Confederate Flag

[ludahai]

What Lincoln believed is irrelevent. Rights do not magically appear or disappear based on what you believe. What Lincoln did was an act of imperialism.

The Southern states had no right to separate from the Union, none whatsoever! Those states were part of the United States. All of them became part of the territory of the United States based upon treaties signed by the NATIONAL government of the United States. A simple declaration of independence doesn't mean you are in fact independent. You have to secure recognition of the lawful sovereign power before you achieve de jure independence.

 

[nefarious_plot]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ludahai
Actually, the so-called genocide against American Indians is overstated. The overwhelming majority of American Indians were killed by disease, NOT by U.S. soldiers. "


:rofl Thats sounds familair. I believe been said about ww2. In the exact same words. About the same credibility too.

 

[ludahai]

:rofl Thats sounds familair. I believe been said about ww2. In the exact same words. About the same credibility too.

So, you are claiming that U.S. soldiers engaged in a systematic extermination of the American Indian population?!? Sorry to disappoint your liberal anti-American view of history, but it simply isn't true. Very few American Indians were killed by U.S. soldiers. For example, from 1840-1860, the height of expansion into the Mid-West, fewer than five hundred American Indians were documented to have been killed by U.S. soldiers during that twenty-year period!

 

[Stormflame]

Flying the Confederate flag is the god-given right of any US individual. It is not supporting slavery and being bias against the black race. It is a pride thing that simply is-Dixie.
Let me pose a question. If this were an ethnic symbol of ethnic pride and memory, and some caucasian person cried that he was offended by it, would it be taken down??!
Chances are...probably not.
Is that right? Is that one-sided? Is that undermining everything?:spin:

 

[Martyr_Machine]

The Southern states had no right to separate from the Union, none whatsoever! Those states were part of the United States. All of them became part of the territory of the United States based upon treaties signed by the NATIONAL government of the United States. A simple declaration of independence doesn't mean you are in fact independent. You have to secure recognition of the lawful sovereign power before you achieve de jure independence.

The states retained their sovereignty when they joined the union. They had every right to leave.

 

[ludahai]

The states retained their sovereignty when they joined the union. They had every right to leave.

No, they did not. ALL territory that is a part of the United States became such as a result of treaties signed by the NATIONAL government with FOREIGN powers. Those treaties assigned those territories to the UNITED STATES government. Those "states" never had sovereignty (outside the original 13), but even the territory of the original 13 became "independent" as a result of an international treaty signed by the national government.

 

[C.J.]

No, they did not. ALL territory that is a part of the United States became such as a result of treaties signed by the NATIONAL government with FOREIGN powers. Those treaties assigned those territories to the UNITED STATES government. Those "states" never had sovereignty (outside the original 13), but even the territory of the original 13 became "independent" as a result of an international treaty signed by the national government.

But, most if not all statehood bills contain a clause ceding the title to all property, real and personal, including public lands, to the state, naturally with certain exceptions. I guess it could be argued that if a state violated or nullified the agreement, the feds would get the property back.

The question of sovereignty is relatively simple. The states did not retain complete sovereignty (but did retain some aspects), and ceded some aspects of their sovereignty to the federal government.

 

[ludahai]

But, most if not all statehood bills contain a clause ceding the title to all property, real and personal, including public lands, to the state, naturally with certain exceptions. I guess it could be argued that if a state violated or nullified the agreement, the feds would get the property back.

The question of sovereignty is relatively simple. The states did not retain complete sovereignty (but did retain some aspects), and ceded some aspects of their sovereignty to the federal government.

However, such bills wouldn't cede ultimate sovereignty to the State government. The Federal Constitution would not permit. The Federal government has ultimate soveriegnty over any territory gained in a peace treaty (that is to say, ALL U.S. territory), but the states are given various powers to control local affairs in the Constitution. The only possible argument you could make otherwise would be the original 13 states.

 

[C.J.]

However, such bills wouldn't cede ultimate sovereignty to the State government. The Federal Constitution would not permit.

Actually, the few I have read do not specifically mention sovereignty, but rather which can do what, and sometimes why, but certainly ultimate sovereignty would go to the federal government, but that does not mean the states cede every power on every issue, just those issues empowered to the federal government by the Constitution.

The Federal government has ultimate soveriegnty over any territory gained in a peace treaty (that is to say, ALL U.S. territory), but the states are given various powers to control local affairs in the Constitution.

I've not stated otherwise concerning sovereignty, but actually the constitution defines the powers of the federal government, but does not give the states various powers to control local affairs, it does however prohibit certain powers to the states. Those powers not expressly given the federal government by the constitution are reserved to the states, they are not "given" to the states (Tenth Amendment), in other words they retain those powers that the Constitution does not give to the federal government.

The only possible argument you could make otherwise would be the original 13 states.

If it applies to the original 13, it would apply to all, whose statehood bill states that when they are declared admitted into the Union, they are "on an equal footing with the other States in all respects whatever." (ie:Alaska Statehood Act)

 

[marchare]

The states retained their sovereignty when they joined the union. They had every right to leave.

Rights are for humans, powers are for states, powers specified and limited by constitution and law. States lack the power to deport a citizen. A citizen has the right to protection from such deportation. Secession inherently removes citizens from the U.S., a power that individual states lack.

 

[TJS0110]

A state has rights that extend to a point, however they cannot infrige on the wellfare of the nation. They joined but by signing the constitution and decleration of independence they became part of the nation, kind of like a contract.

 

[HTColeman]

Rights are for humans, powers are for states, powers specified and limited by constitution and law. States lack the power to deport a citizen. A citizen has the right to protection from such deportation. Secession inherently removes citizens from the U.S., a power that individual states lack.

Interesting Fact of the Day; as Texas used to be a country before it was a state, when they became a state, they retained, and still do retain, the right to secede fully and be thier own country, with their property. Ain't that sumthin? As TX has no army or anything, that would never happen, but it is neat to know.

 

[TJS0110]

hmmmmm intersesting, so what your saying is we must kill texas. I like were your going with this! haha

 

[HTColeman]

hmmmmm intersesting, so what your saying is we must kill texas. I like were your going with this! haha

TX is the ****! We are the only state that wave its flag level with the American Flag.

 

[TJS0110]

hmm so your saying texas is going to die. Hmmm interseting theory.:2wave:hahahha

 

[Aryan Imperium]

So, you are claiming that U.S. soldiers engaged in a systematic extermination of the American Indian population?!? Sorry to disappoint your liberal anti-American view of history, but it simply isn't true. Very few American Indians were killed by U.S. soldiers. For example, from 1840-1860, the height of expansion into the Mid-West, fewer than five hundred American Indians were documented to have been killed by U.S. soldiers during that twenty-year period!

There is more than one way to exterminate a people.
Swamp a country with alien peoples, deny the indigenous people the right to bear arms to resist the invaders, encourage "multiculturalism", enforce "equal rights" and present race-mixing as normal and before you realise it a people have been exterminated.

 

[Aryan Imperium]

Re: Nazi Flag

Good point regarding confederate flags. Down South you still see them all the time, they're not necessarily looked down upon despite representing racism.

The whacko logic re confederate flags is that it symbolizes the South. The problem is that the South that it symbolizes were slave owners and bigots and these brilliant people brutalized blacks!

Defending the confederate flag is the same thing as defending racism and segregation.

And is that a bad thing? When negroes had a master servant relationship there was relative harmony:each man knew his allotted place in the hierarchy and the so-called "slaves" that you refer to were actually fed and looked after.
Their real hardships occurred when you gave them their "freedom".

 

[Aryan Imperium]

Re: Nazi Flag

The Nazis hijacked the swastika from the Hindus much the same way the KKK hijacked the Confederate flag.

If the protest is to get legal action taken against the store, then stay very, very far away...the area will combust in about 20 seconds...

If the protest is to just point out the flags to unsuspecting customers and to deter them (legally) from making purchases there, then have at it...provided you feel strongly enough to want to protest.

The National Socialist movement adopted the swastika as its symbol because it is one of the holy signs of our people, indeed the holiest.

To quote from Adolf Hitler, "And a symbol it really is! Not only that the unique colours, which all of us so passionately love and which once won so much honour for the German people, attest our veneration for the past; they were also the best embodiment of the movement`s will. As National Socialist, we see our programme in our flag. In red we see the social idea of the movement, in white the nationalistic idea, in the swastika the mission of the struggle for the victory of Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of the idea of creative work, which as such always has been and always will be anti-Semitic"[Mein Kampf",The Struggle With The Red Front.]

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

So, you are claiming that U.S. soldiers engaged in a systematic extermination of the American Indian population?!? Sorry to disappoint your liberal anti-American view of history, but it simply isn't true. Very few American Indians were killed by U.S. soldiers. For example, from 1840-1860, the height of expansion into the Mid-West, fewer than five hundred American Indians were documented to have been killed by U.S. soldiers during that twenty-year period!

Umm... You're right that we didn't actively kill them, but marching someone from, say, the Mid West to Oklahoma... Whether or not we actively shot them, the large number of deaths died because of starvation, exposure, etc. Those numbers are also our fault.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Re: Nazi Flag

And is that a bad thing? When negroes had a master servant relationship there was relative harmony:each man knew his allotted place in the hierarchy and the so-called "slaves" that you refer to were actually fed and looked after.

They were also beat to death, treated like cattle, raped(THAT'S RIGHT, RACE MIXING)... To say their was harmony... Ever heard of Nat Turner? Ever heard of John Brown?

 

[cnredd]

Umm... You're right that we didn't actively kill them, but marching someone from, say, the Mid West to Oklahoma... Whether or not we actively shot them, the large number of deaths died because of starvation, exposure, etc. Those numbers are also our fault.

I hate to tell you, but I don't consider anything I haven't personally done "our fault".

Please don't include me in this "America's original sin that we're born with" stuff. I have no guilt for things I didn't participate in.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

I hate to tell you, but I don't consider anything I haven't personally done "our fault".

Please don't include me in this "America's original sin that we're born with" stuff. I have no guilt for things I didn't participate in.

I feel guilty sometimes. You don't feel guilty when you think about how awesome your life and the oppurtunities in it are and think of how many people died because of it?

 

[nefarious_plot]

I feel guilty sometimes. You don't feel guilty when you think about how awesome your life and the oppurtunities in it are and think of how many people died because of it?

Well seeing as oputunites and quailty of life are ebbing away in America I dont feel to quilty. Seeing as americans are nation imigrants placing blame is complex. people are here beco,ming citzens regualry. There familes before them never were here before so hard to blame them or expect them to fel quilty for the past. Imigrants to this nation still are european and white in more cases then some would belive as well.

 

[TJS0110]

Why would those people want us to feel guilty, they didn't die to lay on a guilt trip. They died so we could have an amazing life, they wanted us to have this amazing life. We shouldn't feel guilty, we should feel proud that we are descendints of such amazing, and selfless, people. We should look back on the mistakes that were made getting to this point and try to grow through what we learn. We shouldn't feel guilty, instead we should try to keep from makeing some of the same mistakes and try to follow there good examples.

 

[cnredd]

I feel guilty sometimes. You don't feel guilty when you think about how awesome your life and the oppurtunities in it are and think of how many people died because of it?

Regrets...I've had a few...but then again...too few too mention...

I feel more proud of the accomplishments than guilt for the mistakes...