Conservatives out of line on mideast unrest.

[sharon]

If this is true, then what you imply is that he instructed his administration from the UN Ambassador to his Press secretary to lie to the American people.

Which is it? Out of touch or swindling the American people?

Obama knew that two things were happening.. and I never heard him "lie" about that.

They knew there were AQ friendly militias in Derna, Marsa Brega and Benghazi, but the video and resulting demonstrations took them by surprise.

The video was distributed in the ME on Sept 6th.

 

[Helix]

I like these boards because I continually test what I really believe.

same here; i completely agree. my own views have evolved significantly in the past ten to fifteen years, also, and debate / research have been the main reasons. i partially credit my area of study; in science, the hypothesis is modified in light of the data. i find that too often, many simply choose to ignore or discredit data that doesn't support their hypothesis. i'm still not perfect in this area myself, but i'm working on it.

 

[code1211]

Disagree. The WH and the State Department aren't fools. They have a pretty good idea what is going on. But the "reality" that Obama is focused on and in touch with is getting re-elected. And his positions/statements are going to be adjusted accordingly.

Meaning he is lying to the American people for political expedience?

 

[code1211]

Obama knew that two things were happening.. and I never heard him "lie" about that.

They knew there were AQ friendly militias in Derna, Marsa Brega and Benghazi, but the video and resulting demonstrations took them by surprise.

The video was distributed in the ME on Sept 6th.

I had heard that the trailer for the video was on You Tube since about June. Really, though, it doesn't matter. we're talking about rabid dogs who salivate when they hear the bell.

I think it's funny that the Obama administration will actually force the Catholic Church to renounce it's dogma, but will immediately try to suspend the First Amendment if the Muslims are offended by a commercial.

I suppose that's the difference between being afraid of the Muslims and not being afraid of the Catholics.

I remember a time when United States Policy was based on principles and not on fear.

Those were the days.

 

[sharon]

I had heard that the trailer for the video was on You Tube since about June. Really, though, it doesn't matter. we're talking about rabid dogs who salivate when they hear the bell.

I think it's funny that the Obama administration will actually force the Catholic Church to renounce it's dogma, but will immediately try to suspend the First Amendment if the Muslims are offended by a commercial.

I suppose that's the difference between being afraid of the Muslims and not being afraid of the Catholics.

I remember a time when United States Policy was based on principles and not on fear.

Those were the days.

Renounce what dogma.. The issue was employee health insurance.

 

[code1211]

Renounce what dogma.. The issue was employee health insurance.

Um...

The issue was forcing the Catholic Church to pay for birth control and abortion through the health insurance. This is a violation of it's dogma as it interprets birth control as murder and it is prohibited in that sense by the word of God.

Do you really not understand this?

 

[Rokkitsci]

same here; i completely agree. my own views have evolved significantly in the past ten to fifteen years, also, and debate / research have been the main reasons. i partially credit my area of study; in science, the hypothesis is modified in light of the data. i find that too often, many simply choose to ignore or discredit data that doesn't support their hypothesis. i'm still not perfect in this area myself, but i'm working on it.

Perhaps that is the difference between us and the average 'debater' in politics. I am also scientifically trained and oriented still. I spent 33 years at NASA involved with the space program. I have been part of every manned space program the USA has put into active service, from Project Mercury on up. Of course the Space Station is a lot different than the design in place when I left in 95.

Consequently, I operate with rational logic. I am uninfluenced by dramatic dogma - well, it does make me angry enough to turn off the TV mostly.

Spending three decades with highly dedicated people with an average IQ of about 130 has spoiled me for dealing with the drama queens of current political discourse.

 

[Helix]

Perhaps that is the difference between us and the average 'debater' in politics. I am also scientifically trained and oriented still. I spent 33 years at NASA involved with the space program. I have been part of every manned space program the USA has put into active service, from Project Mercury on up. Of course the Space Station is a lot different than the design in place when I left in 95.

Consequently, I operate with rational logic. I am uninfluenced by dramatic dogma - well, it does make me angry enough to turn off the TV mostly.

Spending three decades with highly dedicated people with an average IQ of about 130 has spoiled me for dealing with the drama queens of current political discourse.

that's quite a career; congrats on a job well done. my own scientific journey has been significantly more terrestrial, but fascinating all the same.

 

[OpportunityCost]

No they didn't... the video shows what happened.. they found him on the floor in the destroyed consulate which was full of smoke.. They were shouting He's alive, God is great.. They carried him to a car and rushed him to BMC which is a huge, modern hospital where he lived 1 1/2 hours.

You should be ashamed.. Its bad enough.. the Ambassador has a wife and children.

And how did he come to be in a burning building? And how did the Spec OPs portion of his team (2 men) die? I guess the video doesnt explain that. The consulate was rushed with direct and indirect fire consisting of small arms and RPGs. If you want to believe that they were not Islamic extremists thats your reality problem, not mine.

 

[sharon]

Um...

The issue was forcing the Catholic Church to pay for birth control and abortion through the health insurance. This is a violation of it's dogma as it interprets birth control as murder and it is prohibited in that sense by the word of God.

Do you really not understand this?

LOLOLOL.. guess you don't know any better.

 

[sharon]

And how did he come to be in a burning building? And how did the Spec OPs portion of his team (2 men) die? I guess the video doesnt explain that. The consulate was rushed with direct and indirect fire consisting of small arms and RPGs. If you want to believe that they were not Islamic extremists thats your reality problem, not mine.

They blew it to smithereens and it caught fire.

One Seal was killed in the front yard.. the other was killed in the safe house (I think).. The Ambassador got separated and tried to get out by going up across the back roof.

The 20 guys in pick up trucks were extremists. What planet are you on?

 

[frogloe]

I had heard that the trailer for the video was on You Tube since about June. Really, though, it doesn't matter. we're talking about rabid dogs who salivate when they hear the bell.

I think it's funny that the Obama administration will actually force the Catholic Church to renounce it's dogma, but will immediately try to suspend the First Amendment if the Muslims are offended by a commercial.

I suppose that's the difference between being afraid of the Muslims and not being afraid of the Catholics.

I remember a time when United States Policy was based on principles and not on fear.

Those were the days.

I remember when people didn't oversimplify and issue.

Those were the days.

Come on! Obama is not trying to suspend the first amendment. I don't know if you know this, but the people in the Middle East really don't understand us that well. As far as the protesters are concerned, the government has been openly endorsing that video. It needs to be known that, while the US advocates free speech, we don't advocate offensive material. We give our people the power to create it and generally allow it, but that does not mean that our government endorses the video. And really we shouldn't. We're not trying to discriminate against Muslims. That would be terrible. The Middle East and America are two completely different cultures, not everything we do is going to translate sensibly to them. The president is dealing with a touchy issue, he's not being spineless. Being a total dick is a really asinine way to go about handling relationships. Not that anything they have done is okay, but there are massive misunderstandings at work, so apologies can be warranted. We're sorry they got offended and we're sorry that a man abused free speech to the point where he could offend a sect of people, but we're not going to be sorry for the fact that we have that free speech. Simple as that. Sorry shouldn't be a taboo word. And we'll never know, but something tells me that, if we had used your route of international relations, there would be a lot more dead people.

 

[sharon]

I remember when people didn't oversimplify and issue.

Those were the days.

Come on! Obama is not trying to suspend the first amendment. I don't know if you know this, but the people in the Middle East really don't understand us that well. As far as the protesters are concerned, the government has been openly endorsing that video. It needs to be known that, while the US advocates free speech, we don't advocate offensive material. We give our people the power to create it and generally allow it, but that does not mean that our government endorses the video. And really we shouldn't. We're not trying to discriminate against Muslims. That would be terrible.

The Middle East and America are two completely different cultures, not everything we do is going to translate sensibly to them. The president is dealing with a touchy issue, he's not being spineless. Being a total dick is a really asinine way to go about handling relationships. Not that anything they have done is okay, but there are massive misunderstandings at work, so apologies can be warranted.

We're sorry they got offended and we're sorry that a man abused free speech to the point where he could offend a sect of people, but we're not going to be sorry for the fact that we have that free speech. Simple as that. Sorry shouldn't be a taboo word. And we'll never know, but something tells me that, if we had used your route of international relations, there would be a lot more dead people.

Excellent post.. You are a rare breath of fresh air..

 

[Fisher]

They blew it to smithereens and it caught fire.

They were already burning classified docs by the time that happened pursuant to standard operating procedure when a Diplomatic facility is at risk. That has been reported. I assume that The Ambassador was overseeing the burn to determine which were the most sensitive to make sure they went first which was why he was not better secured.

 

[code1211]

LOLOLOL.. guess you don't know any better.

Enlighten me.

 

[code1211]

I remember when people didn't oversimplify and issue.

Those were the days.

Come on! Obama is not trying to suspend the first amendment. I don't know if you know this, but the people in the Middle East really don't understand us that well. As far as the protesters are concerned, the government has been openly endorsing that video. It needs to be known that, while the US advocates free speech, we don't advocate offensive material. We give our people the power to create it and generally allow it, but that does not mean that our government endorses the video. And really we shouldn't. We're not trying to discriminate against Muslims. That would be terrible. The Middle East and America are two completely different cultures, not everything we do is going to translate sensibly to them. The president is dealing with a touchy issue, he's not being spineless. Being a total dick is a really asinine way to go about handling relationships. Not that anything they have done is okay, but there are massive misunderstandings at work, so apologies can be warranted. We're sorry they got offended and we're sorry that a man abused free speech to the point where he could offend a sect of people, but we're not going to be sorry for the fact that we have that free speech. Simple as that. Sorry shouldn't be a taboo word. And we'll never know, but something tells me that, if we had used your route of international relations, there would be a lot more dead people.

Perhaps we should place a picture of "the prophet" in a jar of urine next to the image of "the Savior" in a similar jar of urine and place them in a museum as a completed work of art. Shouldn't be much work since the one with the Savior is already there.

 

[frogloe]

Perhaps we should place a picture of "the prophet" in a jar of urine next to the image of "the Savior" in a similar jar of urine and place them in a museum as a completed work of art. Shouldn't be much work since the one with the Savior is already there.

The goal here is to be the bigger man, not the butthurt man.

Because your statement reeks of butthurt.

 

[Dwight]

Are you claiming that American Christians ans Middle eastern Muslims respond to religious affronts in the same way?

Clearly he is stating that that is not the case. Rather, a roughly 3 centuries of Enlightenment has managed to curb a lot of the emotion driven religious excesses of Christianity and drag it, kicking and screaming, out of the 'dark ages' that a good deal of the Islamic world still suffers under. The instinct to revert to chest-thumping, ****-rationality attitude, and drive to grind to dust people that believe in a different version of supernatural myths is still there but we have put together institutions, established societal norms, and gotten enough people out from under the superstitious spell to keep it to a dull roar.

EDIT: Oops, that post was older than I thought. Doh! Sorry, still getting used to the controls format here.

 

[Sherman123]

In general this country both in terms of the public, media, and political class has a terrible literacy and consequently a terrible arena for foreign policy discussion in any serious or complex sense. Though I remain unsure if this is in fact a negative thing.

 

[Rokkitsci]

Clearly he is stating that that is not the case. Rather, a roughly 3 centuries of Enlightenment has managed to curb a lot of the emotion driven religious excesses of Christianity and drag it, kicking and screaming, out of the 'dark ages' that a good deal of the Islamic world still suffers under. The instinct to revert to chest-thumping, ****-rationality attitude, and drive to grind to dust people that believe in a different version of supernatural myths is still there but we have put together institutions, established societal norms, and gotten enough people out from under the superstitious spell to keep it to a dull roar.

EDIT: Oops, that post was older than I thought. Doh! Sorry, still getting used to the controls format here.

good post - well done

 

[sawyerloggingon]

He wasn't "drug out and killed".. He died of smoke inhalation after he was rushed to BMC.

Oh well thats alright then.No big deal.:roll:

 

[CJ 2.0]

I am getting sick of FOX news trying to say the unrest in the Islamic world is due to weakness in Obama's forein policy. How is it the President is responsible for some film maker making an anti Islamic movie?

Mitt Romney looked like a fool by jumping on Obama before he had all the facts and the lapdogs on FOX look like morons when they try to say the President is always apoligizing for the Bush years. Are they thin skinned or what? What is wrong with saying you are sorry in the first place. I used to say sorry before I punched some bully in the nose. I would say sorry but you brought it on yourself.

The fact is this is a bad situation and it would not have mattered who was in office. The conservatives need to get off their cowboy kick and come back to reality. No matter how tough and John Wayne like the President talks does make a differance to religous fanatics. Conservatives need to stop fishing for outrage. It is making them loook stupid.

Now you all know why we can never let religous conservatives take over in this country. Just look at the Islamic world and see how hierarchy works. Shria law is just old testiment law. You know stoning people for adultry,prostitution,homosexual sex and anything else considered sin. With fanatics anything is possible just look at the abortion doctor murders.

Because the President's entuire foreign policy has been a disaster of philosophy, design and execution, and this is a glaring example of exactly how it has failed. Obama's foreign policy "resets" have made things worse. He screwed up ther attempted revol,t in Iran by doing nothing and he screwed up the Arab spring by allowing things to proceed to qwuickly with Egyptian elections (guaranteeing extremist Islamist victory). He then did nothing when the MB staged their little coup by ignoring the judiciary and drafting the constitution themselves.

His entire world view, particularly where it comes to the Middle East, is fundamentally wrong. He screwed up the Israel-Palestinian track to an unparalleled degree by creating daylight with Israel and causing the PA to back further into their intractable demands. He has been signularly unsuccessful with his silly "dialoguing" with Iran and any subsequent policies (which have not done anything to deny the Iranians nuclear weapons), he has demonstrated that non-democratic allies of the US get less support and less deference than non-democratic opponents of the U.S. (witness his tepid reaction to uprisings in Syria and Iran and compare to Egypt or finally compliant Libya).

Oh, and he lost the war in Afghanistan.

The only thing more of a failure than Obama's domestic policy is Obama's foreign policy.

 

[James D Hill]

I don't get where you claim Obama lied. What did he lie about?

That is all the GOP can say lately.They are not know for rheir creativity you know. I love that symbol you have.It looks like a album cover for some prog rock band.

 

[James D Hill]

Because the President's entuire foreign policy has been a disaster of philosophy, design and execution, and this is a glaring example of exactly how it has failed. Obama's foreign policy "resets" have made things worse. He screwed up ther attempted revol,t in Iran by doing nothing and he screwed up the Arab spring by allowing things to proceed to qwuickly with Egyptian elections (guaranteeing extremist Islamist victory). He then did nothing when the MB staged their little coup by ignoring the judiciary and drafting the constitution themselves.

His entire world view, particularly where it comes to the Middle East, is fundamentally wrong. He screwed up the Israel-Palestinian track to an unparalleled degree by creating daylight with Israel and causing the PA to back further into their intractable demands. He has been signularly unsuccessful with his silly "dialoguing" with Iran and any subsequent policies (which have not done anything to deny the Iranians nuclear weapons), he has demonstrated that non-democratic allies of the US get less support and less deference than non-democratic opponents of the U.S. (witness his tepid reaction to uprisings in Syria and Iran and compare to Egypt or finally compliant Libya).

Oh, and he lost the war in Afghanistan.

The only thing more of a failure than Obama's domestic policy is Obama's foreign policy.

Obama has a much better record than Bush on forein policy and you know it. Remember the weopens of mass destuction argument to go inti Iraq and cost 4500 American lives? I think the conservatives are just fishing for outrage again.

 

[James D Hill]

Perhaps we should place a picture of "the prophet" in a jar of urine next to the image of "the Savior" in a similar jar of urine and place them in a museum as a completed work of art. Shouldn't be much work since the one with the Savior is already there.

But was that urine drug free? We would not have wanted Jesus in marijuana infested pee.