Conneticut Shooting will be a Bad One

[TurtleDude]

For the person who claimed that gun shows supply 30% of the gun crime weapons

The Facts about Gun Shows | David Kopel | Cato Institute: Daily Commentary

and another massive lie is talking about a gun show loophole. There is NO SUCH THING




Gun Show "Loophole" Fraud: Part II - Gun Owners of America

Gun Shows Don’t Increase Crime, Study Finds - Ideas Market - WSJ

 

[Catawba]

How would a waiting period have prevented this shooting?

It wouldn't have in this case, but it would help reduce the thousands of gun deaths each year in the US. Like I said Jerry, we either figure out a way together to reduce these massacres or the people will pass much more broader gun control laws.

 

[AGENT J]

It wouldn't have in this case, but it would help reduce the thousands of gun deaths each year in the US. Like I said Jerry, we either figure out a way together to reduce these massacres or the people will pass much more broader gun control laws.

do you have any evidence of this?
i could make scenarios where it would actually attribute to deaths also

 

[TurtleDude]

It wouldn't have in this case, but it would help reduce the thousands of gun deaths each year in the US. Like I said Jerry, we either figure out a way together to reduce these massacres or the people will pass much more broader gun control laws.

do you have any proof for this claim? when a waiting period was required (prior to the IBC going up) a study was commissioned and all it could find was that a waiting period MAY HAVE decreased the number of suicides in one 5 year age cohort-I believe it was 50-55 year olds. No other impact on crime was found.

 

[ChrisL]

It wouldn't have in this case, but it would help reduce the thousands of gun deaths each year in the US. Like I said Jerry, we either figure out a way together to reduce these massacres or the people will pass much more broader gun control laws.

NO it would not. Most criminals obtain their guns illegally and possess them illegally. They don't "go through the process" to legally obtain and possess a weapon. Use your God-given common sense, will you? For one thing, criminals who are planning on committing murders don't want guns traced back to them normally. And in this current tragedy, if this guy didn't steal them from his mother, he could have easily gotten an illegal gun.

 

[Spartacus FPV]

30rnd mags are standard, not 'extended. An extended mag would hold more than 30 rounds, such as High-Capacity Magazine, 60 Round , non of which were used by this shooter.

Something makes me doubt this "marine's" credentials.

 

[Moot]

I look forward to reading the exact 'odds', how they were calculated, and based off of what source material.

I know you won't source anything, I'm just pointing out that your argument isn't based on facts, only hyper-emotional and grossly uninformed opinion.

Uh huh, and that you have to resort to petty insults in lieu of logic is a sure sign of an indefensable arguement and a losing strategy.

 

[Jerry]

I already have Jerry:

In 2009, the UK had 39 gun deaths, we had over 9,000 in the US.

I said "this case", the school shooting. Show us how your gun control helped in this school shooting. Show us what part registration played. Show us how a waiting period would have helped. Show us how age restrictions and background checks worked with regard to this school shooting.

And yes I see how you isolate "gun deaths" as though the casual reader doesn't know the difference between a murder and lawful self defense by a LEO, both of which are "gun deaths".

 

[Catawba]

1.) what does that have to do with what you claimed? that they are against keeping guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally deranged.

being opposed agaisnt waiting period does NOT translate in to that, thats just dishonesty.

2.) but mentally sound people dont think they are directly connected and realize that in reality they are not

3.) wrong, it MIGHT be, it COULD be, it also might be the WORST model as already proven.

Before you said you had never heard of the NRA, but now claim to be an expert on them? Are you any relation to Mitt?

OK, new NRA expert, What is the NRA doing to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally deranged?

And explain to me why only 39 deaths by guns in the UK is a bad thing?

 

[Thrilla]

It wouldn't have in this case, but it would help reduce the thousands of gun deaths each year in the US. Like I said Jerry, we either figure out a way together to reduce these massacres or the people will pass much more broader gun control laws.

i'm sure you can show stats that back up your argument of waiting periods and gun deaths... correct?

 

[Moot]

waiting periods are rather useless....they solve a problem that does not exist.

in the case of most , if not all, of these mass killings, the shooters were not down at the gun store that morning buying up firearms.

it's just another policy in a long list of well intentioned policies that simply does not work...

The waiting period has probably prevented more murders and suicides than not. But there aren't any stats for that because mere mortals still can't read minds so don't bother asking for them.

 

[Jerry]

Something makes me doubt this "marine's" credentials.

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he's an old vet from, perhaps, Vietnam, when 15rnd mags were issued at the same time the M16 was still a full-auto rifle.

 

[LaMidRighter]

do you have any evidence of this?
i could make scenarios where it would actually attribute to deaths also

To what I bolded, easily. The "cool off period" logic is based off of the theory that most crimes committed are "heat of passion" crimes such as getting into an argument, fight, or coming home to find the wife and half the neighborhood engaged in debaucherous sex acts. The logic is that if someone was mad enough to kill that they would just go and buy a gun to commit murder but it doesn't take into account that for the most part in the standard twenty minutes that it takes to go through the background check most people are already back to thinking straight.

However, let's think of the woman whose estranged husband under restraining order threatened to get in another beating before the divorce, or threatened her with immediate violence. Is she to have to wait seven plus days to obtain the means to defend herself? And if the threat is real what then is she to do? Heat of passion crimes literally happen in moments, and that would mean that the person engaging in said violence already has the means at their disposal.

 

[Jerry]

Uh huh, and that you have to resort to petty insults in lieu of logic is a sure sign of an indefensable arguement and a losing strategy.

I didn't see any numbers linked in that post so I'm ignoring it. Please feel free to give your evidence at any time, sourcing your exact numbers.

 

[Catawba]

do you have any evidence of this?
i could make scenarios where it would actually attribute to deaths also

You have no way to refute the stark contrast in deaths by guns in the UK with gun control and the deaths by guns in the US without gun control.

 

[Caine]

That's just ignorance and accepting defeat without even trying. Very un-American if you ask me.

I don't want to imply that mentally ill individuals are like sex offenders and drunk drivers as mental illness is not the person's fault. However, drunk drivers lose their license before they are even convicted and there are iPhone apps that will show me every sex offender in my neighborhood.

I'm not saying we need to do something that drastic, because the mentally ill deserve our compassion first. But systems can be designed to allow computers to talk to each other. Mental health should overlap with law enforcement AND gun permits. As soon as a doctor makes a diagnosis, that report goes in his computer and then a red flag goes up at the gun permit office and the local sheriff's departments.

Knock-knock... "I'm sorry Mrs. Lanza, but your son was given a prescription for an anti-psychotic medication, and, as long as he's living with you, then we have to confiscate the weapons in your name. And, if there are any other weapons in your home, please disclose them now, or we will have to arrest you if we find something w/o permit."

Do you know how much power a child protective service worker has with regard to protecting children? Why aren't we approaching potentially dangerous mental illness in that manner? I am specifically talking about schizophrenia and manic-depression, not garden variety depression or anxiety.

These safety systems are already in place with regard to airline travel.

And, yes, I know about the thriving black market for weapons. So, let's have that conversation. Everyone agrees that selling guns to criminals is something we don't want to happen, well, where did those guns first enter the black market? When did they go from being a legal firearm to an unregistered illegal firearm for sale on the black market? This is not rocket science folks. This giving the ATF and local law enforcement the tools to work together to protect public safety. Yes. It costs money and some people are going to feel unfairly inconvenienced.

Those are all entirely unacceptable methods of gun control.

Taking someone's property because of something someone else did? Forcing registration of weapons with the government?

Apparently you don't understand that REGISTRATION isn't the norm. I don't have to register **** with my state, nor should I.

 

[Jerry]

The waiting period has probably prevented more murders and suicides than not. But there aren't any stats for that because mere mortals still can't read minds so don't bother asking for them.

Looking forward to your source material.

 

[Jerry]

Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive
Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?
A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence.
Din B. Kates* and Gary Mauser**

The study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.

The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:

Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).

EDITORIAL: Guns decrease murder rates
In Washington, the best defense is self-defense
By THE WASHINGTON TIMES

More guns in law-abiding hands mean less crime. The District of Columbia proves the point.

<snip>

Few who lived in Washington during the 1970s can forget the upswing in crime that started right after the ban was originally passed. In the five years before the 1977 ban, the murder rate fell from 37 to 27 murders per 100,000. In the five years after the gun ban went into effect, the murder rate rose back up to 35. One fact is particularly hard to ignore: D.C.'s murder rate fluctuated after 1976 but only once fell below what it was in 1976 before the ban. That aberration happened years later, in 1985.

This correlation between the D.C. gun ban and diminished safety was not a coincidence. Look at the Windy City. Immediately after Chicago banned handguns in 1982, the murder rate, which had been falling almost continually for a decade, started to rise. Chicago's murder rate rose relative to other large cities as well. The phenomenon of higher murder rates after gun bans are passed is not just limited to the United States. Every single time a country has passed a gun ban, its murder rate soared.

<snip>

Two Little Square Black Dogs: I do not have a gun... I am not a murderer

....The LA Times had an article about the The European disdain for America violence but shouldn't spend too much time congratulating themselves. In 2000 the rate at which people where assaulted was higher in England, Scotland, Finland, Denmark and Sweden than in The United States. In the decade since England banned all private possessions of gun the number of gun crimes has gone up.Some of the worst examples of mass gun violence has occurred in Europe from students and teachers killed in Germany, 14 legislators shot in Switzerland to 8 city council members being shot outside of Paris.

Just recently a taxi driver in Cumbria, England killed 12 people and wounded 11.

UK is violent crime capital of Europe - Telegraph

Analysis of figures from the European Commission showed a 77 per cent increase in murders, robberies, assaults and sexual offenses in the UK since Labour came to power.

The total number of violent offenses recorded compared to population is higher than any other country in Europe, as well as America, Canada, Australia and South Africa.

[The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.
By James Slack
Last updated at 12:14 AM on 3rd July 2009

In the decade following the party's election in 1997, the number of recorded violent attacks soared by 77 per cent to 1.158million - or more than two every minute.

The figures, compiled from reports released by the European Commission and United Nations, also show:

• The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU.
• It has a higher homicide rate than most of our western European neighbours, including France, Germany, Italy and Spain.
• The UK has the fifth highest robbery rate in the EU.
• It has the fourth highest burglary rate and the highest absolute number of burglaries in the EU, with double the number of offences than recorded in Germany and France.

But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.

In the UK, there are 2,034 offenses per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.

The intentional homicide rate shows North America is lower than Eastern Europe, and also lower than the world average, and FAR lower than MANY other regions in the world: List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

England's Homicide Rate

The homicide rate (per capita) in England and Wales was 9.1 in the year 1900, a time when gun control laws were relatively lax.
In 2009, when gun laws are of draconian strictness, the homicide rate is 14.1
This is from an official parliament report.

GunCite-Gun Accidents

Fatal gun accidents declined by almost sixty percent from 1975 to 1995, even though the number of guns per capita increased by almost forty percent.

Fatal gun accidents involving children (aged 0-14) also fell significantly, from 495 in 1975, to under 250 in 1995. More children die from accidental drowning’s or burns than from gun accidents.

(Gun supply statistics are from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, gun accident rates from the National Safety Council).

England has worse crime rate than the US, says Civitas study

England and Wales has one of the worst crime rates among developed nations for rapes, burglaries and robberies, a major report has found.

The study found that England and Wales ranked highly in a survey of crime rates among more than 30 developed counries, based on the frequency of crimes recorded by police for every 100,000 people.

• For burglaries and robberies England and Wales had more crimes per 100,000 people than the USA. England and Wales was ranked sixth for burglaries – worse than Sweden, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Turkey, Italy and Chile - and for robberies, England and Wales was seventh.
• For rapes, England and Wales was ranked ninth, worse than the likes of Norway, Poland, Sweden, Australia and Germany, while for car thefts, England and Wales was eighth – worse than Slovenia, Chile, Mexico, Greece and the Czech Republic.

Nearly half of all offenders sent to prison are reconvicted within a year of release, creating a revolving door of crime.

 

[TurtleDude]

Before you said you had never heard of the NRA, but now claim to be an expert on them? Are you any relation to Mitt?

OK, new NRA expert, What is the NRA doing to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally deranged?

And explain to me why only 39 deaths by guns in the UK is a bad thing?

if the NRA didn't support mainly republican politicians would you be whining about them so much?

 

[TurtleDude]

I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he's an old vet from, perhaps, Vietnam, when 15rnd mags were issued at the same time the M16 was still a full-auto rifle.

there never was a 15 round mag issued for the STONER rifle (aka the M16) 20 and 30 were the military issue-you can buy 5 rounders for states where that is a hunting requirement

 

[AGENT J]

1.)Before you said you had never heard of the NRA, but now claim to be an expert on them? Are you any relation to Mitt?

2.)OK, new NRA expert, What is the NRA doing to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and the mentally deranged?

3.)And explain to me why only 39 deaths by guns in the UK is a bad thing?

1.) what? this is just nonsense if you cant logical, factually and intelligently defend your false claim no need to try failed insults LOL

deflect all you want but I still haven't claimed to know the NRA but the FACT remains that being against waiting periods is not equal to not wanting to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and mentally derranged.

so against i ask do you have something that supports your false claim?

2.) dont know and dont care, never said they were doing anything, i said im sure they support doing that, another deflection to avoid owning up to your false claim

3.) when did i say it was bad? how ole are you? you like just making stuff up dont you LOL

weird i asked for logical support of your claims thinking you were interested in honest conversation but that seems to be a mistake

let me know when you have something factual and logical and honest to bring to the table

 

[TurtleDude]

You have no way to refute the stark contrast in deaths by guns in the UK with gun control and the deaths by guns in the US without gun control.

so explain why the UK had almost no gun violence before it started banning guns and why their crime rate has gone way up after banning handguns while the USA's rate has GONE DOWN after allowing people in just about every state to carry concealed weapons

 

[AGENT J]

To what I bolded, easily. The "cool off period" logic is based off of the theory that most crimes committed are "heat of passion" crimes such as getting into an argument, fight, or coming home to find the wife and half the neighborhood engaged in debaucherous sex acts. The logic is that if someone was mad enough to kill that they would just go and buy a gun to commit murder but it doesn't take into account that for the most part in the standard twenty minutes that it takes to go through the background check most people are already back to thinking straight.

However, let's think of the woman whose estranged husband under restraining order threatened to get in another beating before the divorce, or threatened her with immediate violence. Is she to have to wait seven plus days to obtain the means to defend herself? And if the threat is real what then is she to do? Heat of passion crimes literally happen in moments, and that would mean that the person engaging in said violence already has the means at their disposal.

this would be one of my exact examples and it has factually happened

 

[Jerry]

Citizens with a permit should be allowed to carry onto any public school:

Oregon Firearms Federation

Putting aside for a moment that Oregon does not issue "concealed weapons permits," this school just like every other public school in the state, has NO authority to forbid a person with a concealed handgun license from entering school property. While both Oregon and Federal law forbid people from being on school property with firearms, concealed handgun license holders are exempt from both laws.Oregon statute 166.370 forbids firearms in "public buildings" which schools are, but subsection B says "this section does not apply to:... (d) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun"

As we have said elsewhere, if you have a child you maycarry unto public school property.

Oregon crime rate: 2.1: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0308.pdf

 

[TurtleDude]

Looking forward to your source material.

There is none. I am fully familiar with all the major studies and the one the clinton administration funded didn't say what they wanted. The only positive benefit that could be found to have flowed from a waiting period was a decrease in suicides among one age cohort. and there are cases of waiting periods getting people killed-often those who had taken out domestic restraining orders on stalkers etc