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comparing Iraq and Ukraine wars

The arguments for invading Iraq the second time around were obvious bullshit to everybody with a functioning cortex. People believed the arguments if they were predisposed to believing them.
Bush was very careful in riding the coattails of 9/11. Did he or did he not say Iraq (Saddam) was tied to 9/11? Doesn't matter. It worked. Like you say, those predisposed to believing it did.

Iraq had been in the crosshairs of neocons prior to W's election. George was a willing participant. Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz ran the show.
 
Bush was very careful in riding the coattails of 9/11. Did he or did he not say Iraq (Saddam) was tied to 9/11? Doesn't matter. It worked. Like you say, those predisposed to believing it did.

Iraq had been in the crosshairs of neocons prior to W's election. George was a willing participant. Cheney, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz ran the show.
And the news outlets went along for the ride. The offender that's most notable isn't notable because they were the most prolific in disseminating misinformation (that honor will always go to Fox News), but because the public trusted them specifically not to do that. I am of course speaking of the New York Times. This is arguably the worst lapse in journalistic principles of that paper in the 20th century. Of course it could be argued that a near equal lapse was in treating the investigation into Hillary's email's as a serious matter, which ultimately caused her election loss in 2016.

 
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I don't disagree. What I disagree with is the idea that the invasion of Iraq and the invasion of Ukraine have anything whatsoever in common (other than the invasion part).
Yeah, I forgot the OP. Lol.

Agree with you there too. It is a silly comparison. Ukraine is a democracy being invaded by an autocrat. Iraq was an autocracy being invaded by a democracy. Iraq was a huge blunder.

Milosevic was a brutal autocrat as well, but our intervention in Kosovo was a resounding success, as was Bush's pappy's Iraq war. The neocons failed us. Poor George W.

Absolutely no comparison I can think of either.
 
Oh how quickly people forget. The 2nd invasion of Iraq grew out of the first Gulf War (which was a massive international response to IRAQ's invasion of another country), and Hussein's refusal to comply with the terms of his surrender in that war. The fact that the stated premises for the invasion turned out to be incorrect doesn't mean the invasion was not justified. The fact that we had to invade to confirm that the premises were incorrect should tell us all we need to know.

In short, there's no comparison. Not even a little.

“Oh now quickly we forget.” And yet you clearly have not forgotten the propaganda lies that Bush and Cheney told to get us into the war. In fact, you are very good at parroting them even two decades later!
 
Mexico has historic concerns, but I'm guessing Los Angelenos would resist if they tried to retake the California Republic.
Clearly, this post exemplifies a vast void of knowledge.
God bless 🙏 you
 
“Oh now quickly we forget.” And yet you clearly have not forgotten the propaganda lies that Bush and Cheney told to get us into the war. In fact, you are very good at parroting them even two decades later!

Which propaganda and lies have I not forgotten (and indeed I'm supposedly parroting) that are supposedly relevant to my comments here?
 
Well, that's ultimately what it came down to! The international community rushed to carry out investigations in an effort to stave off what was strongly turning into an inevitable war, and Bush was like, "Nope! Out of time, mother****ers, we're going in!" As I said, the Bush administration permeated it with a sense of inevitability. You know that one friend who's made up his mind to make a bad decision, and nothing anybody can say will alter his course? That was the leadup to the second Iraq War.

And the results of that headlong rush into adventure? Well, history has ruled on that.
 
Which propaganda and lies have I not forgotten (and indeed I'm supposedly parroting) that are supposedly relevant to my comments here?

Your lies from post #35 which were esposed two decades also and which we have already noted. Please pay better attention.
 
Your lies from post #35 which were esposed two decades also and which we have already noted. Please pay better attention.

Demonstrate that anything I wrote in post #35 was a lie. Or is this just you lying instead?
 
Demonstrate that anything I wrote in post #35 was a lie. Or is this just you lying instead?

Again, we have already done so. All you need to do is to review our response to get the answer to your question.
 
Again, we have already done so. All you need to do is to review our response to get the answer to your question.

No you haven't. Not even close. That's a lie all in itself.
 
Not my problem if you don’t or can’t keep up. See post #59 above, for instance..

There's not a single word in #59 establishing that anything I posted in #35 is even incorrect, let alone a lie. Your persistent refusal to quote anything I said and present facts establishing your claim is perfect evidence that YOU are lying, though.
 
There's not a single word in #59 establishing that anything I posted in #35 is even incorrect, let alone a lie. Your persistent refusal to quote anything I said and present facts establishing your claim is perfect evidence that YOU are lying, though.

Well okay then, hold fast to your lies. It’s what Bush and Cheney did two decades ago, so you might as well do so now. They’re still lies.
 
Four similarities immediately leap out at me:

1) The obviously bullshit rationale for invading. The lies weren't as insulting as the lies for invading Ukraine, but they were pretty bad.
2) The drum beat of war: the pervasive sense that Bush was going to invade no matter what. That's actually how I knew the invasion of Ukraine was absolutely going to happen. The "drum beat of war" isn't just a rhetorical device. You know when you're hearing it because it has the sound of inevitability.
3) The desperate and constantly shifting justifications for it after the fact. "Hey look! We found a canister of mustard gas from 1964! WE WERE RIGHT."
4) While we weren't a global pariah, the international community (minus UK, Australia and Poland) said, "Yeah, this is all you, big guy. Good luck with that."
No real contra-arguments from me. There was surely lots of similarities, imo Ukraine is quite clearly even worse case though. In my country the Russian propaganda imo usually works like "ok for Russia to do X since US some time does similar thing(even if the thing done by Russia is a bigger crime)" then show the whole statement to be just bs and empty rhetorics by never saying that "of course by same logic US doing X is morally ok too since Russia does similar or even worse thing. Oth imo not recognizing W's faults like some still do can play into Putin's hand too, because if Iraq war is afterwards justified, inspections being underway unhampered with nothing found, with the excuse that "why didn't he convince us he did not have WMD's?" (when there was no way he could have convinced the neocons of it), then what's the difference with Putin arguing like "look what you make me do, Zelensky! Why did you not convince me you are not nazis building secret biological weapons to you use against Russia?".
 
Countries aren't entitled to buffer states.
Yea, and what purpose would this buffer serve?Not as if Ukraine was going to be invading Russia- ever.
 
Oh how quickly people forget. The 2nd invasion of Iraq grew out of the first Gulf War (which was a massive international response to IRAQ's invasion of another country), and Hussein's refusal to comply with the terms of his surrender in that war. The fact that the stated premises for the invasion turned out to be incorrect doesn't mean the invasion was not justified. The fact that we had to invade to confirm that the premises were incorrect should tell us all we need to know.

In short, there's no comparison. Not even a little.
It should be clear, when the inspections for WMD's where still underway, and underway unhampered, with nothing found, that the right thing to do would have been TO LET THE INSPECTIONS BE COMPLETED. By now this ought to be clear to everyone. But if the neocons would have done that, they would have lost the rationale for war.
 
Yea, and what purpose would this buffer serve?Not as if Ukraine was going to be invading Russia- ever.
So far, every pretext for invasion logically leads to every country on earth being at war with every country on its border (as well as nearly every other country on earth). But I gotta say, this "right to a buffer state" argument really takes the cake.
 
It should be clear, when the inspections for WMD's where still underway, and underway unhampered, with nothing found, that the right thing to do would have been TO LET THE INSPECTIONS BE COMPLETED. By now this ought to be clear to everyone. But if the neocons would have done that, they would have lost the rationale for war.
My main worry is that the balance conservatives have reached that allows them to simultaneously condemn the 2nd Iraq war and justify the leadup to it is that they've allowed themselves to be susceptible to the next hoax war. In other words, they didn't really learn anything from history, which means of course that they're going to repeat it.
 
It should be clear, when the inspections for WMD's where still underway, and underway unhampered, with nothing found, that the right thing to do would have been TO LET THE INSPECTIONS BE COMPLETED. By now this ought to be clear to everyone. But if the neocons would have done that, they would have lost the rationale for war.

Except they weren't unhampered, not even close.
 
^ This is what Russian propaganda looks like.

Noonereal has no way to justify the cruelty that Putin is inflicting on Ukraine, so he parrots the Russian party line as if it makes the barbarian war justifiable.

^ This is what modern McCarthyism and geopolitical vacuumism look like.

@noonereal
 
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