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comparing Iraq and Ukraine wars

Hannu

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Some comments about the wars in Iraq and Ukraine, and comparing them. First...
The same rules of logic that apply everywhere else, must apply to morality as well. If X+Y= 4, then Y+X = 4 also. If A doing X is morally ok, because B somewhere completely else does X too, then also B doing X is morally ok too by the same rules, because A does X also. If Putin's war in Ukraine is morally ok/completely excuseable because W did similar in Iraq, then by the same logic Iraq war is also morally ok, because Russia does the same too. This is a logical trap some anti-war people sometimes seem to fall into.
Also, the cases are not of course completely similar. It is easy to quickly find at least 3 reasons why the war against Ukraine is even worse then W's war in Iraq.
1: The lies about Ukraine are even worse, bald-faced lies than lies about Iraq.
2: Ukraine is a democracy, Iraq was a dictatorship, so attacking the former was even more wrong.
3: While this thing is difficult to estimate, it seems to me Russia is more intentionally targeting civilians, their own casualties seem already larger than America's in Iraq, and the overall human cost will be more terrible in Ukraine than in Iraq as time passes and the war drags on.

It seems to me W's war in Iraq kind of shows what can happen when people get as much power as a president of a superpower can have too young and too immature to wield such power (also something that ought to be remembered imo when presidents' age is in discussion). Putin's war in Ukraine shows what can happen when a super power president has no term limits on how long he can stay in power.

Another matter about the two wars - the soldiers suicides because of the lies told to them by the political leadership. As happened after the Iraq war lies. Just wondering - how many cases there will become to be, of Russian soldiers in their last letter to parents before shotting themselves in the head, telling about how all the things they were told were lies, about Nazies holding power in Ukraine, about biological/chemical weapons, about civilians welcome then... all were lies, bald-faced lies, intentional lies, and about how their have lost their faith to the own country, to the life itself. Also wondering how many Russian propagandist have ever paused to even consider such a scenarion. And how they can sleep at night if they have.
 

watsup

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Some comments about the wars in Iraq and Ukraine, and comparing them. First...
The same rules of logic that apply everywhere else, must apply to morality as well. If X+Y= 4, then Y+X = 4 also. If A doing X is morally ok, because B somewhere completely else does X too, then also B doing X is morally ok too by the same rules, because A does X also. If Putin's war in Ukraine is morally ok/completely excuseable because W did similar in Iraq, then by the same logic Iraq war is also morally ok, because Russia does the same too. This is a logical trap some anti-war people sometimes seem to fall into.
Also, the cases are not of course completely similar. It is easy to quickly find at least 3 reasons why the war against Ukraine is even worse then W's war in Iraq.
1: The lies about Ukraine are even worse, bald-faced lies than lies about Iraq.
2: Ukraine is a democracy, Iraq was a dictatorship, so attacking the former was even more wrong.
3: While this thing is difficult to estimate, it seems to me Russia is more intentionally targeting civilians, their own casualties seem already larger than America's in Iraq, and the overall human cost will be more terrible in Ukraine than in Iraq as time passes and the war drags on.

It seems to me W's war in Iraq kind of shows what can happen when people get as much power as a president of a superpower can have too young and too immature to wield such power (also something that ought to be remembered imo when presidents' age is in discussion). Putin's war in Ukraine shows what can happen when a super power president has no term limits on how long he can stay in power.

Another matter about the two wars - the soldiers suicides because of the lies told to them by the political leadership. As happened after the Iraq war lies. Just wondering - how many cases there will become to be, of Russian soldiers in their last letter to parents before shotting themselves in the head, telling about how all the things they were told were lies, about Nazies holding power in Ukraine, about biological/chemical weapons, about civilians welcome then... all were lies, bald-faced lies, intentional lies, and about how their have lost their faith to the own country, to the life itself. Also wondering how many Russian propagandist have ever paused to even consider such a scenarion. And how they can sleep at night if they have.

Many Americans were against Bush’s little war based on lies in Iraq. The primary difference at this point is that we were able to say so quite out loud and quite often, as is the wont generally in this First Amendment nation, whereas those who speak out in Russia about the little war based on lies by the evil madman Putin are arrested and put in jail, WORDS THEMSELVES (war, invasion) become criminal acts, and any media that dares to speak the truth are immediately shut down. Huge difference! We were unable to stop Bush’s little war based on lies in Iraq, but at least we had the opportunity to try.
 

Hannu

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Very true. I think at the root of the Ukraine war is also the the tendency of sycophants and yes-men to tell the leader what he wants to hear (that Ukraine war would be over in a few days, ppl would welcome the Russians), instead of telling truth - that way they avoid facing Putin's wrath. Then those same crooked yes-men are considered patriots and honest ppl who want to tell the leader the truth are labeled traitors, when actually it is completely the other way around. Putin himself of course blames his underlings, while it would make much more sense that since he himself encourages this kind of corruption the one really at fault is he himself.
 

watsup

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Very true. I think at the root of the Ukraine war is also the the tendency of sycophants and yes-men to tell the leader what he wants to hear (that Ukraine war would be over in a few days, ppl would welcome the Russians), instead of telling truth - that way they avoid facing Putin's wrath. Then those same crooked yes-men are considered patriots and honest ppl who want to tell the leader the truth are labeled traitors, when actually it is completely the other way around. Putin himself of course blames his underlings, while it would make much more sense that since he himself encourages this kind of corruption the one really at fault is he himself.

As regards the Iraq war, I believe that you are correct whenyou say that Bush was in way over his head as president. Plus he was just plain stupid. That was quite evident every time he opened his mouth.
Cheney on the other hand, was just plain evil. Not on the level of Putin, of course, but he was very cold and calculating and did not let any ethical standards stand in the way when he wanted something. He is the one who kept going over and twisting the arms at the CIA until they finally gave in and claimed that Saddam had “WMD”. That opened the door for Bush and Cheney to lie the themselves into the war.
 

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Four similarities immediately leap out at me:

1) The obviously bullshit rationale for invading. The lies weren't as insulting as the lies for invading Ukraine, but they were pretty bad.
2) The drum beat of war: the pervasive sense that Bush was going to invade no matter what. That's actually how I knew the invasion of Ukraine was absolutely going to happen. The "drum beat of war" isn't just a rhetorical device. You know when you're hearing it because it has the sound of inevitability.
3) The desperate and constantly shifting justifications for it after the fact. "Hey look! We found a canister of mustard gas from 1964! WE WERE RIGHT."
4) While we weren't a global pariah, the international community (minus UK, Australia and Poland) said, "Yeah, this is all you, big guy. Good luck with that."
 
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noonereal

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No doubt, going to Iraq under junior was hypocritical and immoral.
It simply cannot be justified. Russia has better justification for going into 🇺🇦 Ukraine.
 

noonereal

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"Better?" There wasn't any justification at all.

Historical Russia has always sought to have a buffer between them and the west. This is nothing new at all. Its cultural for them . Iraq had no such traditional compulsions to satiate.
 

watsup

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Historical Russia has always sought to have a buffer between them and the west. This is nothing new at all. Its cultural for them . Iraq had no such traditional compulsions to satiate.

“Cultural” is far from a valid excuse for war. It’s closer to Putin propaganda.
 

watsup

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For some reason there's been some tacit national agreement to just forgive and forget Dubya's disastrous tenure.

Primarily because we thought that there could never be another Repub president as bad as Junior Bush but, sadly, we were proven wrong.
 

noonereal

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“Cultural” is far from a valid excuse for war. It’s closer to Putin propaganda.

Did I say it was a valid excuess?

But people here seem to know nothing of Russian or eastern European history or culture . It is wise to understand these things. Stalin at Yalta had the same concern.
 

Cardinal

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Historical Russia has always sought to have a buffer between them and the west. This is nothing new at all. Its cultural for them . Iraq had no such traditional compulsions to satiate.
Countries aren't entitled to buffer states.
 

noonereal

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For some reason there's been some tacit national agreement to just forgive and forget Dubya's disastrous tenure.

I hated Clinton, never voted for him but on 911, for the first time, i wished he was president rather than the moron Bush.
 

watsup

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Did I say it was a valid excuess?

But people here seem to know nothing of Russian or eastern European history or culture . It is wise to understand these things. Stalin at Yalta had the same concern.

I think that at least the more intelligent members of these threads do indeed understand that Putin is willing to spread all sorts of propaganda regarding “culture” in order to “justify” his invasion. But the intelligent people here also recognize what he is doing and don’t spend time quoting him.
 

noonereal

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Countries aren't entitled to buffer states.

You need to post be intellectual not emotional.
Yes, putin is a war criminal. Yes Putin should have attacked.
But to refuse to understand the dynamics at play because its not your tribe?
Not a good look. Unless of course, you value tribe mantras over truths.
Peace
 

noonereal

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I think that at least the more intelligent members of these threads do indeed understand that Putin is willing to spread all sorts of propaganda regarding “culture” in order to “justify” his invasion. But the intelligent people here also recognize what he is doing and don’t spend time quoting him.

Sorry for the limitations displayed on this subject in your posts.
Kinda sad that people simply can't talk and think objectively.
Oh well, I run into this every day in every walk of life.
It supports what I always say, humans a failed species.

Peace.
 

Cardinal

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You need to post be intellectual not emotional.
Yes, putin is a war criminal. Yes Putin should have attacked.
But to refuse to understand the dynamics at play because its not your tribe?
Not a good look. Unless of course, you value tribe mantras over truths.
Peace
Russia's "cultural history" of wanting buffer states doesn't entitle them to buffer states any more than it entitles anybody else to them.
 

noonereal

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Russia's "cultural history" of wanting buffer states doesn't entitle them to buffer states any more than it entitles anybody else to them.
I did not say it did, did i?

But to be unaware of this cultural history is to not understand your enemy.
I don't like to be that way.
Yes I support tribe but I won't dumb down myself in the process.
 

watsup

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Sorry for the limitations displayed on this subject in your posts.
Kinda sad that people simply can't talk and think objectively.
Oh well, I run into this every day in every walk of life.
It supports what I always say, humans a failed species.

Peace.

Whatever. What I note is that you don’t actually make any claims that my post is incorrect, but prefer to resort to juvenile ad hom instead. Again, whatever.
 

watsup

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I did not say it did, did i?

But to be unaware of this cultural history is to not understand your enemy.
I don't like to be that way.
Yes I support tribe but I won't dumb down myself in the process.

It is your FALSE claim that we are unaware of said cultural history. Simply not true.
 

Michael Cole

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As regards the Iraq war, I believe that you are correct whenyou say that Bush was in way over his head as president. Plus he was just plain stupid. That was quite evident every time he opened his mouth.
Cheney on the other hand, was just plain evil. Not on the level of Putin, of course, but he was very cold and calculating and did not let any ethical standards stand in the way when he wanted something. He is the one who kept going over and twisting the arms at the CIA until they finally gave in and claimed that Saddam had “WMD”. That opened the door for Bush and Cheney to lie the themselves into the war.
PNAC controlled foreign policy in the Bush administration.

A right-wing think-tank founded in '97. Here's the “Statement of Principles”

E_MGER2VgAAZTZc.png


Here's an interesting list of signatories and contributors. Of note, Cheney, Jeb Bush, Bolton, Steve Forbes, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Bill Bennett, all signatories to the Statement of Principles. It's a who's who of neocons. Long, long list.

 

Cardinal

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I did not say it did, did i?

But to be unaware of this cultural history is to not understand your enemy.
I don't like to be that way.
Yes I support tribe but I won't dumb down myself in the process.
Why do you assume I'm unaware of it, and how would being aware of it make it any better or less a justification? It has no bearing.
 
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