comparing Iraq and Ukraine wars

[Craig234]

GW was a dim bulb. Cheney was the master mind.

Give him the little credit he deserves. He was a tadpole among sharks, where the sharks supplied the agenda (the Neocons), the lobbying industry of 35,000 and their sponsors had all the legislative goals ready for him, and so on, but he had developed some strong abilities as a 'con man', much like trump. He had Cheney to run things much like trump planned to, but to be fair, by the end of his presidency Bush 'demoted' Cheney somewhat, e.g. firing Rumsfeld.

 

[watsup]

I won't claim to have a real understanding of the various causes, but one was when the exiled Kuwaiti government hired a US ad company who employed Bush's former chief of staff to launch an ad campaign promoting war on Saddam, which included the Kuwait ambassador's daughter lying to Congress that she was a nurse who saw Iraqis take babies from incubators that had great national effect.

Saddam had Kuwait in his mind, so he checked with the ambassador to Kuwait to get feedback from the US. The ambassador called Daddy Bush, but he was on vacation in Maine and couldn’t be bothered, so he just sluffit off. The ambassador took that to mean that the US didn’t care and wouldn’t interfere in any tussle between Saddam and Kuwait, so Saddam took that as a green light to go after Kuwait’s oilfields, which eventually led up to Gulf War I.
And there you have it. Gulf War I because Daddy Bush was on vacation and couldn’t be bothered with details

See my next post for follow-up.

 

[watsup]

1) Then that was on the CIA. Not the Bush Admin.
2) Hans Blix had stated that he was NEVER going to find Iraq in violation regarding possession of WMDs. Because he was not going to be used to justify U.S. military action against Iraq. So whatever Blix claimed has no credibility.

I have given you the truth and the facts in post #146. That’s all I can do. If you insist on parroting the right wing propaganda about the war instead, There’s nothing I can do about that.

 

[Dayton3]

I have given you the truth and the facts in post #146. That’s all I can do. If you insist on parroting the right wing propaganda about the war instead, There’s nothing I can do about that.

Do you deny that the CIA Director himself told President Bush that evidence of WMDs in Iraq was a "slam dunk"?

 

[craig]

Do you deny that the CIA Director himself told President Bush that evidence of WMDs in Iraq was a "slam dunk"?

Think about it. Could they have been ready to be delivered directly to the US?

 

[watsup]

Follow up regarding Gulf War II: again, it has to do with a Bush on vacation, this time Junior Bush in Texas. The CIA was beginning to be concerned about background noise that they were getting about a possible plan by a fella named Bin Laden to stage an attack of some sort on the United States. In fact, they were so concerned that they wrote up a briefing paper entitled “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the United States”. In fact, their concern was such that they decided to send an agent to Texas to personally brief the president on it. Well, Bush just happened to be on the golf course (again), so that’s where the agent caught up with him and explained the intel and the concern. Again, this Bush couldn’t be bothered, so he just laughed it off and told the agent that “okay, you’ve done your job, now you can get back in the plane and go back to DC”. In other words, just like his Daddy, he sluffed it off and went back to playing golf. And only about a month later we had 9/11 and Bush’s excuse to start Gulf War II.
Just imagine if we had a president who was a serious person instead of a dumb goofball like Bush. He would have said “get me everything you know about this and be at the house first thing in the morning”. But no, we had a dilettante President, George W Bush.

And there you have it. We had Gulf War I and II because Daddy and Junior Bush were more interested in driving cigar boats and playing golf than taking seriously their job as President of the United States..

 

[watsup]

Do you deny that the CIA Director himself told President Bush that evidence of WMDs in Iraq was a "slam dunk"?

Did you even read my post #246? I explained it in there. Go read it.

 

[watsup]

Think about it. Could they have been ready to be delivered directly to the US?

Ummm—no.

 

[Dayton3]

Think about it. Could they have been ready to be delivered directly to the US?

delivery vehicles were never the issue nor did the Bush admin make any such claims

 

[Craig234]

Saddam had Kuwait in his mind, so he checked with the ambassador to Kuwait to get feedback from the US. The ambassador called Daddy Bush, but he was on vacation in Maine and couldn’t be bothered, so he just sluffit off. The ambassador took that to mean that the US didn’t care and wouldn’t interfere in any tussle between Saddam and Kuwait, so Saddam took that as a green light to go after Kuwait’s oilfields, which eventually led up to Gulf War I.
And there you have it. Gulf War I because Daddy Bush was on vacation and couldn’t be bothered with details

See my next post for follow-up.

I remember that Ambassador April Gillespie IIRC from the time. I've never been able to quite verify it, but I haven't found anything that it isn't correct.

 

[craig]

delivery vehicles were never the issue nor did the Bush admin make any such claims

They definitely implied it was an imminent threat. Afghanistan was necessarily. Iraq was just an opportunity for the neocons.

 

[Dayton3]

They definitely implied it was an imminent threat. Afghanistan was necessarily. Iraq was just an opportunity for the neocons.

implied but not stated or claimed outright correct?

 

[watsup]

implied but not stated or claimed outright correct?

Implied = lied.

 

[Dayton3]

Implied = lied.

Those are not the same things and you well know it.

 

[craig]

implied but not stated or claimed outright correct?

Weasel words?

 

[Dayton3]

Weasel words?

In the real world those kinds of words actually matter.

 

[craig]

In the real world those kinds of words actually matter.

Maybe to politicians and used car salesmen, not to the honest.

 

[Hannu]

You're generally right, but left out a couple of things about Bush. He was a very cynical and corrupt user of power, dedicated to furthering the interests of that class he was a 'fortunate son' in. He had contempt for most of the country and world - like trump does - as fools for him to use and manipulate. There seemed to be an odd combination of his knowingly using evangelical people with some personal involvement as well.



You're right; and I think no one is using Iraq as justification for Ukraine, instead Ukraine is being used to 'wake people up' to better appreciate the wrong of what we did to Iraq, how we have a problem with a lot of our country being blind to the same things they are criticizing with Putin.

The simple answer to your question on W's accountability is power. In the US, the law is that no one in the government can be sued for anything they do in their official capacity, essentially - a legal doctrine named 'sovereign immunity'. Then there are other forms of legal accountability - the UN, the International criminal court for just that sort of wrongdoing - where the US could veto any Security Council action and has refused to join the ICC.

Really, that's a lesson of Iraq - to compare our right recognition of the horrors in Ukraine to our national never caring about millions killed in Vietnam or displaced in Iraq, while just lumping them all as 'needed losses for good causes'. That's the issue, not any justification for Ukraine.

- And, Europe surely have every bit as much atrocities done (even smaller countries like, say, Belgium, during colonialism). Also, considering themselves a kind of "master race" surely is not something Russia has historically, or even today, been above, I think such sentiments may be one root cause for this war. And Russia has never kind of confronted its own colonialism or racism like the west, which is why it is easier to miss.
I also had some difficult to notice comments at the begin of my earlier answer, I hope they were not too easy to miss.

 

[Hannu]

I wish you were right, but think you have a greatly exaggerated idea of the 'counter' effects. People were able to commit terrible acts in Vietnam and yet still feel it was a 'good cause'. People are able to perform many military functions for the US where 'morale' isn't a factor; it's not all heroes on the streets of Ukraine where it's hugely important. And political tribalism and nationalism can make people support almost anything.

To this day, much of the US, if you asked them for lessons, you'd hear things like 'the problem in Vietnam was that politicians tied the hands of the military'.

Or you might hear on Iraq, 'honest mistakes were made trying to protect our country, I'm glad they were trying after 9/11'.

Not really any lessons involving the corruption of the wars, the lies around them that went well beyond WMD, appreciation of the great harm caused etc. Ukraine comparisons have helped illustrate the problem of our whitewashing. Power is a disinfectant, in a sense. It has no effect on the disaster, but it erases it from people's awareness and makes it easy to repeat.

On the other hand, poor morale both with ordinary Russian soldiers being lied to war barely knowing where they are, and the military leaders following Putin, who may know they are lying to Putin but do so because telling him what he wants to hear lest he get furious is the way to deal with him, may be a big reason why the Russian attack is failing. Also, one long time consequence no doubt in Russia too will be psychological trauma with soldiers being used and deceived there. I also wonder how much of the equipment crisis there is because of things like leaders stealing and re-selling it, such things happen when top leader is properly dealed by yes-men telling him what he wants to save their skins, instead of being honest.

Btw - one similarity between Iraq and Ukraine wars imo is that the president pressured, either knowingly or unknowingly, the country's intelligence to give him "information" he wanted to hear. Yes-men succumbing to it to save their own careers is wrong, but the top leader encouraging such corruption is even more so and so imo the one most at fault for the wrong information were W and Putin both.

 

[Hannu]

Follow up regarding Gulf War II: again, it has to do with a Bush on vacation, this time Junior Bush in Texas. The CIA was beginning to be concerned about background noise that they were getting about a possible plan by a fella named Bin Laden to stage an attack of some sort on the United States. In fact, they were so concerned that they wrote up a briefing paper entitled “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the United States”. In fact, their concern was such that they decided to send an agent to Texas to personally brief the president on it. Well, Bush just happened to be on the golf course (again), so that’s where the agent caught up with him and explained the intel and the concern. Again, this Bush couldn’t be bothered, so he just laughed it off and told the agent that “okay, you’ve done your job, now you can get back in the plane and go back to DC”. In other words, just like his Daddy, he sluffed it off and went back to playing golf. And only about a month later we had 9/11 and Bush’s excuse to start Gulf War II.
Just imagine if we had a president who was a serious person instead of a dumb goofball like Bush. He would have said “get me everything you know about this and be at the house first thing in the morning”. But no, we had a dilettante President, George W Bush.

And there you have it. We had Gulf War I and II because Daddy and Junior Bush were more interested in driving cigar boats and playing golf than taking seriously their job as President of the United States..

.. Now I see why they had a such fervent need to convince people that "no one could have prevent 9/11

 

[Craig234]

Btw - one similarity between Iraq and Ukraine wars imo is that the president pressured, either knowingly or unknowingly, the country's intelligence to give him "information" he wanted to hear

A difference being, Bush got away with it and gave Tenet a medal, while Putin has arrested his top intelligence officials.