Controversy over the AP history curriculum for the Common Core

[sangha]

Well, they do call it common core. What is your definition of common core, a non-specific set of variables dependent upon individual interpretation?

My definition of CC is a framework that can be used to develop a curriculum.

Do you understand the difference between a framework and a curriculum?

 

[ocean515]

I don't know. Why are you posting hyperbole?

I was just searching for some common ground.

 

[sangha]

Now it's common ground?

Yes, the six standards are what they have in common.

So a brief outline of standards on the common core initiative website is actually just common standards. So where does one go to find the core, which is common?

The core is the six standards, which is what they all have in common.

Is english your first or second language?

 

[sangha]

I was just searching for some common ground.

With talk about a blue dress?

Sounds more like trolling

But since you're looking for common ground, why won't you answer my question?

Do you think the curriculum should be a "one size fits all" solution that all schools are required to follow in detail, or do you think schools, district or states should make those decisions for themselves?

 

[ocean515]

For the uninitiated....

Curriculum: More specific, but doesn't inherently determine exactly what a given teacher will teach.

Framework for curriculum: Less specific than curriculum.

Content Standards: Less specific than the framework for curriculum.

Framework for content standards: less specific than the content standards.

Geeze, it's a wonder they have any time to teach the students, with all that construction going on.

 

[Fiddytree]

Geeze, it's a wonder they have any time to teach the students, with all that construction going on.

If you think this work is being done by teachers directly employed in a classroom, you would be way off.

 

[ocean515]

My definition of CC is a framework that can be used to develop a curriculum.

Do you understand the difference between a framework and a curriculum?

I do now, Fiddytree laid out the vastness of it.

By the way, since CC is apparently just a framework, what do you think they were thinking of when they put in the "CORE" in Common Core? If it's a set of standards to be used to prepare students for the global marketplace, wouldn't a framework be a bit lacking in specifics from which to measure the success of the effort?

 

[sangha]

Geeze, it's a wonder they have any time to teach the students, with all that construction going on.

The AP doesn't teach students, so developing this framework didn't take any of their time away from teaching students.

 

[sangha]

I do now, Fiddytree laid out the vastness of it.

By the way, since CC is apparently just a framework, what do you think they were thinking of when they put in the "CORE" in Common Core?

Again, the six standards are the common core.

Why don't you ask the same question a few more times?

If it's a set of standards to be used to prepare students for the global marketplace, wouldn't a framework be a bit lacking in specifics from which to measure the success of the effort?

No, but this thread isn't about CC

Do you think the curriculum should be a "one size fits all" solution that all schools are required to follow in detail, or do you think schools, district or states should make those decisions for themselves?

 

[ocean515]

With talk about a blue dress?

Sounds more like trolling

But since you're looking for common ground, why won't you answer my question?

Do you think the curriculum should be a "one size fits all" solution that all schools are required to follow in detail, or do you think schools, district or states should make those decisions for themselves?

The blue dress was just a reference to the mistake of suggesting a lack of evidence doesn't mean nothing is there. Perhaps you should dial it back a notch or two.

As to your other point. I think the Federal Government should be out of education altogether and leave teaching to the states and local governments. Common Core is a joke. All Feds have done is screw up public education across the country. Am I to assume you agree?

 

[Fiddytree]

“Sure, one could build good stuff on this framework,” he wrote, “But one could also build trash. Or nothing.”

That's with any group venture.

If Person A has a job description, and largely (or completely) fulfills their duty, and then passes it off to Person B to do their job. Now, Person B can take what Person A did and somehow screw it up. The mere presence of that possibility does not then mean that Person A is the source of concern.

 

[ocean515]

The AP doesn't teach students, so developing this framework didn't take any of their time away from teaching students.

Well according to Fiddy, there's about 4 or 5 layers of effort before a teacher says "class, open your books". Unless I'm mistaken, those layers are full of people being paid to be the layers. Imagine if all that time, effort, and money were put directly in the classroom.

 

[Fiddytree]

Well according to Fiddy, there's about 4 or 5 layers of effort before a teacher says "class, open your books". Unless I'm mistaken, those layers are full of people being paid to be the layers. Imagine if all that time, effort, and money were put directly in the classroom.

There's plenty more layers than that. However, under your notion, the impact would be that you would have teachers attempting to reinvent the wheel.

 

[sangha]

The blue dress was just a reference to the mistake of suggesting a lack of evidence doesn't mean nothing is there. Perhaps you should dial it back a notch or two.

As to your other point. I think the Federal Government should be out of education altogether and leave teaching to the states and local governments. Common Core is a joke. All Feds have done is screw up public education across the country. Am I to assume you agree?

Umm, the AP is not the federal govt and I didn't ask about the federal govt

Do you think the curriculum should be a "one size fits all" solution that all schools are required to follow in detail, or do you think schools, district or states should make those decisions for themselves?

 

[ocean515]

Again, the six standards are the common core.

Why don't you ask the same question a few more times?



No, but this thread isn't about CC

Do you think the curriculum should be a "one size fits all" solution that all schools are required to follow in detail, or do you think schools, district or states should make those decisions for themselves?

You keep giving different answers, and since it appears you are an expert on the subject, I was just seeking clarification.

The one size fits all the Feds are pushing is a joke. But I've answered that in another post.

 

[sangha]

Well according to Fiddy, there's about 4 or 5 layers of effort before a teacher says "class, open your books". Unless I'm mistaken, those layers are full of people being paid to be the layers. Imagine if all that time, effort, and money were put directly in the classroom.

The AP is a private company. It's not a part of the public education system. If they didn't make this framework, they wouldn't use that time to teach kids in the classroom

 

[ocean515]

That's with any group venture.

If Person A has a job description, and largely (or completely) fulfills their duty, and then passes it off to Person B to do their job. Now, Person B can take what Person A did and somehow screw it up. The mere presence of that possibility does not then mean that Person A is the source of concern.

It also doesn't mean a process that requires A and B shouldn't be a concern.

 

[sangha]

You keep giving different answers, and since it appears you are an expert on the subject, I was just seeking clarification.

Every time you asked, I gave you the same answer

The one size fits all the Feds are pushing is a joke. But I've answered that in another post.

I didn't ask about the federal govt

Do you think the curriculum should be a "one size fits all" solution that all schools are required to follow in detail, or do you think schools, district or states should make those decisions for themselves?

 

[ocean515]

There's plenty more layers than that. However, under your notion, the impact would be that you would have teachers attempting to reinvent the wheel.

I don't know how you could reach that conclusion when it appears the new wheel making may be taking place long before the teacher gets their hands on it. If it were left to the states all that revenue would be spent where it should be, rather than in the halls of the layer people.

 

[Fiddytree]

It also doesn't mean a process that requires A and B shouldn't be a concern.

If Person A fulfills their job description any subsequent error while product is in Person B's hands does not indict Person A, but rather Person B.

That's why this "controversy" seems so stupid. You have a guy saying, "oh it could be great or it could be bad afterwards." Here's what that means. The College Board's AP curriculum framework team did their job just fine. It's up to the folks elsewhere to do their jobs fine. In that case, people are very much becoming anxious over completely expected and desired results.

 

[Dittohead not!]

You keep giving different answers, and since it appears you are an expert on the subject, I was just seeking clarification.

The one size fits all the Feds are pushing is a joke. But I've answered that in another post.

One of the points of this thread is that the feds are not pushing one size fits all. Curriculum development is a function of the states and the districts, mostly the former. The federal Department of Education has developed a framework from which the states can develop their own curriculum.

 

[Fiddytree]

I don't know how you could reach that conclusion when it appears the new wheel making may be taking place long before the teacher gets their hands on it. If it were left to the states all that revenue would be spent where it should be, rather than in the halls of the layer people.

Without those layers, you are asking for teachers to do the work ordinarily asked by other state employees and other national boards. They would have little expertise at it nor would they have the institutional knowledge to do it.

 

[sangha]

I don't know how you could reach that conclusion when it appears the new wheel making may be taking place long before the teacher gets their hands on it. If it were left to the states all that revenue would be spent where it should be, rather than in the halls of the layer people.

So how should the curriculum be determined and who should do it?

 

[sangha]

One of the points of this thread is that the feds are not pushing one size fits all. Curriculum development is a function of the states and the districts, mostly the former. The federal Department of Education has developed a framework from which the states can develop their own curriculum.

Actually, it's the College Board who developed this framework. They are a non-profit org

 

[Dittohead not!]

Actually, it's the College Board who developed this framework. They are a non-profit org

Oh. Really?

I thought the Department of Education had developed them. Are they just promoting the idea then?