, but this whole left/right thing is coming to a head.

I'm not so sure it was laziness. I think it was health related.
 

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There was no reason to work hard. The election was in the bag for Hillary. There was no way she could lose. And, it was her turn. She was the anointed one. All she had to do was sit back and watch the Donald make a fool out of himself. Ironically, that is kind of why Senior Bush lost to Bill Clinton, Geoge H sat back and laughed while Bill Clinton was stumping for votes playing the sax on MTV for God's sake. That's not how you win elections.

Outside of Nate Silver who gave Trump a 30% chance of winning over Hillary, I don't remember any other political pundit that gave Trump a chance. When it came to G.H.W. Bush, I had the impression that he didn't care if he won or lost until about two weeks prior to the election. Then it was way too late to get serious and beginning working at winning. The first Bush and Hillary Clinton ran two of the most inept campaigns I have ever seen.
 

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I'm not so sure it was laziness. I think it was health related.

I also wondered if her lack of energy, campaigning like she should have wasn't health related. She did run one of the most ho hum campaigns I ever seen.
 

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When Nixon was caught, both parties forced him to resign. I do not see that kind of bipartisan effort moving forward today, no matter what we learn about all the illegal things Trump has done. And, if by some weird twist he is shown to somehow be innocent, the story would stay the same. Partisanship will still reign the day.

At what point should we, the people, put aside partisan politics and just do what is right for the country?

Actually I will believe anything that Mueller comes up with. If innocent, so be it. If guilty of wrong doing, the House and the Senate will decide the punishment. Mueller is an honorable man who I believe will give us the truth, whether everyone else wants to believe something different. I think that even the lack of leaks shows how much he wants to go after the guilty ans protect the innocent.
 

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I also wondered if her lack of energy, campaigning like she should have wasn't health related. She did run one of the most ho hum campaigns I ever seen.

I think that the Dem party and Bernie did a lot to constrain her campaign. She had to satisfy both ends of her party. I think that Bernie Sanders and his group did more to lose the election for Hillary than either Trump or the Russians. Instead of never Trump, it was never Hillary as they believed she cheated Bernie out of being the Dem candidate for President.
 

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Outside of Nate Silver who gave Trump a 30% chance of winning over Hillary, I don't remember any other political pundit that gave Trump a chance. When it came to G.H.W. Bush, I had the impression that he didn't care if he won or lost until about two weeks prior to the election. Then it was way too late to get serious and beginning working at winning. The first Bush and Hillary Clinton ran two of the most inept campaigns I have ever seen.

Yeah. I never really believed that the read my lips pledge thing was something he could not overcome. This may have been the birthplace of voters coming to the conclusion that they were sick and tired of the same ole politics as usual. Bill Clinton ran a campaign getting in touch with the people right down to playing his sax on MTV while George H looked on at all of this laughing that this guy with a bunch of charisma just didn't know anything about running a political campaign. Bush seemed to believe right up to the end that voters would dismiss all of that nonsense and he would be the ultimate victor.
 

calamity

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You're putting paetisanship ahead of country, so the irony is over flowing in this thread, already. :lamo

Not surprisingly, you obviously only read what you wanted to.
 

apdst

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Not surprisingly, you obviously only read what you wanted to.

I read your entire anti-tard meltdown. Your poutrage has nothing to do with law and order, anf everything to do with hating President Trump.
 

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I think that the Dem party and Bernie did a lot to constrain her campaign. She had to satisfy both ends of her party. I think that Bernie Sanders and his group did more to lose the election for Hillary than either Trump or the Russians. Instead of never Trump, it was never Hillary as they believed she cheated Bernie out of being the Dem candidate for President.

Yep, the jury rigged primaries in Hillary's favor certainly didn't help. That indeed made Sanders supporters very angry at her. According to Newsweek, Sanders supporters broke down 73% for Clinton, 12% for Trump, 15% third party. How many Sanders supporters stayed home and refused to vote is unknown. But compare those figures to Hillary's Democratic base numbers, 89% Hillary, 8% Trump, 3% third party. Did Sanders supporters cost Hillary the election, Newsweek certainly thinks so. BERNIE SANDERS VOTERS HELPED TRUMP WIN AND HERE'S PROOF:

https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-trump-2016-election-654320

Whether it was Sanders, walking a fine line between the establishment Democrats and the ultra progressives, health reasons, she certainly came across as lacking energy. The number of campaign appearances and events shows a huge disparity between her and Trump. But what really struck me was the lack of energy on Hillary's part and that of her supporters. Trump exuded energy and enthusiasm which rubbed off on his supporters. His supporters were willing to go to the four corners of the earth for him. I was left with a feeling most of Clinton supporters wouldn't walk across the street for her.

In the end it was independents that put Trump in the White House going for him 46-42 over Hillary. It's not that independents like either one, 12% of independents voted third party whether than choose between those two. Then you could look at the number of independents who were upset that Hillary was the Democratic nominee, 57% vs. 43% of independents upset that Trump was the GOP nominee. Questions 18 and 19. Also 57% of independents had a very unfavorable view of Hillary vs. 46% for Trump. Questions 10 and 11.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/l37rosbwjp/econTabReport_lv.pdf

As I stated in the past, it wasn't like the Democrats didn't have advance warning about nominating Hillary. back in February of 2016 a poll showed 56% of all Americans wanted the Democrats to nominate someone else other than Hillary. They didn't and we now have Trump. Perhaps the democrats ought to consider someone that can appeal to independents in 2020. After all, independents now make up 40-43% of the total electorate today.
 

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Yeah. I never really believed that the read my lips pledge thing was something he could not overcome. This may have been the birthplace of voters coming to the conclusion that they were sick and tired of the same ole politics as usual. Bill Clinton ran a campaign getting in touch with the people right down to playing his sax on MTV while George H looked on at all of this laughing that this guy with a bunch of charisma just didn't know anything about running a political campaign. Bush seemed to believe right up to the end that voters would dismiss all of that nonsense and he would be the ultimate victor.

Bush sure did. Bill Clinton was likable and could connect with the people like no other president or candidate than Ronald Reagan and FDR. Except for extreme partisans, people believed them. there was a natural connection between those three and most Americans. Charisma might be the best word to describe it. But I think there is a lot more to it.
 

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The one thing I'll never be able to figure out is why Hillary ran in the first if she wasn't willing to work at getting elected. She was lazy. She let Trump both out work and out campaign her by a huge number. 116 campaign visits/stops for Trump between 1 Sep 2016 through 8 Nov 2016 to Hillary's 71. That's a huge 45 more Campaign visits/stops for Trump. This difference was stark in Wisconsin, five visits/stops for Trump, none, zero, for Hillary. Michigan six for Trump, one for Hillary. Did she think she had those two states in the bag? That she could ignore them and have them still vote for her?

Hillary due to her laziness lost the election. Trump didn't win it, Hillary gave it to him. Yet none of Hillary's supporters will ever acknowledge that fact. They'll blame Russia, Comey, Fox News, everything and every one else other than lazy Hillary. Then there was her very inept campaign strategy, the jury rigging of the democratic primaries in her favor among numerous other things that tell me she wasn't serious about running for president.

Good point on the worldwide divisions, not only here, but this whole left/right thing is coming to a head.

Hillary wasn't lazy. My guess is that, after she was made to/ handed the nomination to Obama, she was promised a "next time it is yours". She, as many, if not most, thought she would win hands down. That is why she hardly tried. Heck, I didn't stay up that evening, being certain that she would win the presidency. I am still in shock. What put it over the rim for Trump is, although it would have been a landslide for anyone else opposing Trump, the fact that no one counted on the person Hillary. Even a paper weight has more charisma and is more sincere. Heck, even Trump seems more real than that one.
 

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Hillary wasn't lazy. My guess is that, after she was made to/ handed the nomination to Obama, she was promised a "next time it is yours".

Yeah, it's not like a black person could win honest. Someone gave it to him. That's not racist, right?
 

Lovebug

Let go and let God
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